Job's Heart Condition

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D

DesiredHaven

Guest
#21
Although Satan sought to move God against Job "without cause", this does not necessarily mean that God Himself had no "cause" in what He allowed. IOW, although Satan's accusations against Job might have been off base, this doesn't mean that God Himself didn't see something in Job (PRIDE) which needed to be dealt with.
We know pride is evil, even as it says here...

Prov 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

And Job had a fear of the LORD.

So if the fear of the LORD is to hate evil (pride being included as evil) as it is defined

And we look here...

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan,

Hast thou considered my servant Job, that
there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

It shows Job not only feared the LORD as the LORD himself stated (even as we have the true definition of what it is to fear the LORD) but also according to the LORD that Job escheweth evil (which means to depart from or reject the same).

God said without cause though, and so that does not cut it for me I'm just not seeing it.

There are just places where I might doubt what you might be convinced of in it.






 
V

Viligant_Warrior

Guest
#22
Do you think Job, for the most part, was an innocent man in need of vindication, or do you think he was a sinner in need of God's forgiveness?
He had become prideful in his relationship with God, and even though he initially praised God in the storm, when things got worse, he began to feel sorry for himself and question why God would do things like that to His servant. Of course, God didn't do anything, though He did allow Job to be tested, and like most flesh, Job failed the test. It took his friend Elihu, a man younger than Job and his other friends, to set the record straight. Aided, of course, by the very voice of God from heaven, which would be a fearful thing to hear in Job's condition at the time, I'm sure.
 
D

DesiredHaven

Guest
#23
Job spoke what was right in the first two chapters and then went on a totally unjustifiable rant against God in which he repeatedly sought to justify himself while simultaneously condemning God. Job ended his rant, after being rebuked by both Elihu, a type of Christ, and the LORD Himself, by putting his hand over his mouth, acknowledging that he had spoken wrongfully and abhorring himself and repenting in sackcloth and ashes. As such, how can you say that Job was "put through this without cause"?

There was most definitely "a cause" and if we read both Elihu's rebuke of Job and the LORD's rebuke of Job, then that "cause" becomes crystal clear:

God was dealing with Job's PRIDE.

Again, I'll be more than happy to cite numerous verses from the ordeal in regard to the same if need be.

I am familair with you concerning these things and what you believe I am just not convinced as I have been doing my own studying as it pertains to the same, and in this I am fine with my own studies.

I think we will differ on this one, although I do understand where the argument can lie.

I just like Sophias overall, because even God said there was none like Job and does credit the man with what I believe to be his integrity, no matter if in the end (under that kind of hardship) he had a moment (where ever one might point it out) I consider Job for his patience, keeping those previous things in mind as were spoken by the LORD and well as the end of the matter.

I dont need to bring Job into debate though, I know you feel strongly about the way you are seeing it and thats fine.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#24
We know pride is evil, even as it says here...

Prov 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

And Job had a fear of the LORD.

So if the fear of the LORD is to hate evil (pride being included as evil) as it is defined

And we look here...

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan,

Hast thou considered my servant Job, that
there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

It shows Job not only feared the LORD as the LORD himself stated (even as we have the true definition of what it is to fear the LORD) but also according to the LORD that Job escheweth evil (which means to depart from or reject the same).

God said without cause though, and so that does not cut it for me I'm just not seeing it.

There are just places where I might doubt what you might be convinced of in it.






I know you well enough to have expected that response and there's certainly some validity to it. Here's the thing, though...

We need to read the entire book of Job to understand what actually transpired in relation to Job. Again, Job did lament that there was no "daysman" or mediator between both him and God who could lay his hand upon both of them in judgment and Elihu did eventually appear on the scene and declare that he was there according to Job's wish in God's stead or in God's place. Beyond this, we also need to consider that after Job had spoken, after Job's three friends had spoken and after Elihu had spoken, the LORD Himself spoke and He rebuked Job and his three friends, but He never rebuked Elihu. In fact, what Elihu spoke in relation to Job and what the LORD spoke in relation to Job are in perfect harmony with each other and they both addressed the issue of PRIDE with Job. Should we not consider the same? Anyhow, just because somebody fears the Lord and I certainly don't say that lightly or casually in that I fully believe that we should fear the Lord and I do myself, this does not mean that PRIDE never becomes an issue with said person. Just the other day, on another thread, I posted the following:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/108227-pride.html#post1907054

JesusistheChrist said:
Here's my personal take on pride:

Over a 22 year span of my life, I worked intermittently at my friend's pizzeria. Every day that I worked there, I watched as my friend poured flour into a large mixing bowl and then added water and a piece of yeast about the size of a clenched fist and mixed it all together. That little bit of yeast or that "little leaven" did its work every single time in that it "leavened the whole lump" or in that it caused the whole batch of dough to "rise up".

I personally believe that God used "leaven" as a type of sin in the Bible because it perfectly represents PRIDE or that which causes us to "rise up" in rebellion against God or to be "puffed up". Yes, I personally believe that PRIDE is at the root of EVERY SIN in that no matter what sin we ultimately commit against God it begins by us exalting our own ways (which are really the ways of Satan which we're yielding to or following) above God's ways. As such, I need to guard myself against PRIDE as much as anybody else does.
I'm fully convinced that PRIDE is at the root of all sin and Job definitely sinned, didn't he? If not, then why did the LORD rebuke him and why did he abhor himself in sackcloth and ashes and repent before the LORD?

Anyhow, it might be best to actually go over some of the things which both Elihu and the LORD Himself said to Job in order to see if PRIDE was the issue or not.
 
T

The_highwayman

Guest
#25
If you start reading at Chapter 29 through the end of the Book, you will notice that Job was very self righteous and full of pride
[See Job 32.1] this is why God Lowers the boom on him In chapters 38-42....

God needed Job to get his self out of his rigtheousness and his pride turned into humility.....this has and always been the context of the book and story....
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#26
Job chapter 32

[1] So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.
[2] Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.
[3] Also against his three friends was his wrath kindled, because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job.
[4] Now Elihu had waited till Job had spoken, because they were elder than he.
[5] When Elihu saw that there was no answer in the mouth of these three men, then his wrath was kindled.
[6] And Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite answered and said, I am young, and ye are very old; wherefore I was afraid, and durst not shew you mine opinion.
[7] I said, Days should speak, and multitude of years should teach wisdom.
[8] But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.
[9] Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgment.
[10] Therefore I said, Hearken to me; I also will shew mine opinion.
[11] Behold, I waited for your words; I gave ear to your reasons, whilst ye searched out what to say.
[12] Yea, I attended unto you, and, behold, there was none of you that convinced Job, or that answered his words:
[13] Lest ye should say, We have found out wisdom: God thrusteth him down, not man.
[14] Now he hath not directed his words against me: neither will I answer him with your speeches.
[15] They were amazed, they answered no more: they left off speaking.
[16] When I had waited, (for they spake not, but stood still, and answered no more):
[17] I said, I will answer also my part, I also will shew mine opinion.
[18] For I am full of matter, the spirit within me constraineth me.
[19] Behold, my belly is as wine which hath no vent; it is ready to burst like new bottles.
[20] I will speak, that I may be refreshed: I will open my lips and answer.
[21] Let me not, I pray you, accept any man's person, neither let me give flattering titles unto man.
[22] For I know not to give flattering titles; in so doing my maker would soon take me away.

Job chapter 33

[1] Wherefore, Job, I pray thee, hear my speeches, and hearken to all my words.
[2] Behold, now I have opened my mouth, my tongue hath spoken in my mouth.
[3] My words shall be of the uprightness of my heart: and my lips shall utter knowledge clearly.
[4] The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
[5] If thou canst answer me, set thy words in order before me, stand up.
[6] Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay.
[7] Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee.
[8] Surely thou hast spoken in mine hearing, and I have heard the voice of thy words, saying,
[9] I am clean without transgression, I am innocent; neither is there iniquity in me.
[10] Behold, he findeth occasions against me, he counteth me for his enemy,
[11] He putteth my feet in the stocks, he marketh all my paths.
[12] Behold, in this thou art not just: I will answer thee, that God is greater than man.
[13] Why dost thou strive against him? for he giveth not account of any of his matters.
[14] For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not.
[15] In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;
[16] Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,
[17] That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man.
[18] He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.
[19] He is chastened also with pain upon his bed, and the multitude of his bones with strong pain:
[20] So that his life abhorreth bread, and his soul dainty meat.
[21] His flesh is consumed away, that it cannot be seen; and his bones that were not seen stick out.
[22] Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers.
[23] If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness:
[24] Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.
[25] His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth:
[26] He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness.
[27] He looketh upon men, and if any say, I have sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not;
[28] He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.
[29] Lo, all these things worketh God oftentimes with man,
[30] To bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living.
[31] Mark well, O Job, hearken unto me: hold thy peace, and I will speak.
[32] If thou hast any thing to say, answer me: speak, for I desire to justify thee.
[33] If not, hearken unto me: hold thy peace, and I shall teach thee wisdom.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#27
If you start reading at Chapter 29 through the end of the Book, you will notice that Job was very self righteous and full of pride
[See Job 32.1] this is why God Lowers the boom on him In chapters 38-42....

God needed Job to get his self out of his rigtheousness and his pride turned into humility.....this has and always been the context of the book and story....
Precisely.
 
D

DesiredHaven

Guest
#28
Yes, I do know how you see it I am not going to argue with you over it.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#29
Yes, I do know how you see it I am not going to argue with you over it.
I'm not arguing. I'm merely saying that we need to consider the entire book of Job so that we can properly ascertain what actually transpired in relation to him. This isn't directed towards you, but over the years I've found that most people seem to read only the first two chapters of Job and the last chapter of Job. IOW, those are the only chapters that they ever talk about. Job definitely sinned and he was warned of wrath if he didn't repent:

"Because there is wrath, beware lest he take thee away with his stroke: then a great ransom cannot deliver thee." (Job 36:18)

Fortunately for Job, he did eventually repent.
 
D

DesiredHaven

Guest
#30
I'm not arguing. I'm merely saying that we need to consider the entire book of Job so that we can properly ascertain what actually transpired in relation to him. This isn't directed towards you, but over the years I've found that most people seem to read only the first two chapters of Job and the last chapter of Job. IOW, those are the only chapters that they ever talk about. Job definitely sinned and he was warned of wrath if he didn't repent:

"Because there is wrath, beware lest he take thee away with his stroke: then a great ransom cannot deliver thee." (Job 36:18)

Fortunately for Job, he did eventually repent.
Okay, I should have stated it as I did in my mail, that I did not want to discuss it any further, rather then I am not going to argue with you over it.

I know how you regard it, I would have to be blind after all these years not to know

And no I did not just read the first couple of chapters (and I'm not saying that you are saying that I did as you have clarified in your post to me that you were not really directing that to me) but just sort of adding that in there for me

Just avoiding a back and forth



(lol!)

And I dont think we have ever really went back and forth on this between ouselves

But I am fine with differing on certain points in the same.




 
T

The_highwayman

Guest
#31
This is a general statement and not made towards anyone in particular.

This is a great Example of how man made doctrine has been passed down through the years.

Many in the body are led to believe the story is about Chapters 1 and 2 and solely about Job suffering for the Lord.
However, the story has more to do with overcoming pride and self righteousness, which is exactly what the Bible states.

This is why we must study to show yourself approved in all things related to the word. If you never saw this part of the story, do not get upset, we are all learning as e go. Just be thankful you see it now and go back and reread and study with new revelation.
 
S

Sophia

Guest
#32
This is a general statement and not made towards anyone in particular.

This is a great Example of how man made doctrine has been passed down through the years.

Many in the body are led to believe the story is about Chapters 1 and 2 and solely about Job suffering for the Lord.
However, the story has more to do with overcoming pride and self righteousness, which is exactly what the Bible states.

This is why we must study to show yourself approved in all things related to the word. If you never saw this part of the story, do not get upset, we are all learning as e go. Just be thankful you see it now and go back and reread and study with new revelation.
It is mostly about false views of God.
The majority of the book is 3 guys making false statements about Job and false statements about the ways of God.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#33
This is a general statement and not made towards anyone in particular.

This is a great Example of how man made doctrine has been passed down through the years.

Many in the body are led to believe the story is about Chapters 1 and 2 and solely about Job suffering for the Lord.
However, the story has more to do with overcoming pride and self righteousness, which is exactly what the Bible states.

This is why we must study to show yourself approved in all things related to the word. If you never saw this part of the story, do not get upset, we are all learning as e go. Just be thankful you see it now and go back and reread and study with new revelation.
Amen.

There are certain portions of scripture in the Bible which are either regularly quoted totally out of context or partially quoted thereby giving them a totally different meaning than what the author intended and such admittedly ruffle my feathers in that I don't like error and deception. One such verse which I've personally heard partially quoted more times than I care to remember is the following:

"Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him:" (Job 13:15)

How many times have I heard that "quoted" to show how faithful Job allegedly was to the LORD. Why do I say "allegedly"? BECAUSE IT'S NOT THE FULL VERSE! Here's the full verse:

"Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him." (Job 13:15)

That last part makes a world of difference, doesn't it?

Job had been WICKEDLY speaking about God and he had no intention whatsoever of repenting from the same. No, he fully intended to "maintain his own ways before Him" with the "Him" being God.

Anyhow, people really do need to read the whole book. Job was WICKED...and even he abhorred himself in the end.
 
R

Rudimental

Guest
#34
I told you there is a great deal to learn from Job. :) Do you think that this mans life was just pure coincidence? Or that any of his friends and everything that happened in their lives that lead up to that point were just a happy accident?

Oh brothers, He who knows even how many hairs are on your head and each have a number. He who has a name for every star in the universe. He who has made every snowflake unique. He who has made all things that are for every purpose under the sun. Nothing that is exists if it isn't for the purpose of showing the love that is in God. Every thing that moves declares the works of His hands.

Job's life was determined before even his birth. But God made everything happen at the right time for an eternal purpose. Now it was never Gods intention for Job to even come to a position of repentance and self discovery in the way that he did. It is never Gods intention for any man to sin and have to come to repentance. What loving parent wants to lose their beloved child or see them come to harm? And if we who are evil know how to give good gifts to our children, how much more do you think that God is able to do for those of us that are in Him? Even this is manifest at the end of Job's life when the Lord blesses Job with MORE than he had in the first place.

God doesn't ask for much and gives us so much more in return. Even when we don't deserve it, He has a way to bring you back to Him or to direct your steps for those that trust in Him and will learn the lessons that are not necessarily intentionally there for our guidance and blessing but He can make them so they are. Main lesson being, humble yourself and always trust in God. Recognize Him and give Him credit for ALL things in your life and continue to bless Him even in the midst of tragedy and calamity. Because He makes all things new.

Good for Job!
 
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DesiredHaven

Guest
#35
You can make cool comparisons variously throughout Job

Ecc7:8 Better is the end of a thing than the beginning thereof:and the patient in spirit is better than the proud in spirit.

Job 42:12 So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses.

James 5:11... Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

 
T

The_highwayman

Guest
#36
Amen.

There are certain portions of scripture in the Bible which are either regularly quoted totally out of context or partially quoted thereby giving them a totally different meaning than what the author intended and such admittedly ruffle my feathers in that I don't like error and deception. One such verse which I've personally heard partially quoted more times than I care to remember is the following:

"Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him:" (Job 13:15)

How many times have I heard that "quoted" to show how faithful Job allegedly was to the LORD. Why do I say "allegedly"? BECAUSE IT'S NOT THE FULL VERSE! Here's the full verse:

"Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him." (Job 13:15)

That last part makes a world of difference, doesn't it?

Job had been WICKEDLY speaking about God and he had no intention whatsoever of repenting from the same. No, he fully intended to "maintain his own ways before Him" with the "Him" being God.

Anyhow, people really do need to read the whole book. Job was WICKED...and even he abhorred himself in the end.
Amen to all this....I know growing up in a Calvinist Bible Believers Baptist Church, they always skipped out portions of Job, that showed how self righteous he was. It was not until my parents left the Baptist denomination and we landed in a Full Gospel Church that we all learned the correct things about Job.

The real cool part of the story is seeing that when job got his self out of his righteousness how God blessed him than ever before.

I think most people have never recognized that Job is the first book in the Poetry and wisdom books, and that alone should say something to folks.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
#37
Job was questioning God, is it sin to ask questions to want ot know answers?

When God speaks to Job, Job realizes that His questions were beyond his knowledge so He was speaking of things beyond himself.

Job 42:3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.

Then he says this:

Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
Job 42:6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

He is repenting of his speaking of things he did not understand. Notice what God says next:

Job 42:7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

As far as speaking of God Job was right.

One thing is for sure Job was committing no sin that he was aware of:

Job_13:23 How many are mine iniquities and sins? make me to know my transgression and my sin.

Job was not self righteous or prideful as some here insinuate He was simply confused as to why this was taking place. He knew of nothing He had done to bring the displease of God on him and in fact had not.
 
T

The_highwayman

Guest
#38
Job was not self righteous or prideful as some here insinuate He was simply confused as to why this was taking place. He knew of nothing He had done to bring the displease of God on him and in fact had not.
Job 13.15 shows us that Job was leaning on his own understanding...
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.

If what you state is true, why Did God severely rebuke Job for his pride and self righteousness? from Chapter 38 until the end of the Book?

What is your take on on Job 32.1
So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.

What does this mean in 42.6?
Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes

A confused person does not ask for repentance do they?

Elihu is not one of the 3 that spoke wrong. Elihu took Job to task for being prideful and self righteous and had the boldness to correct Job

Job did not know the SIN he was committing until God Asked him questions, Job 42.1-7 shows us this.
 
D

DesiredHaven

Guest
#39
Heres just a few comparisons I was looking at, I prefer to compare

He said earlier,

Job 9:2 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God?


Here he says if one would contend with him (he cant answer)

Job 9:3 If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand.

Let this one answer

Job 40:1 Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said, Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

Job follows what he said previously

Job 45: Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.

Again as he had said...

Job 9:3 If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand.

Then here...

Job 40:7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.

Theres that "also" in there...

Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

Concerning justifying himself Job said this earlier

Job 9:20 If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.

Even though Job said...

Job 9:13 Whom, though I were righteous,
yet would I not answer, but I would make supplication to my judge.
 
D

DesiredHaven

Guest
#40
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[TD="class: post, colspan: 2"]Heres a couple, these arent perfectly compared or anything but there are similiarities

Job 10:4 Hast thou eyes of flesh? or seest thou as man seeth?


Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Isaiah 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief


Job 27:2As God liveth, who hath taken away my judgment; and the Almighty, who hath vexed my soul;

Acts 8:33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

Job 19:23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!

Job 40:7Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

Psalm 69:20 Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none.

Job 16:2 I have heard many such things: miserable comforters are ye all.

Job 16:20 My friends scorn me: but mine eye poureth out tears unto God.

Ecc 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


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