THE GRACE OF GOD

[mailmandan]

PART 1

You posted "The grace of God that brings salvation has "appeared" to all men. That does not mean that all men will receive God's grace through faith. Grace is received conditionally THROUGH FAITH, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9). Notice that Paul said we have access by faith into grace, not faith and works in Romans 5:2. " You are partly right.

Saved through faith, not works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and access by faith into grace in Romans 5:2 is not merely "partly" right it is 100% right. Can youshow me where Paul said "works" in Ephesians 2:8 or Romans 5:2?

YOu are wong about the works part for faith itself is a work, 1 Thess 1:3; Mk 2:15.

Why do you think that Paul said saved through faith, NOT WORKS in Ephesians 2:8,9 if faith is included in works? Paul made a clear distinction between faith and works. In 1 Thessalonians 1:3, notice the words "work of" faith, "labor of" love and "patience of" hope. These are the practical outworking of the Thessalonians' conversion. The "work" the Thessalonians do is a result or consequence of their faith. So too their "labor" flows from love and their "endurance" comes from hope. Work "of" faith does not mean that faith in essence is the work accomplished. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Their work is a result or consequence "of" their faith. The work done is "of" faith or done "out of" faith. Faith was already established at conversion and then the work followed as a result or consequence "of" faith. So 1 Thessalonians 1:3 is not simply saying that faith is just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works. I've explained this to you numerous times, but the truth just doesn't sink in. Through faith, we are trusting in Another's work (Christ's finished work of redemption). You are trying to turn work "of" faith into this work "is" faith. You make no distinction between faith and works that follow as a result of faith. Faith is the ROOT and works are the FRUIT of salvation, but you are trying to make BOTH faith AND works the root of salvation in order to accommodate your church doctrine of salvation by works, which is no salvation at all. Mark 2:15 doesn't mention faith or works. Not sure why you mentioned that verse.

But you are right in seeing that one must CONDITIONALLY have faith in order to have God's grace.

Amen! If you could stop right there, then you would be right too, but you insist on "adding works" to saved through faith, not works and access by faith into grace. We have access by FAITH INTO GRACE, not by works.

You are refuting some of your faith only buddies here who have already declared God's grace is UNconditional.

I'm not hearing any genuine believers on this forum claiming that God's grace is unconditional apart from faith.

The implication here is when one receives grace CONDITIONALLY through faith he must also CONDITIONALLY maintain that faith for losing his faith he nolonger has access to grace faithless. BY losing his faith he falls away from grace having received it in vain, Gal 5:4; 2 Cor 6:1.

From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith"--the salvation of your souls (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is through FAITH and is not by works. As I already mentioned in Galatians 5:4, the present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet? Paul makes it clear that justified by faith and justified by the law are mutually exclusive. You who attempt to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace. As in Galatians 3:3 - Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error. Paul never said you "lost your salvation" and it's all over for you. Notice that Paul said in 2 Corinthians 6:2, "now is the day of salvation" and not now is the day to regain your salvation. No loss of salvation there.

 

[mailmandan]

PART 2

As far as your error about the ''works" part;

Are you saying that Paul was in error when he said we are saved THROUGH FAITH, NOT WORKS in Ephesians 2:8 and also when he said we have access BY FAITH INTO GRACE in Romans 5:2? Did Paul forget to mention works?

I have read that some consider Paul's Roman epistle as the greatest essay ever written on faith. Paul began this great epistle with "obedience to the faith" Rom 1:5 and ended it with "obedience of faith" Rom 16:26. As it has been said before, these two great pillars of truth begin and end this great epistle. When Paul speaks of a saving faith in the book of Romans, he is obviously speaking about these two pillars of truth, he is talking about an OBEDIENT faith and NEVER says "faith only" saves.

Obedience flows from saving faith in Christ because we are saved and have been made alive in Christ, not to become saved. Although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of coming to faith in Christ as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as “obeying the gospel” (Romans 10:16), the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were obedient to God. Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR or UNTO obedience to the faith. Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus FOR or UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR good works, NOT by good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). In Romans 1:5, Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship until they produced “enough” obedience. We have access by FAITH into GRACE…(Romans 5:2) not faith "and obedience/good works." We are saved through faith in Christ FIRST, then "unto" obedience/good works. Obedience springs from and is produced by faith.

Rom 5:2 "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."

Paul did not say "we have access by faith only into this grace". No one can add to God's word. When "only" is added to this verse then one no longer has God's word but had has substituted God's word with his own philosophy. Again, the two pillars f truth of this epistles shows Paul is talking about an OBEDIENT faith that accesses grace.

Paul did not say that we have access by faith "and obedience/works" into grace. He simply said FAITH. So faith is the only word mentioned in Romans 5:2 in connection to access into grace. The obedience/works FOLLOWS having access into grace and having been saved through faith. You are putting the cart before the horse by making obedience/works "in addition" to faith precedes access into grace. I've already explained to you numerous times that what James means by "faith only" is an empty profession of faith, a dead faith that is barren of works, not a living faith that results in producing good works. What a genuine believer means by salvation through faith IN CHRIST "alone" (Ephesians 2:8,9) and what James means by faith "only" (empty profession of faith, dead faith) is not the same message. Don't let the word "alone" fool you. Faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST alone saves.

Heb 12:15 "

Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;" Paul was writing to Hebrew Christians warning them they could fail the grace of God. Paul is telling them to "look diligently", that is, to look after each other to see that not any fail God's grace. One must CONDITIONALLY maintain his faith to CONDITIONALLY remain in God's grace and the Hebrew Jews were being warned if they abandoned their faith and return back to keeping the law of Moses they will fail God's grace. " It should be noted that it was not merely the faith of those which the author questioned, but their conduct" Coffman Commentary. "Root of bitterness" their conduct will cause them to fail God's grace.

Once again, Looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God..(NKJV); comes short of the grace of God..(NAS); misses the grace of God..(NIV); fails to obtain the grace of God..(ESV). Not fails to maintain the grace of God. Just because a letter is written to Christians does not mean that everyone discussed in the letter is a Christian. In Hebrews 4:2 - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; (HEBREWS) but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For WE who have believed do enter that rest. Not all of these Hebrews were Christians but according to YOUR logic, they must be Christians because this letter is written to Christians, even though THEY did not believe.

Secondly, 2 Tim 2:1 "

Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus."

Saving grace is found "in Christ Jesus" meaning one must be "in Christ" to have grace. Not a single verse say "faith only" puts one in Christ. Gal 3:27 baptism is what puts on in Christ and submitting to baptism requires an OBEDIENT faith as Paul spoke about in Rom 1:5; Rom 16:26.

No, once again you are putting the cart before the horse. Where is baptism mentioned in Ephesians 2:8 and Romans 5:2? We are placed into the body of Christ through Spirit baptism (For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body - 1 Corinthians 12:13), not water baptism. How does this happen? Ephesians 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.. In what sense would we be water baptized "into Christ?" In the same sense that the Israelites were "baptized into Moses". Now does 1 Corinthians 10:2 teach that the Israelites were literally water baptized into the body of Moses? Absolutely not. Now for the word "enduo" (put on). This word also appears in Romans 13:14 where we read, "But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill it's lusts." Evidently then, baptism is not the only way to "put on" Christ. To "put on" Christ is to conform to Him, imitate Him. So it is in baptism; we "put on" Christ, conforming to Him in the ordinance that declares Him to be our Savior. So if we must "put on" Christ to be saved through water baptism, apparently we are not saved yet according to your argument. We must also "put on" Christ by making no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts (Romans 13:14). Right? Let's be consistent.

 

[mailmandan]

PART 3 END

Thirdly
Tts 3:7--------------justified by grace
James 2:24-----by works a man is justified
Rom 6:17,17----obey from the heart justifies

You seemingly just ignored the point I made here. From these verses It is NOT even debatable that grace/works/obeying justifies.

I didn't ignore your point at all, but you blatantly ignored my point. Once again, we are justified by His grace (Titus 3:5) through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (Romans 3:24). In regards to James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith. *You did not rightly divide the word of truth here. We obey the gospel from the heart by believing the gospel (Romans 10:10,16)

Comparing these verses, the works James speaks about are the same works Paul speaks about in Rom 6:16,17, that being OBEDIENT works, obeying from the heart.

FALSE. Paul DID NOT say that we are saved by works in Romans 6:16-17 or in Ephesians 2:8,9 or Romans 5:1,2. You continue to write a blank check with the word "obey" and "obedience" and simply fill in the amount of works you believe it takes to save yourself. *Just like the Pharisees.

You continue to ignore "servants of obedience unto righteousness" in Romans 6:16 and simply stresses "obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience that follow faith are unto righteousness, as if we are saved by works. Unbelievers are not slaves of obedience unto righteousness no matter how much so called obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to save themselves by works. There is a contrast here between servants/slaves. There are only two kinds of servants/slaves in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants/slaves of sin unto death, or servants/slaves of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation, we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness." Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel/obey from the heart. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" In 1 Peter 1:22 notice - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by FAITH. Obey from the heart/believe the gospel/freed from sin.

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not his works) is accounted for righteousness.

Since there is just one way to be saved/justified, no alternatives, then that can only mean God' grace conditionally requires man's obedient works, the work of faith.

Man's obedient works FOLLOW have been saved through FAITH. Made alive together with Christ by grace through faith, not works, created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR good works (Ephesians 2:5-10). That is the order that you have backwards.

Fourth, Gal 5:4 "

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."

The issue is not about the present tense "justified" but about the past tense "fallen". It was not just possible they could fall from grace but that ALREADY had fallen from grace. Logically for you to fall from the roof of your house, you must first climb up and be on that roof.. Likewise one must logically be IN grace in order for him to fall FROM grace. Logically one cannot fall from grace if he was never in grace. Why would Paul lie to them and tell them they had fallen from grace if they had not?

The issue is about the present tense. These Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. Paul said "YOU who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet? As in Galatians 3:3 - Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error. No final answer yet. Paul did not lie, attempting to be justified by the law would be falling away from grace, but Paul said - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind. Paul does not have confidence in hopeless people who lost their salvation.

Gal 5:10 Paul was expressing confidence, though they had fallen, that they would not continue to believe those false Judaizing teachers but those false teachers shall be judged. As Adam Clarke aptly puts it "

that ye will be none otherwise minded - that ye will be aware of the danger to which ye are exposed, that ye will retreat in time, and recover the grace which ye have lost."

Paul did not say it was a done deal that they had fallen. He did not say that was their final answer. He was making a strong point that justified by faith and justified by the law are mutually exclusive. Paul didn't say anything about recovering grace that was lost. I don't know why you are pointing the finger at the Galatians when you yourself have been looking to be saved by works all along and it looks to be your final answer.

Lastly, the 2 Cor epistle was written to Christians.."

unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia" 2 Cor 1:1. For them to be called "the church of God" "saints" means they HAD already received God's grace (Acts 18:8) but could receive that grace in vain. One cannot lose what he never received, so the implicaton is they could loos that grace that had received.

All of the epistles are written to Christians, but not everyone being discussed in the letters are Christians. 1 John 2 is written to Christians "My little children" yet in verse 19, "they went out from us, but they were not of us." They were Christians anyway because the letter is addressed to Christians? NO. So in 2 Corinthians 2:1, Paul said "lose that grace and lose your salvation?" Show me those exact words.

"

Receiving God's grace in vain was a fate with which the Corinthians were flirting in a most dangerous manner through their close association with the pagan society around them" Coffman

So in the very next verse, Paul is telling Christians who supposedly lost their salvation - "Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation?" Not at all. To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If, as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vain and worthless (1 Corinthians 15:14). But you say they are saved anyway because the letter is addressed to Christians? The people who failed to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe). This is what happens when faith is not firmly rooted and established in Christ from the start.

 

[forsha]

Tts 2:11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,"

God's grace hath appeared to all men yet all men will not be saved (Matt 7:13) so grace is received conditionally.

Rom 5:2 "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."

2 Tim 2:1 "Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus."

Eph 1:7 "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;"

Titus 3:7------------ "...being justified by his grace...."
James 2:24-------- "... by works a man is justified..."
Rom 6:17,17------"...obey from the heart...then freed from sin (justified)"

One must conditionally have an obedient faith, be in Christ to receive redemption and forgiveness that accompanies grace. Since BOTH grace and works justify then reception of God's grace is conditional upon one's continued obedient faith.

2 Cor 6:1 "We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain."

Heb 12:15 "Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;"

If one does not conditionally keep his obedient faith thereby remaining in Christ, he can then have received grace in vain and be fallen from grace...

Gal 5:4 "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."

It sounds like you are saying that you walk in the Spirit all of the time and never sin. If that's what you are saying, I thought Jesus was the only one that could that.

 

[forsha]

What a negative nelly. Gods grace does not have conditions nor does Gods grace need to be completed by mans works or efforts. Grace is how God gives the greatest gift ever given to those who deserve it least.

Just rots your socks to admit that God has done it all. Receive and have eternal life. Reject and abide in eternal condemnation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

In Eph 2:1-5, where is the receiving or rejecting? I don't see it as an offer.

 

[forsha]

Again, it's beyond any reasonable doubt that God's grace comes with conditions else: 1) all men would be saved, Tts 2:11

2) and no man would ever receive grace in vain/fall from grace, 2 Cor 6:1; Gal 5:4.

Both 1 and 2 would be true if grace were unconditional, but they are not.

This is nothing I made up, but facts about grace from the bible.

Where do you find a condition in Eph 2:1-5?

 

[forsha]

I gave a book, chapter, verse to back up my words in my initial post.

You make a personal attack on me then proceed to give an essay on your opinion.

Those who do not see God's saving grace is conditionally received and kept have closed their eyes and ears to the truth for the fables of men.


Who will receive God's grace unconditionally without faith, without repentance, without confession, without baptism? No one.

Where is the faith, repentance, confession, and baptism mentioned in Eph 2:1-5? 1 Cor 2:14 says that the carnal man will not, and indeed, can not have any of those works.

 

[Jabberjaw]

In Eph 2:1-5, where is the receiving or rejecting? I don't see it as an offer.

Where do you find a condition in Eph 2:1-5?

Where is the faith, repentance, confession, and baptism mentioned in Eph 2:1-5? 1 Cor 2:14 says that the carnal man will not, and indeed, can not have any of those works.

Who is Paul talking to? the answer is Eph. 1:1:

Ephesians 1:1 (YLT)
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, to the saints who are in Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Paul is speaking "to the saints", what makes them saints?, the answer is in verse 13:

Ephesians 1:13 (YLT)
13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth--the good news of your salvation--in whom also having believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise,


There is how they became saints, having heard the word of truth now the condition in Eph. 2:1-5 is met when they believed (recorded in Eph. 1:13) "in whome also having believed." the words "having heard", and "having believed" are the undeniable conditions

Note how many times Paul put "belief" as a condition of their "earnest" vs. 14, it is earnest for a reason.

"belief" in the "good news" means they agree and obey all the conditions required by the "good news" to have "belief" which include (as Seabass so many times has pointed out, and summarized more than once, I am cutting one occurrence from his post #75)

CHrist has said:

Jn 3:16-------------belief>>>>>>>>>>saves
Lk13:3,5-----------repentance>>>>>saves
Mt:10,32,33------confession>>>>>>saves
Mk 16:16---------baptism>>>>>>>>saves

Since there is just one way to be saved, then a NT belief must include repentance confession and baptism. In Jn 6:47 "believeth" is being used as a synecdoche (a part stands for the whole) where the part "believeth" stands for repentance, confession and baptism.

You're taking Eph. 2:1-5 out of context creating your man made pretext.

 

[Jabberjaw]

In Post #88 to forsha, I put as the last sentence "You're taking Eph. 2:1-5 out of context creating your man made pretext."

I have asked a mod to remove "your man made" from the text, it is not forsha's man made pretext but one used by many, my apology forsha.

 

[Kaycie]

You can say these verses all you want, but the fact still remains that you must take all scripture into consideration. I can say that it takes peppers, onion, ham, mushroom, and cheese to make an omelette, but what about the egg- the main ingredient? There is no getting around the fact that we must OBEY God, and continue to obey God in order to receive His grace. He is not going to put everything into one verse, there are more ingredients than just one. "Bind them all together in perfect unity." "I tell you that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." Why don't they ever use these other verses when they speak about grace?

 

[forsha]

Who is Paul talking to? the answer is Eph. 1:1:

Ephesians 1:1 (YLT)
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, to the saints who are in Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Paul is speaking "to the saints", what makes them saints?, the answer is in verse 13:

Ephesians 1:13 (YLT)
13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth--the good news of your salvation--in whom also having believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise,


There is how they became saints, having heard the word of truth now the condition in Eph. 2:1-5 is met when they believed (recorded in Eph. 1:13) "in whome also having believed." the words "having heard", and "having believed" are the undeniable conditions

Note how many times Paul put "belief" as a condition of their "earnest" vs. 14, it is earnest for a reason.

"belief" in the "good news" means they agree and obey all the conditions required by the "good news" to have "belief" which include (as Seabass so many times has pointed out, and summarized more than once, I am cutting one occurrence from his post #75)



You're taking Eph. 2:1-5 out of context creating your man made pretext.

I agree that the Ephesian letter was written to people that are already saved eternally, as is all the rest of the books. Eph 2 Paul is explaining to the already saved eternally people how they were born of the Spirit and what condition they were in being totally carnal, without the Spirit dwelling in them, just like the carnal man is explained in 1 Cor 2:14, which explains before Eph 2:15 they, as a carnal man, without the indwelling Spirit, can not discern anything of a spiritual nature, such as, believing in Christ. Believing after you are already born of the Spirit will save(timely deliver)you from the lack of knowledge, not knowing what Christ has done for you.

 

[Jabberjaw]

I agree that the Ephesian letter was written to people that are already saved eternally, as is all the rest of the books.

This is simply not true, the book of Ephesians was not just to the Ephesians, it was to you and I, as well to the non believer, it is to keep the believer believing, and to teach and/or be used to teach the non believer to believe.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV)
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Eph 2 Paul is explaining to the already saved eternally people how they were born of the Spirit and what condition they were in being totally carnal, without the Spirit dwelling in them, just like the carnal man is explained in 1 Cor 2:14, which explains before Eph 2:15 they, as a carnal man, without the indwelling Spirit, can not discern anything of a spiritual nature, such as, believing in Christ. Believing after you are already born of the Spirit will save(timely deliver)you from the lack of knowledge, not knowing what Christ has done for you.

Paul to the Corinthians in 1 Cor 2:14 is saying who the spiritual man is in verse 12 and 13, Paul is speaking of himself, an apostle given the highest order of the Holy Spirit that he may discern the revelation of God and give it to the carnal man. the Spiritual men were apostles, or men the apostles laid hands on, and prophets of which you and I (or the pope) are not.

1 Corinthians 2:12-13 (KJV)
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

the "we" Paul is speaking of are Paul and the Apostles and anyone they lay hands on, having received the Spirit of God, no man gets this today other than the Spirit Given Word Of God (the Bible), scripture is Spirit of God given (2 Tim 3:16), it is understandable by even those of youth (2 Tim 3:15):

2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV)
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

 

[forsha]

This is simply not true, the book of Ephesians was not just to the Ephesians, it was to you and I, as well to the non believer, it is to keep the believer believing, and to teach and/or be used to teach the non believer to believe.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV)
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.



Paul to the Corinthians in 1 Cor 2:14 is saying who the spiritual man is in verse 12 and 13, Paul is speaking of himself, an apostle given the highest order of the Holy Spirit that he may discern the revelation of God and give it to the carnal man. the Spiritual men were apostles, or men the apostles laid hands on, and prophets of which you and I (or the pope) are not.

1 Corinthians 2:12-13 (KJV)
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

the "we" Paul is speaking of are Paul and the Apostles and anyone they lay hands on, having received the Spirit of God, no man gets this today other than the Spirit Given Word Of God (the Bible), scripture is Spirit of God given (2 Tim 3:16), it is understandable by even those of youth (2 Tim 3:15):

2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV)
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

So, it is your thinking that Paul and the apostles are the only ones that can discern spiritual things and he is supposed to teach spiritual things to a carnal man that can not discern spiritual things. The apostles are instructed by Jesus to "feed his sheep" The carnal man is not his sheep. Why, in Romans 15:31, is Paul asking his brethren to pray that he might be delivered from them that do not believe in Judea? 2 Thess 3:2, Paul asking the brethren to pray, that he may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men, for all men have not faith. John 21:17, Feed my sheep. John 10:26-28, But ye believe not, because ye are(carnal) not of my sheep, as I said unto you, My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me, and I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. These scriptures do not indicate that Paul wanted to teach the carnal man. The gospel letters were written to his sheep instructing them how they are supposed to live their lives while here on earth.

 

[forsha]

In Post #88 to forsha, I put as the last sentence "You're taking Eph. 2:1-5 out of context creating your man made pretext."

I have asked a mod to remove "your man made" from the text, it is not forsha's man made pretext but one used by many, my apology forsha.

Do you really think that you have that power.............

 

[forsha]

This is simply not true, the book of Ephesians was not just to the Ephesians, it was to you and I, as well to the non believer, it is to keep the believer believing, and to teach and/or be used to teach the non believer to believe.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV)
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.



Paul to the Corinthians in 1 Cor 2:14 is saying who the spiritual man is in verse 12 and 13, Paul is speaking of himself, an apostle given the highest order of the Holy Spirit that he may discern the revelation of God and give it to the carnal man. the Spiritual men were apostles, or men the apostles laid hands on, and prophets of which you and I (or the pope) are not.

1 Corinthians 2:12-13 (KJV)
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

the "we" Paul is speaking of are Paul and the Apostles and anyone they lay hands on, having received the Spirit of God, no man gets this today other than the Spirit Given Word Of God (the Bible), scripture is Spirit of God given (2 Tim 3:16), it is understandable by even those of youth (2 Tim 3:15):

2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV)
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

The apostles were not instructed by Jesus to help him to get people saved eternally, but to feed his sheep, those already saved eternally.

 

[SeaBass]

Where is the faith, repentance, confession, and baptism mentioned in Eph 2:1-5? 1 Cor 2:14 says that the carnal man will not, and indeed, can not have any of those works.

Everything in the bible is not found in the first five verses of Eph 2. One must consider ALL the counsel of God, Acts 20:27 and not form a theology out of cherry-picked verses.

In 2 Cor 2 the natural man is the man NOT given miraculous powers of inspiration to receive inspiration from God's spirit but he can rad the words written down by inspired men and understand what he reads, Eph 3:3,4.

 

[SeaBass]

It sounds like you are saying that you walk in the Spirit all of the time and never sin. If that's what you are saying, I thought Jesus was the only one that could that.

No, you must have read what I posted wrong. The gist of my post is that grace is received CONDITIONALLY therefore a Christian can CONDITIONALLY fall from grace/receive grace in vain if he does not maintain the required conditions that come with God's grace.

 

[SeaBass]

PART 1

Saved through faith, not works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and access by faith into grace in Romans 5:2 is not merely "partly" right it is 100% right. Can youshow me where Paul said "works" in Ephesians 2:8 or Romans 5:2?

Why do you think that Paul said saved through faith, NOT WORKS in Ephesians 2:8,9 if faith is included in works? Paul made a clear distinction between faith and works. In 1 Thessalonians 1:3, notice the words "work of" faith, "labor of" love and "patience of" hope. These are the practical outworking of the Thessalonians' conversion. The "work" the Thessalonians do is a result or consequence of their faith. So too their "labor" flows from love and their "endurance" comes from hope. Work "of" faith does not mean that faith in essence is the work accomplished. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Their work is a result or consequence "of" their faith. The work done is "of" faith or done "out of" faith. Faith was already established at conversion and then the work followed as a result or consequence "of" faith. So 1 Thessalonians 1:3 is not simply saying that faith is just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works. I've explained this to you numerous times, but the truth just doesn't sink in. Through faith, we are trusting in Another's work (Christ's finished work of redemption). You are trying to turn work "of" faith into this work "is" faith. You make no distinction between faith and works that follow as a result of faith. Faith is the ROOT and works are the FRUIT of salvation, but you are trying to make BOTH faith AND works the root of salvation in order to accommodate your church doctrine of salvation by works, which is no salvation at all. Mark 2:15 doesn't mention faith or works. Not sure why you mentioned that verse.

Amen! If you could stop right there, then you would be right too, but you insist on "adding works" to saved through faith, not works and access by faith into grace. We have access by FAITH INTO GRACE, not by works.

I'm not hearing any genuine believers on this forum claiming that God's grace is unconditional apart from faith.

From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith"--the salvation of your souls (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is through FAITH and is not by works. As I already mentioned in Galatians 5:4, the present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet? Paul makes it clear that justified by faith and justified by the law are mutually exclusive. You who attempt to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace. As in Galatians 3:3 - Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error. Paul never said you "lost your salvation" and it's all over for you. Notice that Paul said in 2 Corinthians 6:2, "now is the day of salvation" and not now is the day to regain your salvation. No loss of salvation there.

It has been show multiple times on this forum that the "not of works" in Eph 2:9 does not exclude ALL works for that creates contradictions within the bible, even within the immediate context for it cannot exclude the good works Christian have been before ordained to do in verse 10 or the obedient works of James 2:24; Rom 6:16-18.

I dedicated an entire thread on Rom 4:4,5 showing how it does not teach "faith only", the word "only" is not even in the text but is added to the text perverting the text:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/96618-context-romans-4-4-5-a.html

....a context that is frequently taken out of context...

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Paul is contrasting "him that worketh" to "him that believeth". Since we know from verses as Jh 6:27-29 belief is itself a work then the "worketh" Paul speaks of cannot include the obedient work of believing. Paul in verse 4 tells us the type of work he is speaking about, a work where ones reward is "not reckoned of grace but of debt". If one could work to keep the law perfectly, sinlessly then his reward is not of grace but something owed him, a debt. So in verse 4 Paul is speaking about works of merit where the reward is earned and contrasting "works of merit" to "works of obedience/believing". (Paul makes this same contrast between works of merit and submitting/obeying the righteousness/commandments of God in Rom 10:3)

In the context of Rom 4, Abraham was one who did not do works of merit trying to earn his salvation for Abraham sinned but Abraham had an obedient belief. James 2:21-24 says Abraham was justified by works...Ye see then how that by works a man is justified. So the "worketh not" that Paul speaks of in Rom 4:5 CANNOT include the works James speaks of that do justify.

Since Paul and James do not contradict each other, it becomes apparent that the works Paul speaks of that do not justify are "works of merit" and the works James speaks of that do justify are obedient works.

Paul says in Rom 4:5 that -----believing>>>>>>>>justifies
James says in Jam 2 that ------works>>>>>>>>>> justify

Since there is just one way to be justified/saved, then believing is an obedient work that justifies and not a work of merit where one's reward is of debt and not of grace.


So when one takes "worketh not" of Rom 4:4 out of context and tries to make it include ALL types of works, then they are creating a whole host contradictions. They create a contradiction with James who said by works a man is justifiedand with Paul also who in Rom 6:17,18 shows that when one obeys from the heart, then he is freed from sin/justified.

Some Jews that became Christians still would cling to the OT law in some way and in Rom 4 Paul was proving to the Jewish Christians in Rome,

1) that the OT law does not justify but only allowed for perfect, flawless law-keeping where one's reward would then be of merit and not of grace, verse 3,4

2) circumcision is not necessary to be saved, verses 9-11.

Paul used Abraham as an example of one who did NOT work to keep the law perfectly so he could merit his reward but instead had an obedient faith and Paul also used Abraham as an example of one reckoned righteous is uncircumcision.

Which brings us to Rom 4:12:

"And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised."

Paul is saying the true descendants of Abraham are those who share in the same OBEDIENT faith as Abraham, those "who also walk in the steps of our father Abraham". Paul is making a contrast between an obedient faith/those that "walk" as Abraham to perfect law-keeping.

The word verb "walk" has to to with obedience, Abraham did not have a workless, dead faith only, thereby one must WALK in the steps of faith as Abraham to be a true descendant of Abraham.

Coffman Commentary (in blue) makes an interesting comment on the word 'walk':

Who also walk after the steps of that faith of our father Abraham ... These words mean "who have an obedient faith like Abraham." Abrahamic faith was not any such thing as faith ONLY, but it was a faith that walked after God's commandments, as pointed out under Romans 4:3; and Gentiles (or others) who would participate in the promise of salvation God gave through Abraham are here identified as those who "walk" in the steps of that faith, which is a way of saying they must have an obedient faith as did Abraham. Some of the so-called translations and modern speech renditions of the New Testament have butchered this verse by eliminating all reference to obedience:
For Abraham found favor with God by faith alone, before he was circumcised (The Living Word New Testament, paraphrased).

For those who have the faith of Abraham (NEB).

Because they live the same life of faith (The New Testament in Today's English).

The word "walk" or "tread" is in the Greek New Testament, and it should be in all valid translations of the word of God; but that expression is so obviously a reference to obedience that it cannot fit into the theories of salvation by faith alone; and the conviction persists that this fact influenced some of the so-called translations. It is admitted by all that Christians are saved by the same kind of faith Abraham had, before circumcision and the law; and a further study of the steps of Abraham's faith will reveal that obedience was coupled with it, and that it was by obedient faith that Abraham was justified.


At least 3 "translations" went so far as to avoid using the word "walk" with one even perverting the text to "Abraham found favor with God by faith alone". The same perversion that takes place here in changing to the text to "faith only" is the same that takes place in Rom 4:5 in adding the word "alone" to the verse. Abraham did not "believe only" in verse 5 no more than he had "faith only" in verse 12.

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As many times as the word "alone" or "only" get added to the bible, I should start a thread entitled "Does it Bother Your Conscience When You Have To ADD Words to a Verse to Get It to Jibe with Your Personal Theology?"

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Faith is work, 1 Thess 1:3; Mk 2:1-5 so one must conditionally do this work of faith in order to have access to grace. As long as some people refuse to understand that faith is a work, they will never get how God's salvation to man works....

Jn 6:27 one must work for the meat that endures unto everlasting life which the son of man gives. Christ GIVES it so it is free but one must work for it by meeting the conditionals Christ put upon this free gift He gives. You already admitted one must CONDITIONALLY have faith to receive grace and Jn 6:27 shows that the condition of faith/belief is a work. One must have an working, obedient beleif/faith that endures unto everlasting life which the son of man gives.

 

[Willie-T]

No, you must have read what I posted wrong. The gist of my post is that grace is received CONDITIONALLY therefore a Christian can CONDITIONALLY fall from grace/receive grace in vain if he does not maintain the required conditions that come with God's grace.

Oh, Wow..!

 

[SeaBass]

PART 3 END

I didn't ignore your point at all, but you blatantly ignored my point. Once again, we are justified by His grace (Titus 3:5) through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (Romans 3:24). In regards to James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith. *You did not rightly divide the word of truth here. We obey the gospel from the heart by believing the gospel (Romans 10:10,16)

FALSE. Paul DID NOT say that we are saved by works in Romans 6:16-17 or in Ephesians 2:8,9 or Romans 5:1,2. You continue to write a blank check with the word "obey" and "obedience" and simply fill in the amount of works you believe it takes to save yourself. *Just like the Pharisees.

You continue to ignore "servants of obedience unto righteousness" in Romans 6:16 and simply stresses "obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience that follow faith are unto righteousness, as if we are saved by works. Unbelievers are not slaves of obedience unto righteousness no matter how much so called obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to save themselves by works. There is a contrast here between servants/slaves. There are only two kinds of servants/slaves in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants/slaves of sin unto death, or servants/slaves of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation, we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness." Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel/obey from the heart. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" In 1 Peter 1:22 notice - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by FAITH. Obey from the heart/believe the gospel/freed from sin.

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not his works) is accounted for righteousness.

Man's obedient works FOLLOW have been saved through FAITH. Made alive together with Christ by grace through faith, not works, created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR good works (Ephesians 2:5-10). That is the order that you have backwards.

The issue is about the present tense. These Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. Paul said "YOU who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet? As in Galatians 3:3 - Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error. No final answer yet. Paul did not lie, attempting to be justified by the law would be falling away from grace, but Paul said - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind. Paul does not have confidence in hopeless people who lost their salvation.

Paul did not say it was a done deal that they had fallen. He did not say that was their final answer. He was making a strong point that justified by faith and justified by the law are mutually exclusive. Paul didn't say anything about recovering grace that was lost. I don't know why you are pointing the finger at the Galatians when you yourself have been looking to be saved by works all along and it looks to be your final answer.

All of the epistles are written to Christians, but not everyone being discussed in the letters are Christians. 1 John 2 is written to Christians "My little children" yet in verse 19, "they went out from us, but they were not of us." They were Christians anyway because the letter is addressed to Christians? NO. So in 2 Corinthians 2:1, Paul said "lose that grace and lose your salvation?" Show me those exact words.

So in the very next verse, Paul is telling Christians who supposedly lost their salvation - "Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation?" Not at all. To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If, as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vain and worthless (1 Corinthians 15:14). But you say they are saved anyway because the letter is addressed to Christians? The people who failed to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe). This is what happens when faith is not firmly rooted and established in Christ from the start.

I posted;


Tts 3:7--------------justified by grace
James 2:24-----by works a man is justified
Rom 6:17,17----obey from the heart justifies


1) since the bible does not contradict itself
2) since there is just one way to be saved
3) since all verses harmonize with each other

The only logical conclusion that can be made is that since grace justifies and works/obeying justifies then works/obedience MUST be a part of God's grace. It goes further to prove (along with Jn 6:27) that faith/belief is a work that must be done to CONDITIONALLY access grace, Rom 5:2. People can argue this but are only arguing to hear themselves argue.

James 2:24--------by works a man is >>>>>>>> justified
Rom 6:17,18------obey from the heart>>>>>>>>freed from sin

James uses 'justify' just as Paul did where justify means to be freed from sin.

Furthermore, in James 2:24 James is contrasting "works" FROM "faith only" in the verse. Just further proof that faith is a work and the work of faith is contrasted from "faith only".

Just as no one cannot redefine "justify" as used by James, one also cannot change the order of events in Rom 6:17,18:

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

The order of events:

1) servants of sin
2) obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine
3) THEN freed from sin becoming servants of righteousness.

Nothing in verse 16 changes the clear order of verses 17, 18.

All Paul is saying in verse 16 is you serve either one of two masters, you serve either;

1) sin unto death

or

2) obedience unto righteousness

I serve #2. Paul gave no other options than these 2 and the troubling thing is that the "faith only" doctrine rule out #2 for that that go by that man-made doctrine.

Seems what you are ignoring in verse 16 is Paul said serve "obedience UNTO righteousness". Paul did NOT say serve obedience because you already are righteous, this would contradict what he says in the next two verses where he put "obeyed" BEFORE being freed from sin.

So are you a servant of sin unto death or a servant of obedience UNTO righteousness?

===========================

In Gal 5:4 the issue is the past tense of "fallen" they had ALREADY fallen from grace.

You posted "Paul said "YOU who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet?"

Yes, the PAST TENSE of "fallen" shows they have fully come to that place of fallen away from grace.

You post "Paul did not say it was a done deal that they had fallen."

Yes he did for he used the past tense of fallen. Not that they MIGHT POTENTIALLY fall sometime in the future but have ALREADY fallen.