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Nov 26, 2011
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#41
You better look above and see what the Bible says man...your pure heart is nothing more than dirty rags, your pure heart will not save you and is counted as self righteous works. Only the work the shed blood can make of Jesus makes you righteous[Rom 5.9-[SUP]9 [/SUP]Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him]
I have never claimed that it is a "pure heart" which is what saves. A pure heart is the RESULT of a genuine salvation.

It is Jesus that saves us through the Spirit of His life and through the Ministry of Reconciliation.

You read my words and your brainwashed mind twists them into meaning something else which you then speak against.

A pure heart is nothing more that dirty rags? What a horrible statement.

Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

The fine linen is filthy rags? You must be out of your mind to make such statements. Your words are a perfect example of how a faulty foundation results in absurdity.

When the Bible speaks of "filthy rags" the context is that is an apostate Israel who were in rebellion to God. Their perception of righteousness and thus their deeds were as filthy rags before God, not the righteousness of the Saints.

You really think that Abel's sacrifice to God by which he proved he was righteous was a filthy rag? Come on, think man!

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Go read Isaiah chapter 64 and instead of isolating verse 6 from its context read the WHOLE passage.

People like you just parrot the out of context isolated proof texts which you have been brainwashed with by the false teachers you follow. If you actually read the Bible with an honest heart and open ear you would NEVER conclude such a thing as the righteousness of the saints is as filthy rags.

Justified is being made righteous...Bible 101 man....Righteousness is a gift to you and not based on a single thing you do, you cannot obey enough to become righteous before God, you cannot have a pure enough heart to become righteous, all your theology does is make you a god unto your self, you make yourself a savior, somehow thinking that you have a role to play in God's simple plan of redemtionm....No sir, we have nothing to do, except believe, by faith, what Jesus did for us.
Again, you lack a complete understanding of what I am talking about and thus twist it into some kind of strawman. Justification is simply being counted as righteous by God despite our past transgression against God. In other words justification is related to the forgiveness of sins EXACTLY as David taught.

I pointed it out before that Paul refers to Psalm 32:1-2 in Romans 4.

Psa 32:1 A Psalm of David, Maschil. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
Psa 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

We see here how David connects the forgiveness of sins to a spirit where there is no guile or deceit. In other words God is willing to forgive those whom come clean and forsake their filthiness. God counts their FAITH as righteousness is spite of their past sins which are covered. That is why the Bible says things like...

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

We come clean with God about our past sin and WALK in the light. IF we do this then God is willing to cleanse us of all sin by the blood of Christ.

How hard it that to understand? It isn't really.

So according to you, Romans 5, and most of the Epistles is an invention of Man.
N. According to you, an individual who will not DIRECTLY address the things I write, who instead twists them into some strawman, which you then proceed to make unsubstantiated claims about.

You are being completely dishonest to operate in such a manner. Romans 5 means what it says, it just doesn't mean what you THINK it says because you are under strong delusion.

It is counted for righteousness and In Abraham's case it was because he was not under the law, so his SINS were not imputed into him[See Romans5.13]
Abraham was under the law of conscience. Death still reigned from Adam to Moses because they could sin could still occasion by the law of conscience and still work death. Thus they may not have sinned in the same manner as Adam (violate a direct commandment) but they could still sin.

The faith of Abraham was counted for righteousness because it was a GENUINE FAITH that TRUSTED and WALKED.

Rom 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Abraham WALKED IN THE STEPS of his genuine faith.

Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

Abraham's faith was reckoned as righteousness because he staggered not and was fully pursuaded and thus he WALKED by his faith. That is why it was reckoned as righteousness.

Yet that is not what the "Imputed Righteousness of Christ" doctrine teaches. That doctrine teaches that the obedient track record of Jesus is credited to the believers account. In other words it teaches a MORAL TRANSFER that has NOTHING to do with any walk. People are taught to simply "trust in the transfer" and PRESTO they are righteous. The Bible doesn't teach anything like that anywhere.

Furthermore Paul is trying to show you, using Abraham as an example, that all you have to do is have faith in what Jesus Did on the cross to become righteous....IOW, he is showing you that exercising simple faith like Abraham's in what God did for him and us, makes you righteous...Abrahams works did not amke him righteous, his simple believing faith made him righteous...he did not lose anything when he missed it, because righteousness is a position not based on personal performance...
Pure rhetoric without any basis in the Bible whatsoever.

Faith is a WALK for it is OBEDIENCE FROM THE HEART because we FULLY TRUST and thus WE PERFORM. Just like Noah, Abraham and Abel. They were all DOERS.

You are claiming that one simply "trusts in what Jesus did on the cross" and PRESTO one is righteous. That is NONSENSE because Jesus did not do on the cross what you think He did. Penal Substitution is a 400 year old false doctrine and you are putting your faith in a 400 year old fable invented by men.

Your adherence to this fable forces you to view the "death of Christ" as effecting a PROVISION which you merely "trust in" which then CLOAKS YOUR WICKEDNESS. It is satanic deception you have fallen for, you have fallen for it hook, line and sinker and even contend to others to fall for it. How sad.

Gal 2.21 says [SUP]21 [/SUP]I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Righteousness is not by the law because the law only regulates the outer man.

I can obey "thou shalt not kill" but that does not make me righteous. I can still have murder in the heart.

True righteousness is via GRACE THROUGH FAITH because instead of being regulated by "rules and regulations" we are regulated by a "faith that works by love."

Paul was DEAD TO THE LAW that he might LIVE UNTO GOD.

Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Compare to...

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

That is what Paul is speaking about, not some notion of "do nothing and trust in a provision."

Yet somehow you cannot see the plainly obvious. The issue is HEART PURITY.

Read the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5. There Jesus raises the issue of "do not commit adultery" and "do not commit murder" and Jesus explicitly teaches that "outward observance" is not genuine righteousness. There must be INWARD OBSERVANCE via a FAITH THAT WORKS BY LOVE. That is why Jesus said it is the PURE IN HEART who will see God.

Jesus didn't teach that righteousness is premised in an abstract legal provision which cloaks an actual manifest filthy rags state. How can you fall for such an obvious deception?
.
You are frustrating the grace of God , because you do not understand that your are given the gift of eternal life and the gift of righteousness through God great grace and receive those things by the simple saving faith every man is given....by what Jesus and him alone and his shed blood did for you...

That is the gospel....not obedience, not a heart condition, not anything elwe you add to it....your self righteous salvation is a lie from hell...
No.

I am frustrating your perverted understanding of the grace of God. The grace of God that brings salvation teaches us...

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

The grace you believe in is a sin cloak, a legal fiction, an absurd magical inference, a deception.

You have completely bought into the 400 year old deception of the Reformers and by doing so you have been mentally immunised to the truth. It is a shame because it does not have to be that way. You can still wake up and I hope you do.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#42
Absolutely

The power of sin is the law(or should we say the penalty attached to the law if you break it) 1Cor15:56

Therefore, with the true power of sin removed from the Christian, sin shall not be their master for they are not under law but under grace Rom 6:14

The core of Paul's message of grace

Some people kid themselves they can, in reality live a good enough life under the law to attain to Heaven under it. But as the pass mark under the law of obedience is 100%, no slip ups they cannot of course
You have completely missed the point.

The issue has nothing to do with "living a good life under the law to attain heaven."

The issue has EVERYTHING to do with "loving one another with a pure heart having had our souls purified through obedience to the truth."

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

What many people do is confuse the "law of Moses" with "obedience from the heart/wholehearted yielding to the grace of God." The underlying premises upon which many of the modern false doctrine are set upon set people up to fall into this confusing trap, a trap by which their eyes are closed to the very plain and obvious truth. It is very similar to how the Pharisees would reject Jesus in spite of a blind man being healed and a message preached pertaining to true righteousness. They were all caught up in their religion and rejected what was right in front of them. Very sad.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#43
However, the Bible's take on human "common sense" is somewhat different:

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing,
but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. . .the world through its wisdom
did not know God. . .but we preach Christ crucified:. . .foolishness to Gentiles, but
to those whom God has called. . .Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."

(1Co 1:18, 21, 23-24)
'


The passage doesn't say to reject common sense. It simply states that those whom are perishing perceive the truth as foolishness.

You are clearly one of those people because I can quote very plain scriptures which pertain to the cessation of all willful sin in salvation and you will view it as foolishness and favour 400 year old Reformed doctrine.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.


". . .the things that come from the Spirit of God. . .are foolishness to him."
(1Co 2:14)

"For the wisdom ("common sense") of this world is foolishness in God's sight." (1Co 3:19)

The world in general rejects common sense or reason as it pertains to the things of God. So does institutional religious Christianity.

Jesus said, "go and sin no more" and modern institutional religions says, "we sin every day in thought word and deed."

Modern institutional religion preaches sin cloaks, moral transfers, sin debt paid which contradicts sin being forgiven and much much more.

The contends for obedience from the heart, a cessation of sin and purity of heart in salvation, things which are FOOLISHNESS to those whom are perishing in religious Babylon.
 
T

The_highwayman

Guest
#44
Righteousness is actually DOING WHAT IS RIGHT from a faith that works by love.

It isn't?

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

It is very obvious that righteousness is rooted in a faith that works by love and it is by faith that we abide in the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ walking after the Spirit. It is in this manner that righteousness is FULFILLED in us (Rom 8:1-4).

Yet you are forced to reject that because you want to believe in the fable of Penal Substitution and the doctrine of "Imputed Righteousness of Christ."



The gift is the DYNAMIC OF TRANSFORMATION not some ABSTRACT PROVISION.

The gift of God is "salvation by grace THROUGH faith" and "eternal life THROUGH Jesus Christ." The THROUGH is the ABIDING or YIELDING WHOLEHEARTEDLY in the grace of God. Grace is the divine influence of God upon our hearts.

Noah was saved by grace through faith because Noah obeyed God yielding to God's lead. It was through the grace of God that Noah was warned of the impending flood and given instruction on how to be preserved through it. It was through faith that Noah "worked together with God" and produced the ark.

This is why Jesus taught that we must be DOERS and not hearers only. If one does not "work together with God" then the grace of God is received to no working effect (2Cor 6:1).

Nothing in Romans 5:17-21 refutes that. You just quote a passage of the Bible and then make a statement to the effect of "we don't have to DO anything because that is adding to the cross." Where does the Bible teach anything even remotely close to what you claim? Jesus Himself, the founder of Christianity said that we must be doers.

Somehow you are able to twist the words of Paul in your mind in order to refute the plain teachings of Jesus. Is your heart so seared that you can do such a thing without batting an eyelid?
Our difference is that I know I am made righteous by what Jesus did for me and you keep struggling to attain righteousness on your own, because you cannot fathom grace...

I also NEVER stated I get to sit back and do nothing, nope far from it, but because I know my SIN problem has been taken care of, I am free to go out and do the works he needs me to do and life the life he has called me to live....I do not strive to be righteous, because my works do not make me righteous, Jesus made me righteous...

I am not a doer of the word to attain righteousness as you keep bleating you do...I am a doer of the word, because it is an act of love and obedience...
 
T

The_highwayman

Guest
#45
You have completely missed the point.

The issue has nothing to do with "living a good life under the law to attain heaven."

The issue has EVERYTHING to do with "loving one another with a pure heart having had our souls purified through obedience to the truth."

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

What many people do is confuse the "law of Moses" with "obedience from the heart/wholehearted yielding to the grace of God." The underlying premises upon which many of the modern false doctrine are set upon set people up to fall into this confusing trap, a trap by which their eyes are closed to the very plain and obvious truth. It is very similar to how the Pharisees would reject Jesus in spite of a blind man being healed and a message preached pertaining to true righteousness. They were all caught up in their religion and rejected what was right in front of them. Very sad.
you keep stating righteousness is sanctification and it is not...righteousness is not works, it is a position...at it simplest core it is having your relationship with God restored through Jesus Christ....

Righteousness is justification ...

works based salvation as you bleat at us cannot fathom this, because they cannot fathom true grace...if anyone is blind, prideful and being a pharisee....yeah just keep beating that chest before God telling him what a mess in SIN you are....

God is stating to you today.....SON, I dealt with your SINs over 2,000 years ago, why are you still dealing with it and trying to attain what my SON gave you!?!?
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
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#46
Skinski7 said:
Elin said:
Skinski7 said:
Thus under this "cloak" provided by the Penal Substitution model the sinner can sin without undergoing the penalty for the sin.

That is a license to sin.
No more than a caterpillar (unregenerate) being transformed (metamorphoo, Ro 12:2) into a butterfly (regenerate) is a license to return to caterpillar food.

And anyone who thinks this is what it means to be a butterfly does not understand the new nature of the butterfly.
"Common Sense" is simply an allusion to reasonable thinking. Whether it be "common" in the sense of "popularity" is not the issue, rather it is "common" in the sense that we are all endowed with an ability to reason.
However, the Bible's take on human "common sense" is somewhat different:

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing,
but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. . .the world through its wisdom
did not know God. . .but we preach Christ crucified:. . .foolishness to Gentiles, but
to those whom God has called. . .Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."

(1Co 1:18, 21, 23-24)
The passage doesn't say to reject common sense. It simply states that
those whom are perishing perceive the truth as foolishness.
Yep. . .just like I said. . .and that would be the whole world, except for believers,
and that perception of foolishness is based in what they see as obvious "common sense."

You are clearly one of those people because I can quote very plain
scriptures which pertain to the cessation of all willful sin in salvation and
you will view it as foolishness
That's caterpillar talk. . .which doesn't understand the new nature of the regenerated, and sees it as a license to sin.

". . .the things that come from the Spirit of God. . .are foolishness to him." (1Co 2:14)

"For the wisdom ("common sense") of this world is foolishness in God's sight." (1Co 3:19)
The world in general rejects common sense or reason as it pertains to the things of God.
Nope. . .the world in general relies on its "common sense". . .which perceives God's truth as foolishness.

I do not base God's truth in human "common sense."

There is nothing "common" about God's truth. . .it is anything but common.

I base God's truth only in his special divine revelation given in the Scriptures,
and do not use human "common sense" to try to overturn them.


And so I repeat:

The whole OT sin sacrifice (propitiation) system was substitutionary atonement.

"He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities. . .
the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."
(Isa 53:5-6)

"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree."
(2Pe 2:24)

"And he is the propitiation
(atoning sacrifice) for our sins." (1Jn 2:2)

". . .he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation
(atoning sacrifice) for our sins." (1Jn 4:10)

"God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement (propitiation) through faith in his blood (death)."
(Ro 3:25)

Wounding--bruising--death (capital punishment) is penal,
for our sins is substitutionary,
as propitiation is atonement.
 
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Nov 26, 2011
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#47
Our difference is that I know I am made righteous by what Jesus did for me and you keep struggling to attain righteousness on your own, because you cannot fathom grace...
There is no "struggling to attain righteousness on one's own." Those are YOUR words produced by YOUR mind premised upon YOUR misconception.

I never claim anywhere that we do anything on "our own," so please don't twist my words in claiming that I do.

All you have done is twist what I have written into something else entirely. In other words you read what I write, turn it into a fiction, then address the fiction.

Noah did not build the ark on his own. Abraham did not walk alone. The apostles did not walk alone. In all cases they FOLLOWED God.

Grace leads and we follow and thus we WORK TOGETHER with God lest grace is received in vain.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

That is how we are made the righteousness of God IN Him. It is the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ in which we abide by WALKING after the Spirit (Rom 8:1-4).

Somehow you are compelled to twist that simple truth into "going it alone." We don't do ANYTHING alone. Jesus was very clear...

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Yet abiding is a CHOICE we make and it is something we have to actually do.


I also NEVER stated I get to sit back and do nothing, nope far from it, but because I know my SIN problem has been taken care of, I am free to go out and do the works he needs me to do and life the life he has called me to live....I do not strive to be righteous, because my works do not make me righteous, Jesus made me righteous...
If your sin problem has been taken care apart from any "doing" then surely you must reject the notion that "obedience to the truth by the Spirit is what purifies the soul" (1Pet 1:21-22) or that "obedience to the truth sets one free from sin" (Rom 6:17-18) because in the Bible in order to be forgiven and cleansed of all sin one must be WALKING in the light as He is in the light (1oh 1:7-10).

Again you twist my words in saying, "because my works do not make me righteous." I never claimed anyone's works made them righteous, rather righteousness is produced from the DYNAMIC of "grace through faith" ie. wholehearted yielding to the grace of God. Deeds are simply the natural results of genuine faith because genuine faith is a working/active faith. You appear to be unable to grasp this very simple point.

I am not a doer of the word to attain righteousness as you keep bleating you do...I am a doer of the word, because it is an act of love and obedience...
Yet are you actually a "doer of the word" because Reformed theology teaches that we sin every day in thought, word, and deed? Do you not believe that your "doing" is as filthy rags? Do you not believe that it is the "doing of Jesus" which has been credited to your account because you "can't do"? If that is the case then what is this talk of "love and obedience" you speak about?

Anyway, the Bible teaches that being "made the righteousness of God IN Him" is attained through "working together with God" (2Cor 6:1). In other words is is through WALKING after the Spirit or by humbly submitting ourselves to God. This being the transformation wrought by grace through faith.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

It is the implanted word which saves our souls. In order to receive the implanted word we have to forsake our rebellion and YIELD to God. Turning from sin to righteousness is DOING something.

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Notice James doesn't say "trust in the Finished Work of the Cross and don't do anything to add to it." People like you say that, not the Bible.

James tells people to lay aside all their wickedness and to humbly receive the word that can save them. In other words James is compelling people to turn from walking their own way in sin and to yield themselves to the Word wholeheartedly.

Let us see if you can make a response with you having not twist my words by implying that I reject grace. We have to submit ourselves to grace in order for grace to be effectual in the transformation of our hearts. That "submission" part as a CONDITION of salvation appears to be the point you reject.You appear to believe that "submission" comes later as a result of merely "trusting in what Jesus did on the cross." If that was the case there would be no call in the Bible to forsake wickedness as it pertains to repentance.
 
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S

Sophia

Guest
#48
I almost agree with skinski, but then he takes it too far.
Christ's sacrifice was more than a mere example.

The Temple sacrifices were examples,
and they all point to Christ.
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#49
I made it to Skin's third line, and couldn't make myself read any more.
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
4,889
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#50
Are you sure about that?

The whole OT sin sacrifice (propitiation) system was substitutionary atonement.

"He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities. . .
the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."
(Isa 53:5-6)

"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree."
(2Pe 2:24)

"And he is the propitiation
(atoning sacrifice) for our sins." (1Jn 2:2)

". . .he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation
(atoning sacrifice) for our sins." (1Jn 4:10)

"God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement (propitiation) through faith in his blood." (Ro 3:25)
You forgot the scapegoat... where does the term scapegoat come from --->

Leviticus 16:10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#51

I base God's truth only in his special divine revelation given in the Scriptures,
and do not use human "common sense" to try to overturn them.
Human reason from an honest heart AFFIRMS the divine revelation of the Bible. It is a carnal mind that would overturn it. Hence we are urged to lay aside all wickedness and receive humbly the truth which saves.

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

The doctrine you believe Elin teaches INABILITY and thus one cannot lay apart all filthiness BEFORE receiving the implanted word. Isn't that right? Tell me it is not so?

Answer that question if you dare.

And so I repeat:

The whole OT sin sacrifice (propitiation) system was substitutionary atonement.

"He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities. . . [It doesn't say substitute]
the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." (Isa 53:5-6) [It doesn't say substitute]

"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree."
(2Pe 2:24) [It doesn't say substitute]

"And he is the propitiation
(atoning sacrifice) for our sins." (1Jn 2:2) [It doesn't say substitute]

". . .he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation
(atoning sacrifice) for our sins." (1Jn 4:10) [It doesn't say substitute]

"God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement (propitiation) through faith in his blood (death)."
(Ro 3:25) [It doesn't say substitute]

Wounding--bruising--death (capital punishment) is penal,
for our sins is substitutionary,
as propitiation is atonement. [It is YOU who are saying substitute, not the Bible - The context of the Bible is "on our behalf" NOT "substitute." Jesus was not punished in our place, Jesus suffered and was punished on our behalf and as an example for us to follow. The wrath of God was not poured out on Jesus, the wrath of MEN was poured out on Jesus.

If Jesus "paid the sin debt due" then sins are not forgiven, they are merely paid for.

Sin debt paid for = sins not forgiven. This one point all by itself unravels Penal Substitution entirely and I notice that not a single person in this thread has dared address this point so far.
Jesus suffered on our behalf not as our substitute. If Jesus "suffered as our substitute" then we would not be called to "suffer WITH Him."

Jesus taught...

Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mar 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

The blood of Jesus is the means of having our past sins cleansed when we approach God in repentance and faith. God freely forgives sins, sins are not "paid for."
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
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#52
Jesus suffered on our behalf not as our substitute.
That's what "behalf" means.

The following speaks for itself:

The whole OT sin sacrifice (propitiation) system was substitutionary atonement.

"He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities. . .
the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."
(Isa 53:5-6)

"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree."
(2Pe 2:24)

"And he is the propitiation
(atoning sacrifice) for our sins." (1Jn 2:2)

". . .he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation
(atoning sacrifice) for our sins." (1Jn 4:10)

"God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement (propitiation) through faith in his blood (death)."
(Ro 3:25)

Wounding--bruising--death (capital punishment) is penal,
for our sins is substitutionary,
as propitiation is atonement.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#53
I almost agree with skinski, but then he takes it too far.
Christ's sacrifice was more than a mere example.

The Temple sacrifices were examples,
and they all point to Christ.
It was much more than a mere example which is why the early Church also expounded on Recapitulation, Christus Victor and Ransom, and not only on the Moral Influence.

Please take a look at...
Atonement in Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The death of Christ has many aspects to it. Penal Substitution is NOT one of them.

The death of Christ served to purchase the Church and it is in that purchase that we are able to find release from the dominion of sin. Without that purchase there would be no forgiveness of sins.

The death of Christ put into effect the New Covenant because a covenant is only of effect after one has died. God has used the blood of Jesus as His signature, so to speak, to guarantee His part of the covenant, we are thus able to enter into that covenant with full confidence.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

The shedding of blood was necessary because sins have to be purged from our conscience. The death of Christ is simply the means God has elected to do this. It is God's way of dealing with sins once and for all.

Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

What has happened in the modern day is that people have been deceived into believing in a false version of why Jesus died. This false version generally teaches that the basis of reconciliation to God is through Jesus "paying the sin debt due" by undergoing the full wrath of God and that the "righteousness of Jesus is credited to the believers account" thus God no longer sees the wicked sinner but rather sees Jesus instead.

The deception is this legal swap doctrine which serves to substitute what the Bible actually teaches. This is why people under this delusion can teach things like "unconditional eternal security." Instead of viewing salvation as encompassing a true purging of evil within which results in heart purity, they view salvation as a mere PROVISION which puts one in a POSITION which is totally disconnected from the true condition of the heart. In other words they utterly reject manifest heart purity in salvation.

The tragedy is that so many people believe in this Penal Substitution doctrine even though it is only FOUR HUNDRED years old and anyone can look up the history of it easily to confirm that fact. Yet people will spite the obvious and go to their graves contending for a fiction rather than simply yield to what the Bible says.

Jesus died to effect a true redemption from all iniquity and to make us pure, that we would be zealous of righteousness. That is what the Bible teaches. The Penal Substitution people don't teach that because if you ask them they believe that they sin every day in thought, word and deed. They believe that all their righteousness is as filthy rags. They believe in "sin you will and sin you must." Bring up the subject of heart purity and a cessation from sin and they become riled up and will condemn you with accusations of "works salvation," "adding to the cross," "do you sin" and so on. A true tragedy of epic proportions.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#54
Elin,

You cannot quote a single passage in the Bible which actually teaches the Penal Substitution model.

Sure you can quote Bible verses, but none of them say what you want them to say.

Again,

Sins paid for = Sins not forgiven.


The Penal-Substitution Theory of the atonement was formulated by the 16th century Reformers as an extension of Anselm's Satisfaction theory. Anselm's theory was correct in introducing the satisfaction aspect of Christ's work and its necessity; however the Reformers saw it as insufficient because it was referenced to God's honor rather than his justice and holiness and was couched more in terms of a commercial transaction than a penal substitution. This Reformed view says simply that Christ died for man, in man's place, taking his sins and bearing them for him. The bearing of man's sins takes the punishment for them and sets the believer free from the penal demands of the law: The righteousness of the law and the holiness of God are satisfied by this substitution.
Penal substitutionary atonement - Theopedia, an encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#55
Too bad some of you guys can't make it to our church........ We are having Michael Hardin speaking Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, two weeks from now. If you know Michael's work, then you know what I mean.
 
T

The_highwayman

Guest
#56
You continually state your works do not make you righteous, then you state this:

Anyway, the Bible teaches that being "made the righteousness of God IN Him" is attained through "working together with God" (2Cor 6:1).
God does not need your help making you righteous because his SON, Jesus did!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WE do NOT have any part in making us righteous and since you state it in black and white, we can tell you, that you are nothing but a self righteous works based salvation believer...




Yet are you actually a "doer of the word" because Reformed theology teaches that we sin every day in thought, word, and deed? Do you not believe that your "doing" is as filthy rags?
Ok so you do not understand that SIN is a choice either....
 
T

The_highwayman

Guest
#57
Jesus suffered on our behalf not as our substitute. If Jesus "suffered as our substitute" then we would not be called to "suffer WITH Him."
WOW..all I can say is WOW.....

Actually I can say something....that you should let sink into your spirit regarding all your comments:


Even a fool, when he holds his peace, is counted wise
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#58
You continually state your works do not make you righteous, then you state this:

Originally Posted by Skinski7

Anyway, the Bible teaches that being "made the righteousness of God IN Him" is attained through "working together with God" (2Cor 6:1).
God does not need your help making you righteous because his SON, Jesus did!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WE do NOT have any part in making us righteous and since you state it in black and white, we can tell you, that you are nothing but a self righteous works based salvation believer...
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Obeying from the heart that form of doctrine once delivered has nothing to do with being set free from sin and becoming a servant of righteousness?

The Bible says "obedience unto righteousness."

What do you do with that? Cross it out with a black marker? Pretend that Paul did not write that?

You are claiming "positional righteousness unto obedience." The Bible doesn't say that anywhere. All you appear to have is unscriptural rhetoric.

[/quote]


Yet are you actually a "doer of the word" because Reformed theology teaches that we sin every day in thought, word, and deed? Do you not believe that your "doing" is as filthy rags?
Ok so you do not understand that SIN is a choice either....[/QUOTE]

I was asking you a question. A question you chose not to answer but instead imply that I don't believe sin is a choice. Where on earth did you get that from?

Sin (unto death) is always a choice and that is why God holds us accountable for choosing to sin.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#59
WOW..all I can say is WOW.....

Actually I can say something....that you should let sink into your spirit regarding all your comments:


Even a fool, when he holds his peace, is counted wise
All you have is rhetoric and it appears not much else. The truth utterly destroys lies when the root of lies are exposed. That is what I have been doing in this thread.

Sins paid for = sins not forgiven.

Would you care to deal with that fact?

As for being called to suffer with Jesus here is what Peter wrote...

Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Penal Substitution teaches...

Christ died for man, in man's place, taking his sins and bearing them for him. The bearing of man's sins takes the punishment for them and sets the believer free from the penal demands of the law
Penal substitutionary atonement - Theopedia, an encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity

The penalty is not forgiven but PAID FOR under the Penal Substitution model. The Bible does not teach that anywhere.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,612
274
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#60
Is that all you have to offer to the conversation?

I know it is much easier to make statements like that as opposed to addressing the logical inconsistencies of Penal Substitution. The Pharisees would treat Jesus in a similar manner in the way they would make blanket pronouncements in spite of the obvious truth evident right in front of them.
I have talked much to souls like yours in my days regarding these issues. Seeing that others, like Elin, are doing a great job to refute your errors I have little or nothing to add seeing it would just be repetitive.

Interesting that you brought up the Pharisees, they were/are in full agreement with you regarding the matter of free will, and that ones efforts and strivings are enough to make one righteous. To the rationalist mind I am sure that penal substitution, which Paul taught, consists of "logical inconsistencies", seeing they can only believe what their own intellect perceives as "logical" enough. For wesleyans and finneyites alike the gracious doctrine of penal substitution is a great threat to their own pride, since it makes boasting in self impossible.

Next.
 
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