ATONEMENT

[Skinski7]

For clarity, here is what the Wesminster Confession of Faith teaches on Justification...

V. God does continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified;[14] and although they can never fall from the state of justification,[15] yet they may, by their sins, fall under God's fatherly displeasure, and not have the light of His countenance restored unto them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance.[16]

Westminster Confession of Faith

Notice that the justification taught has NOTHING to do with a "faith that works by love" being reckoned as righteousness. That is why they can say that one can remain in a justified state whilst sinning. The reason they believe this is because of the doctrine of Penal Substitution where the basis of justification is purely a forensic issue, namely....


Sin ---------------> transferred ---------------> Jesus

Jesus is then punished for the sins and the wrath of God is abated (it cannot be made due again).

Righteousness of Jesus ------------------> transferreed -------------> Believer

The "obedience of Jesus" is credited to the believers account. Thus the "obedience of Jesus" is a SUBSTITUTE for the "obedience of the Christian." As it pertains to Justification obedience is then a non-issue. One is "saved" whilst in disobedience, ie. saved IN sin.

The above is the teaching which damns many people because it negates the necessity of a forsaking of rebellion to God and it also negates the necessity of heart purity in salvation. Salvation is redefined to be a purely forensic position apart from the true state of the heart. Thus an inwardly wicked person can be saved under this doctrine. People can sin and not surely die.

 

[The_highwayman]

For clarity, here is what the Wesminster Confession of Faith teaches on Justification...


Westminster Confession of Faith

Notice that the justification taught has NOTHING to do with a "faith that works by love" being reckoned as righteousness. That is why they can say that one can remain in a justified state whilst sinning. The reason they believe this is because of the doctrine of Penal Substitution where the basis of justification is purely a forensic issue, namely....


Sin ---------------> transferred ---------------> Jesus

Jesus is then punished for the sins and the wrath of God is abated (it cannot be made due again).

Righteousness of Jesus ------------------> transferreed -------------> Believer

The "obedience of Jesus" is credited to the believers account. Thus the "obedience of Jesus" is a SUBSTITUTE for the "obedience of the Christian." As it pertains to Justification obedience is then a non-issue. One is "saved" whilst in disobedience, ie. saved IN sin.

The above is the teaching which damns many people because it negates the necessity of a forsaking of rebellion to God and it also negates the necessity of heart purity in salvation. Salvation is redefined to be a purely forensic position apart from the true state of the heart. Thus an inwardly wicked person can be saved under this doctrine. People can sin and not surely die.

How does a lost sinner, know what Obedience is and what a pure heart is before salvation?

 

[Skinski7]

Here is what the Westminster Confession of Faith teaches on "Perseverance of the Saints"...

III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins;[7] and, for a time, continue therein:[8] whereby they incur God's displeasure,[9] and grieve His Holy Spirit,[10] come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts,[11] have their hearts hardened,[12] and their consciences wounded;[13] hurt and scandalize others,[14] and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.[15]

Westminster Confession of Faith

This is the kind of stuff that Vigilante above would likely believe in.

Notice it speaks of the "prevalency of corruption remaining in them" and how one can "fall into grievous sins;[7] and, for a time, continue therein." All this is in the context of the Justification quote above (Justification can NEVER be lost).

Thus again the Christian is not defined by the condition of their heart. A Christian can be wicked and engaged in grievous sin, they just won't continue in that sin indefinitely if they are truly saved. Thus who is to say who is a Christian and who is not? You cannot know them by their fruit because the fruit can be wicked or good.

See what Satan has done?

Satan has influenced the minds of men to invent doctrines which supplant a genuine salvation FROM sin by replacing it with a salvation IN sin premised of salvation being POSITIONAL as opposed to being MANIFEST (where heart purity is a reality).

This deception has been swallowed up by so many people it really boggles the mind.

 

[Skinski7]

How does a lost sinner, know what Obedience is and what a pure heart is before salvation?

Through this...

The light of conscience
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Paul speaks of it here...

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

We all know the basics of what is evil. We know murder, theft, being nasty, lying, cheating, fraud, rape, adultery is wrong if we reflect on such things.

A lost sinner may not know much and may not understand much about righteousness. All they have to do is seek God with all their heart and yield themselves to the light revealed. God will increase the light given as a response to the faithfulness of the one seeking.

This is why God reckons FAITH as righteousness. God looks at the heart. We are responsible for the light we have been given, not for the light that we have not been given. Some have 10 talents, some have a hundred. We put to use what we have and it will multiply.

Heart purity is the natural result of genuine faith. Faith purifies the heart and our souls are purified by obedience to the truth. It is in this that we can then love one another with a pure heart fervently. This is what the Bible teaches.

Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Do the teachers you follow teach that? I doubt it. I suspect they teach "confess, trust and receive" by which a "moral transfer of righteousness" takes place as well as a "sin debt is paid in full." It is another gospel if they teach that stuff.

 

[Skinski7]

What actually saves us is the implanted Word of God, the Spirit of Christ.

It is in yielding to the implanted word that a transformation of the heart takes place resulting in purity. In a pure state we are no longer an enemy of God, we are no longer in rebellion walking according to our own lusts.

James writes...

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Carefully read that. The salvation of the soul is reliant on receiving the implanted word meekly. One cannot receive the implanted word if they are despising it by being in rebellion to it. That is why James says we have to lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness. It is so very clear even a child could understand it.

We have to be DOERS in order to be transformed. That is what Jesus taught. It is the DOERS who BUILD their house on the rock. Many false teachers say, "not of works" and thus imply "DO NOTHING," just "trust in the provision." They are lying. They are deceiving people and they are deceived.

It is the doers of the will of God whom are accepted. It is the workers if iniquity who are not. The workers of iniquity WORK INIQUITY because their hearts are still wicked. The children of God WORK RIGHTEOUSNESS because their heart are pure. Blessed be the pure in heart for they shall see God. That is what the Bible teaches.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

MANY = A great multitude, the majority.
FEW = A small number, the minority.

The "confess, trust and recieve" gospel of Penal Substition and Original Sin is what is believed by MANY not few.

People like me are the FEW whom the MANY rail against and call us heretics.


Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

[The_highwayman]

Through this...

The light of conscience
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Paul speaks of it here...

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

We all know the basics of what is evil. We know murder, theft, being nasty, lying, cheating, fraud, rape, adultery is wrong if we reflect on such things.

A lost sinner may not know much and may not understand much about righteousness. All they have to do is seek God with all their heart and yield themselves to the light revealed. God will increase the light given as a response to the faithfulness of the one seeking.

This is why God reckons FAITH as righteousness. God looks at the heart. We are responsible for the light we have been given, not for the light that we have not been given. Some have 10 talents, some have a hundred. We put to use what we have and it will multiply.

Heart purity is the natural result of genuine faith. Faith purifies the heart and our souls are purified by obedience to the truth. It is in this that we can then love one another with a pure heart fervently. This is what the Bible teaches.

Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Do the teachers you follow teach that? I doubt it. I suspect they teach "confess, trust and receive" by which a "moral transfer of righteousness" takes place as well as a "sin debt is paid in full." It is another gospel if they teach that stuff.

Your putting pure heart and obedience before faith and salvation..if genuine faith was from a pure heart then we would not need a Savior...who died and shed his blood.

 

[Sophia]

I think that your rejection of "penal substitution" should be more of a warning
for people to not assume they are so saved without works that they can continue in sin.

But, to go to the opposite is to say that we save ourselves by cooperating with God. That's not the Gospel. That is the same as the Old Covenant.
We are saved by the Grace of God, effected upon us through Faith in His Son, unto good works through the Spirit.

It isn't cooperation, but giving the wheel over to His operating.

It is heartbreaking to see unbelieving people led to think that they are secure in salvation enough to go on in unrepentant sin,
but such distortions do not change the security that true Believers have in the completed work of Christ.

Salvation is God reaching out mankind, not mankind reaching out to God. It says in the Word that "no one seeks God".
It is not us bending to His Will for salvation, but Him snatching us from the fire.
Now that we have been snatched from the fire, we have been given a new purpose and a new calling (vocation/job).
Are we to shame His work by continuing in our old purpose? Far from it. We are to desire to bring Him glory for what He has done for us.

The issue is the order of operations. Don't place man before God. He did the work, and continues the work through us.

 

[Cassian]

Skinski,

There seems to be a great difficulty for some to understand a different paradigm than their own. It seems in the last several pages your discussion is apparently dealing with the "penal substitution" theory versus what scripture actually teaches.
Just some historical facts on the history of some of this theology. Anselm constructed what is known as the "satisfaction theory of atonement" also known as the forensic theory. This is a legal framework which does not exist in scripture. God does not have a legal relationship either with believers or even unbelievers. Calvin came along and added the concept of Penal subsititution to Anslem's theory.

I suppose it might fit in the reformed view because nothing aligns with scripture so Calvin makes it mean to fit his own suppositions. Given that he held to "limited atonement" which is a scriptural impossibility, it seems right that Christ than forgave all believers sins on the Cross. Nothing could be more logical, except that is not what He did on the Cross. It says He atoned, propitiated, for the sin of the world.

Atonement does NOT mean forgiveness. Christ did not forgive a single sin from the Cross. He provided a sacrifice for sin, He being that sacrifice and sacrificer, so that once He ascended, He became our High Priest. Now Christ is able to forgive sins, but He does not forgive them unilaterally. If one does not repent, sin is not forgiven. If one does not confess his sins, they are not forgiven. Sin separates one from God. If we sin and we do, if we do not confess them, they can condemn one. It is because He is able to forgive sin for the believer, that the believer can continue in his relationship with Christ.


I also read someone's comment that believers are saved from hell. Nothing could be further from the Truth. Hell and heaven are actually provisions of God because Christ defeated death and sin whereby God is now able to call all men to repentance. The consequence of being and remaining in Christ is eternal life, those that reject or leave Christ, hell is the outcome.

Christ saved the world from death and sin so that God and man could enter into a relationship for which man was created to have with God. We are saved in order to be united with Him now and for eternity. That is the Christus Victor mode of atonement, the scriptural one.

 

[tribesman]

I think that your rejection of "penal substitution" should be more of a warning
for people to not assume they are so saved without works that they can continue in sin.

But, to go to the opposite is to say that we save ourselves by cooperating with God. That's not the Gospel. That is the same as the Old Covenant....

I must correct you here, the way of salvation was always the same, and so was the gospel, which also was preached to the Saints of the Old Covenant. Salvation was always by grace through faith. Some people here want to stir up trouble by making a dichotomy between atonement and forgiveness, which does not really exist. It is Christ's work (not our work) which blesses us with all spiritual blessings, makes us holy and without blame, redeems us, forgives our sins and gives us an inheritance (Eph.1:3-14).

 

[Sophia]

I must correct you here, the way of salvation was always the same, and so was the gospel, which also was preached to the Saints of the Old Covenant. Salvation was always by grace through faith. Some people here want to stir up trouble by making a dichotomy between atonement and forgiveness, which does not really exist. It is Christ's work (not our work) which blesses us with all spiritual blessings, makes us holy and without blame, redeems us, forgives our sins and gives us an inheritance (Eph.1:3-14).

I agree that salvation was always by Grace through Faith,
but disagree that the OC was directly dealing with spiritual salvation.
It was a physical Covenant for a physical land... with a spiritual meaning that was a "mystery" until revealed through Christ.
That's why a New Covenant was needed, according to Hebrews.
The Redeemed of the OT were and are saved by the NC, not the blood of bulls of the OC.

 

[Skinski7]

Your putting pure heart and obedience before faith and salvation..if genuine faith was from a pure heart then we would not need a Savior...who died and shed his blood.

Salvation is inclusive of a pure heart and obedience. There cannot be one without the other.

It is like faith and obedience, one cannot exist without the other.

Abraham could not have had faith and then refused to go out when told to do so. That would have been unfaithfulness.

As I have said we need a saviour because our hearts have to be purged of our past sins. Of course people ignore that and try to implicate that any called to obedience is a denial of Jesus. This is because they want to believe in the provision of Penal Substitution which is a doctrine whereby a salvation is provided without obedience due to salvation being purely forensic.

 

[Sophia]

Salvation is inclusive of a pure heart and obedience. There cannot be one without the other.

It is like faith and obedience, one cannot exist without the other.

Abraham could not have had faith and then refused to go out when told to do so. That would have been unfaithfulness.

As I have said we need a saviour because our hearts have to be purged of our past sins. Of course people ignore that and try to implicate that any called to obedience is a denial of Jesus. This is because they want to believe in the provision of Penal Substitution which is a doctrine whereby a salvation is provided without obedience due to salvation being purely forensic.

Same issue as before.
A pure heart and obedience are a product of Salvation, not the means (unless we refer to the purity and obedience of Christ).
They are the fruit.
We are brought in through Faith in Christ, by the Grace of God.

 

[Skinski7]

I think that your rejection of "penal substitution" should be more of a warning
for people to not assume they are so saved without works that they can continue in sin.

But, to go to the opposite is to say that we save ourselves by cooperating with God. That's not the Gospel. That is the same as the Old Covenant.

Salvation is the result of "working together with God." It is what the Bible teaches.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

Workers Together - sunergeō - G4903
From G4904; to be a fellow worker, that is, co-operate: - help (work) with, work (-er) together.

If there is no "working together" there is no resulting salvation. If there is no "working together" then grace is received in vain. Believe what Bible says. The Bible speaks of "Synergy" in 2Cor 6:1.

Eph 2:8-10 speak of synergy too.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are saved by grace through faith. Grace is the leading of God upon our hearts, grace is what teaches us, grace is what quickens us. Faith is putting that grace to use by yielding to it. "Grace through faith" is a working dynamic that produces an outcome, that outcome being salvation, the transformed heart.

If one refuses to "work together" with God then all there is is "grace alone" + "unfaithfulness" and in that situation nothing happens. There is no transformation, there is no salvation.

If Noah refused to build the ark the grace of God would have been received by him in vain. Noah had to DO something and so do we.

Jesus taught that we must be doers. What is so hard to understand about that? What is the problem with "obedience" being a mandatory aspect of salvation? Why is it people reject obedience? The Bible clearly command obedience all over the place.

Jesus preached the Gospel and Jesus commanded "keep my commandments." So what do you mean that obedience is not part of the Gospel? I suspect it is because you want to believe in Penal Substitution which does not require obedience, it is a doctrine which treats salvation as purely positional, a position based on mere trust irrespective if one obeys or not. The Penal folk teach that "obedience will come later" yet the question I ask is WHEN? Next week? Next month? Next year? They always have this "fuzzy in between stage" of being "saved and disobedient" at the same time.

We are saved by the Grace of God, effected upon us through Faith in His Son, unto good works through the Spirit.

We are saved by grace THROUGH faith. Faith is not some mere "trust in Jesus and do nothing." Faith is trust in Jesus and abide in the Spirit of His life.

Look at this...

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The law of the Spirit of life IN Christ Jesus makes us free from the law of sin and death. Right before that Paul wrote...

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Do you think WALKING after the Spirit is optional? You really think there is nothing we have to do?

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Do you really think that the righteousness of the law does not have to be fulfilled in us?

Jesus came to save us from sin (Mat 1:21) not save us in it. If one is not WALKING according to the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ then they cannot possibly be saved from the law of sin and death.

Again, James wrote...

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Do you think that is optional? We don't have to forsake all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness to receive with meekness the implanted word? We don't have to be a doer of the word?

How can you say such a thing? You are preaching against the Gospel by doing so.

It isn't cooperation, but giving the wheel over to His operating.

It isn't cooperation? The Bible specifically says that it is cooperation. We WORK TOGETHER with God. If that is not cooperation I don't know what it.

cooperate
: to work together : to work with another person or group to do something
: to be helpful by doing what someone asks or tells you to do
: to act in a way that makes something possible or likely : to produce the right conditions for something to happen

Cooperate - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

James wrote this...

Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Wrought With - sunergeō - G4903
From G4904; to be a fellow worker, that is, co-operate: - help (work) with, work (-er) together.

The EXACT SAME WORD is used by James as is used by Paul in 2Cor 6:1.

How much more evidence do you need that we have to WORK TOGETHER with God?

Faith without any working principle behind it is dead faith. It is useless.

God reckons a WORKING FAITH s righteousness because a WORKING FAITH is real. Faith is SUBSTANCE AND EVIDENCE of things hoped for, it is not passive assent to the truth of something.

Te wolves in the pulpits will NEVER show you those Scriptures I just showed you because if they did they would expose themselves as liars.

It is heartbreaking to see unbelieving people led to think that they are secure in salvation enough to go on in unrepentant sin,
but such distortions do not change the security that true Believers have in the completed work of Christ.

The "completed work of Christ" as taught in the Penal Substitution model is a 400 year old satanic lie. Look at what that lie has done to your thinking. You proclaim that we don't have to work together with God which is about as unbiblical as you get. I blame your belief in the satanic deception of Penal Substitution as the root of what you proclaim such untruths.

You really need to examine Penal Substitution truthfully and if it is a lie then reject it. Lies kill souls. The Penal Substitution model is going to damn a great many people because is inoculates the mind to the true means of being reconciled. Many people come to believe they are saved when they are not saved.

Satan is a roaring lion, not a kitty cat. Do not underestimate the deception in this world for one moment.

Consider the words of Paul when he was leaving Ephesus...

Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Paul warned them for THREE YEARS, EVERY SINGLE DAY with TEARS about the deception that would come. Paul was not playing around, he understand how dangerous false doctrine is. Sophia, by reading your words I can tell you have been drawn away by false teachers and their false teachings. I urge you to examine with all diligence these things. Don't believe me, believe the Bible. Is what I am telling you actually in the Bible? If it is then you had better heed to it.

Salvation is God reaching out mankind, not mankind reaching out to God.

No it isn't.

GRACE is God reaching out to mankind. Salvation is the result of when those reached RESPOND in faith. God reached out to Noah with a warning of the flood and instructions on building an ark. Noah had to respond to that call faithfully in order to be saved. You are putting the cart before the horse by claiming that salvation is God reaching out to mankind.

It says in the Word that "no one seeks God".

Have you ever read the context of that verse? Or have you just blindly fallen for how certain wolves will twist it?

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Paul is comparing the Jews to the Gentiles and making the case that BOTH peoples are under sin and thus need a saviour. Paul quotes this from the Old Testament...

Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Psa 14:4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.

and

Psa 53:1 To the chief Musician upon Mahalath, Maschil, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.
Psa 53:2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
Psa 53:3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Psa 53:4 Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God.

Notice that the context is WICKED PEOPLE and not the righteous. People like Job, Abel, Daniel etc. are not included in that sentiment. David is speaking of the FOOLS who deny God. Paul is quoting that sentiment in Romans 3 to demonstrate that unrighteousness is found in both the Jews and the Gentiles. The Jews thought they had the law and thus that they were better, they thought it was the Gentiles who were corrupt. Paul corrected them.

See how you have alluded to a single verse in the Bible in order to promote an untruth. I doubt you did it willingly, you are just repeating what you have probably been told a thousand times. It is an automatic response from you. I see it all the time, people just parrot the same few out of context proof texts which the wolves yield to their own destruction and the destruction of others. That is how deception works.

It is not us bending to His Will for salvation, but Him snatching us from the fire.

Yes it is. We have to bend to His will in order to be saved, we have to be DOERS of the will of God.

I am trying to snatch you out of the fire Sophia, the fire of the deception you are under, by providing you with a testimony of the truth.

Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Now that we have been snatched from the fire, we have been given a new purpose and a new calling (vocation/job).
Are we to shame His work by continuing in our old purpose? Far from it. We are to desire to bring Him glory for what He has done for us.

The issue is the order of operations. Don't place man before God. He did the work, and continues the work through us.

I am not placing man before God. I am simply contending for the truth that we have to yield wholeheartedly to God like Abraham and Noah. God works in us to will and to do but we have to cooperate. If there is no cooperation there is no salvation. That is why Jesus preached REPENTANCE because out of repentance comes obedience and cooperation. repent AND believe not believe only.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

No obedience = no salvation.

Right there in your Bible. Salvation does not produce obedience, obediently cooperating with God produces salvation. There is a principle working dynamic without which grace produces nothing. Don't be deceived otherwise.

 

[Skinski7]

Same issue as before.
A pure heart and obedience are a product of Salvation, not the means (unless we refer to the purity and obedience of Christ).
They are the fruit.
We are brought in through Faith in Christ, by the Grace of God.

You have the cart before the horse. I really hope you carefully read my previous post because I have done my best to lay it all out as clearly as possible. If you reject that then there is nothing more I can say to you.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Obedience comes BEFORE salvation from sin, not afterwards. There it is, right there in your Bible. Believe it.

 

[Skinski7]

Skinski,

There seems to be a great difficulty for some to understand a different paradigm than their own. It seems in the last several pages your discussion is apparently dealing with the "penal substitution" theory versus what scripture actually teaches.
Just some historical facts on the history of some of this theology. Anselm constructed what is known as the "satisfaction theory of atonement" also known as the forensic theory. This is a legal framework which does not exist in scripture. God does not have a legal relationship either with believers or even unbelievers. Calvin came along and added the concept of Penal subsititution to Anslem's theory.

I suppose it might fit in the reformed view because nothing aligns with scripture so Calvin makes it mean to fit his own suppositions. Given that he held to "limited atonement" which is a scriptural impossibility, it seems right that Christ than forgave all believers sins on the Cross. Nothing could be more logical, except that is not what He did on the Cross. It says He atoned, propitiated, for the sin of the world.

Atonement does NOT mean forgiveness. Christ did not forgive a single sin from the Cross. He provided a sacrifice for sin, He being that sacrifice and sacrificer, so that once He ascended, He became our High Priest. Now Christ is able to forgive sins, but He does not forgive them unilaterally. If one does not repent, sin is not forgiven. If one does not confess his sins, they are not forgiven. Sin separates one from God. If we sin and we do, if we do not confess them, they can condemn one. It is because He is able to forgive sin for the believer, that the believer can continue in his relationship with Christ.


I also read someone's comment that believers are saved from hell. Nothing could be further from the Truth. Hell and heaven are actually provisions of God because Christ defeated death and sin whereby God is now able to call all men to repentance. The consequence of being and remaining in Christ is eternal life, those that reject or leave Christ, hell is the outcome.

Christ saved the world from death and sin so that God and man could enter into a relationship for which man was created to have with God. We are saved in order to be united with Him now and for eternity. That is the Christus Victor mode of atonement, the scriptural one.

Thank you. Excellent post.

Salvation is indeed FROM sin.

Romans 8:2 is the one verse that really brought it all home to my mind when things began to connect.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

God saves us from the wicked state which leads to the eternal ruination of the soul.

I notice that every false doctrine attacks that aspect by offering a salvation which is absent an actual saving FROM sin itself. All the various false salvation messages deal more with a salvation from condemnation only and thus twist grace into license as Jude warned. It is truly astounding as to how prolific the deception in this world actually is. It is no wonder Jesus stated...

Luk 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

 

[michael56]

I
The Redeemed of the OT were and are saved by the NC, not the blood of bulls of the OC.

Absolutely. People mistake Rom 3:25 as meaning a Christians past sins are forgiven by Christ's death at Calvary. But it is referring to the point you have made.

I think the fear of a licence to sin if Christ died for all a persons sins is in not understanding what it means to be born again. The law being written on a persons mind and placed on their heart is huge, and often not given the significance it should have. Your sins and lawless deeds will only be remembered no more because this has happened.

As Jesus said to Nicodemus:

Ye MUST be born again'' It is not an option, it is pivotal. It is the safeguard of grace if you like. It stops the licence to sin of the true believer

 

[tribesman]

I agree that salvation was always by Grace through Faith,
but disagree that the OC was directly dealing with spiritual salvation.
It was a physical Covenant for a physical land... with a spiritual meaning that was a "mystery" until revealed through Christ.
That's why a New Covenant was needed, according to Hebrews.
The Redeemed of the OT were and are saved by the NC, not the blood of bulls of the OC.

I do not agree with the quote in bold above. The israelites had conditional promises of land, a land they were kicked out of because they did not keep the conditions for same. However the covenant (of grace) with Abraham (and his descendants) is unconditional and amounts to a promise of a resurrection to eternal life.

 

[Sophia]

I do not agree with the quote in bold above. The israelites had conditional promises of land, a land they were kicked out of because they did not keep the conditions for same. However the covenant (of grace) with Abraham (and his descendants) is unconditional and amounts to a promise of a resurrection to eternal life.

But the completion of it required a New Covenant.
Without the New, the Old is without power, as the Old Promise was that the New would come.
That's the very story of Redemtion that links us to the Faith of Abraham and all the OT Saints: the Word made flesh.

The Covenant with Abraham is prior to what is called the Old Covenant/the Law.
It is part of the Old Testament, but prior to the Covenant with physical Israel.

Like the NC, the Abrahamic Covenant was made without condition; ratified by God alone. (Him walking between the halves while Abraham slept).
The Mosaic (OC) was made with specific condition... obedience. Christ fulfilled that Covenant by being perfectly obedient to the Father, as the very image of God.

 

[MarcR]

Salvation is inclusive of a pure heart and obedience. There cannot be one without the other.

It is like faith and obedience, one cannot exist without the other.

Abraham could not have had faith and then refused to go out when told to do so. That would have been unfaithfulness.

As I have said we need a saviour because our hearts have to be purged of our past sins. Of course people ignore that and try to implicate that any called to obedience is a denial of Jesus. This is because they want to believe in the provision of Penal Substitution which is a doctrine whereby a salvation is provided without obedience due to salvation being purely forensic.

I believe that you will agree that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, and all the OT saints were saved by grace through faith just as we NT saints are saved. If you consider the implications; I believe you might modify your position.

 

[tribesman]

But the completion of it required a New Covenant.
Without the New, the Old is without power, as the Old Promise was that the New would come.
That's the very story of Redemtion that links us to the Faith of Abraham and all the OT Saints: the Word made flesh.

The Covenant with Abraham is prior to what is called the Old Covenant/the Law.
It is part of the Old Testament, but prior to the Covenant with physical Israel.

Like the NC, the Abrahamic Covenant was made without condition; ratified by God alone. (Him walking between the halves while Abraham slept).
The Mosaic (OC) was made with specific condition... obedience. Christ fulfilled that Covenant by being perfectly obedient to the Father, as the very image of God.

Yes, the covenant of Grace with Abraham being fulfilled in the person and work of Christ.