Do you think God discplines us because of our sin while we are alive on earth?

[imoss]

Received this daily reading & was curious about the thoughts of those in here. I know sin has consequences but is it God dishing out the consequences or is it just the effect of sin & God has nothing to do with it? What do you guys think?

Quote from Our Daily Bread

January 26, 2010

Delayed Consequences

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READ: Ezekiel 12:21-28
Return to the Lord your God, for He is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness; and He relents from doing harm. —Joel 2:13
As a child, I learned to behave properly when adults rewarded my good behavior and punished my bad behavior. This worked pretty well because the reward or punishment generally came quickly after the behavior, making the relationship between the cause and effect unmistakable. When I became an adult, however, life got more complex, and the consequences of my actions were not always immediate. When I behaved badly without getting in trouble for it, I began to think that it didn’t matter to God what I did.
Something similar happened to the children of Israel. When they disobeyed God and didn’t suffer any bad consequences right away, they said, “The Lord has forsaken the land, and the Lord does not see!” (Ezek. 9:9), indicating their belief that God had lost interest in them and didn’t care about their bad behavior. But they were wrong. Weary of their waywardness, God finally said, “None of My words will be delayed any longer; whatever I say will be fulfilled” (12:28 niv).
When God delays discipline, it’s not due to indifference; it’s due to His very nature—He is gracious and slow to anger. Some see that as permission to sin, but God intends it to be an invitation to repent (Rom. 2:4). —Julie Ackerman Link
A Prayer: Lord, thank You for being slow to anger and filled with compassion. May I not presume upon Your mercy by assuming that there will be no consequences to my sin. Help me instead to confess it. Amen.
The only way to make things right is to admit you’ve been wrong.

End Quote our daily bread

 

[lightbliss]

I know sin has consequences but is it God dishing out the consequences or is it just the effect of sin & God has nothing to do with it?

Well I think the two go hand in hand.

 

[lil-rush]

I like Our Daily Bread. My parents used to get it regularly, but they don't anymore, so I read the old issues they have.

As to your initial question, I think it can be both. Sometimes we are being punished by God specifically. More often than not, though, I think we are simply dealing with the effects of sin.

 

[loveschild]

We reap what we sow. If we are stepping away from God and doing what is wrong then we get punished. Just as we punish our kids God punishes us so we will realize and turn back to him.

 

[ChristsArmorBearer]

I can't remember where exactly but i do know that somewhere in scripture the bible talks about God does chastise his children out of love.

I personally view the modern church as if it were a spoiled child. Most "christians" indulge in sin because they think "daddy" won't punish them. They tend to take fits whenever they don't get their way. and finally, they can't handle pressure without become depressed oppressed or anxious.

 

[songster]

Good post imoss.

Considering the things I've learned about God through my experiences, through his word, and in his dealings with others, I have to say that the punishment of God's children is allowed, and not caused.

A messenger was sent to torment the Apostle Paul in times when he might think of himself too highly. The messenger was clearly from satan, but it is reasonable to assume that satan has no desire to correct the children of God, but rather, to destroy them. In this scenario, the one who is allowing correction is God, but the one who is administering the punishment is satan's messenger.

In the Old Testament it was common for those recording accounts, to ascribe both good and evil to God. This is described by many as the 'Idiom of Permission'. For example, 1 Chronicles 13:10, might read, Uzzah touched the ark of the covenant, which was not to be done, and he died.

The actual scripture verse states, And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah, and he smote him, because he put his hand to the ark, and there he died before God.

I believe that one of the reasons there is such contrast between God’s character in the Old versus the New Testament, is that the Israelites had little understanding of demonic influence. We find that satan appears only a few times in the entire Old Testament, appearing in the Garden of Eden, the book of Job, and again in Zechariah 3. I believe that the absence of accounts describing demonic influence in the OT is noteworthy, and highly significant.

Unbelievers have often accused God of being cruel, and this assumption is commonly based on acts attributed to Him in the Old Testament. The standard Christian answer is usually, ‘God did what he had to do at that time, but now we are under Grace’. This is actually a wrong answer. God did not become Love when Jesus died, nor did Grace change God’s character. God is, was, and will always be love. This 'Idiom of Permission' applies to many parts of the Old Testament where God removed his hand of protection, allowing hardship, destruction, and even death, but it was allowed.

The word 'devil' appears more than 50 times in the NT. We know that both satan and the fallen angels, (devils), were on the earth for thousands of years prior to the coming of the Messiah. Why were they not mentioned? Where are the cases of demonic influence and possession? The reason is, that unless there was a specific word from God describing demonic activities, such as in Genesis, Job and Zechariah, all actions were ascribed to God.

Those with spiritual discernment become aware of unclean spirits which are present in their own lives and in the lives of those who, while they may be saved, may periodically suffer after indulging in sinful practices. The presence of demonic influence is unmistakable in the life of a believer who has become lukewarm and repeatedly falls. God has not rejected him/her even if the flame of their faith has become just a smoldering wick, but they most certainly suffer discipline, which is allowed for a time, in the hope that their relationship with God will be realigned.

It is satan who comes to steal, to kill, and to destroy, but at times, God finds it necessary to remove his hand, 'lowering the hedge', to chasten his children.

Hebrews 12:6

For whom the Lord loves he chastens, And scourges every son whom he receives.

 

[imoss]

what a great post songster! thank you you've given me much to read & think about.

 

[Thaddaeus]

Heb 12:5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:Heb 12:6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.Heb 12:7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?Heb 12:8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.Heb 12:9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

 

[MyBagsRPacked]

The following passages are taken from "The Message" translation so they may have added a few verses , to put it into context, I believe. I think you will find them a helpful read

JOB 5:17
17-19 "So, what a blessing when God steps in and corrects you!
Mind you, don't despise the discipline of Almighty God!
True, he wounds, but he also dresses the wound;
the same hand that hurts you, heals you.
From one disaster after another he delivers you;
no matter what the calamity, the evil can't touch you—

PSALMS 94:12
12-15 How blessed the man you train, God,
the woman you instruct in your Word,
Providing a circle of quiet within the clamor of evil,
while a jail is being built for the wicked.
God will never walk away from his people,
never desert his precious people.
Rest assured that justice is on its way
and every good heart put right.

PROVERBS 3:11,12
5-12 Trust God from the bottom of your heart;
don't try to figure out everything on your own.
Listen for God's voice in everything you do, everywhere you go;
he's the one who will keep you on track.
Don't assume that you know it all.
Run to God! Run from evil!
Your body will glow with health,
your very bones will vibrate with life!
Honor God with everything you own;
give him the first and the best.
Your barns will burst,
your wine vats will brim over.
But don't, dear friend, resent God's discipline;
don't sulk under his loving correction.
It's the child he loves that God corrects;
a father's delight is behind all this.

HEBREWS 12:5
4-11In this all-out match against sin, others have suffered far worse than you, to say nothing of what Jesus went through—all that bloodshed! So don't feel sorry for yourselves. Or have you forgotten how good parents treat children, and that God regards you as his children?

My dear child, don't shrug off God's discipline,
but don't be crushed by it either.
It's the child he loves that he disciplines;
the child he embraces, he also corrects.
God is educating you; that's why you must never drop out. He's treating you as dear children. This trouble you're in isn't punishment; it's training, the normal experience of children. Only irresponsible parents leave children to fend for themselves. Would you prefer an irresponsible God? We respect our own parents for training and not spoiling us, so why not embrace God's training so we can truly live? While we were children, our parents did what seemed best to them. But God is doing what is best for us, training us to live God's holy best. At the time, discipline isn't much fun. It always feels like it's going against the grain. Later, of course, it pays off handsomely, for it's the well-trained who find themselves mature in their relationship with God.

JOB 33:19
19-22 "Or, God might get their attention through pain,
by throwing them on a bed of suffering,
So they can't stand the sight of food,
have no appetite for their favorite treats.
They lose weight, wasting away to nothing,
reduced to a bag of bones.
They hang on the cliff-edge of death,
knowing the next breath may be their last.

REVELATION 3:19
19"The people I love, I call to account—prod and correct and guide so that they'll live at their best. Up on your feet, then! About face! Run after God!

PSALM 118:18
17-20 I didn't die. I lived!
And now I'm telling the world what God did.
God tested me, he pushed me hard,
but he didn't hand me over to Death.
Swing wide the city gates—the righteous gates!
I'll walk right through and thank God!
This Temple Gate belongs to God,

JEREMIAH 31:18
18-19"I've heard the contrition of Ephraim.
Yes, I've heard it clearly, saying,
'You trained me well.
You broke me, a wild yearling horse, to the saddle.
Now put me, trained and obedient, to use.
You are my God.
After those years of running loose, I repented.
After you trained me to obedience,
I was ashamed of my past, my wild, unruly past.
Humiliated, I beat on my chest.
Will I ever live this down?' so the victors can enter and praise.

PSALM 119:75
73-80 With your very own hands you formed me;
now breathe your wisdom over me so I can understand you.
When they see me waiting, expecting your Word,
those who fear you will take heart and be glad.
I can see now, God, that your decisions are right;
your testing has taught me what's true and right.
Oh, love me—and right now!—hold me tight!
just the way you promised.
Now comfort me so I can live, really live;
your revelation is the tune I dance to.
Let the fast-talking tricksters be exposed as frauds;
they tried to sell me a bill of goods,
but I kept my mind fixed on your counsel.
Let those who fear you turn to me
for evidence of your wise guidance.
And let me live whole and holy, soul and body,
so I can always walk with my head held high.

May You be Blessed by God

 

[songster]

The following passages are taken from "The Message" translation so they may have added a few verses , to put it into context, I believe. I think you will find them a helpful read

JOB 5:17
17-19 "So, what a blessing when God steps in and corrects you!
Mind you, don't despise the discipline of Almighty God!
True, he wounds, but he also dresses the wound;
the same hand that hurts you, heals you.
From one disaster after another he delivers you;
no matter what the calamity, the evil can't touch you—

JOB 33:19
19-22 "Or, God might get their attention through pain,
by throwing them on a bed of suffering,
So they can't stand the sight of food,
have no appetite for their favorite treats.
They lose weight, wasting away to nothing,
reduced to a bag of bones.
They hang on the cliff-edge of death,
knowing the next breath may be their last.

When we read Job it is important to remember that Job had little understanding, with regard to what he was experiencing. He attributed things to God that the Lord was not actually doing. Had you begun with chapter 16 it would have read this way:

Example 1

Job 16:7

O God, you have worn me out; you have devastated my entire household.

(Is this a true statement? The answer is no. Job simply drew conclusions based on a lack of understanding, as many in the OT were accustomed to doing)

Example 2

Job 16:9

God assails me and tears me in his anger, and gnashes his teeth at me;

(again, a statement, completely void of truth. God was neither angry, nor was he attacking Job, (gnashing with his teeth).

Example 3

Job 16:12

All was well with me, but he shattered me; he seized me by the neck and crushed me. He has made me his target; his archers surround me. Without pity, he pierces my kidneys and spills my gall on the ground. Again and again he bursts upon me; he rushes at me like a warrior.

Each of these were false statements made by Job concerning God. It is true that Job did not sin with his mouth, but his perspective was certainly not without fault. He did not accuse God of 'wrongdoing', or 'folly' , and therefore he remained blameless during this ordeal.

Job's words are not an accurate depiction of God's character, nor should they be used in any sermon or as witnessing scriptures to describe the chastening of the Lord. No Christian, in good conscience, after having read the beginning of the book of Job, knowing that satan was the attacker, can claim that Job's words contained guidance and accurate perspective. The Israelites attributed both good and evil to God, and this was often due to a complete lack of knowledge, which produced an inaccurate perception of their circumstances.

I am not opposing your post, which I believe was simply to state that God chastens his people, but all too often scriptures which do not accurately reflect God's character are accepted by some as truth, and I believe that this is one of those times. You are not the first, and likely, won't be the last to do this. I appreciate your posts and I trust that this will be received as a merely clarification.

 

[jesus_be4_religion]

I think we pay for our sins right here on earth if we are Christians, because Satan is a roaring lion waiting to devour us. God protects us but cant when we are sinning,but God uses all things for our good and most of the time he turns it for our discipline.

 

[songster]

I think we pay for our sins right here on earth if we are Christians, because Satan is a roaring lion waiting to devour us. God protects us but cant when we are sinning,but God uses all things for our good and most of the time he turns it for our discipline.

I agree, in part, not about paying for sins, (which Jesus already paid for), but about God's desire being for us to continually dwell in his safety and protection, which is called the Secret Place, in Psalm 91. When we step out of that place through disobedience, or even in ignorance, the enemy, who accuses us night and day before God (Rev 12:10), seizes the opportunity to reak havoc in our lives. Deuteronomy 28 was not only an instruction given to the Israelites, but a principle which still operates today on the earth, Blessing and Cursing.

28:1 If you fully obey the Lord your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations on earth. All these blessings will come upon you and accompany you if you obey the Lord your God: ....

28:15 However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you: ...

This does not mean that we are cursed when we disobey, because that which is blessed cannot be cursed, (Numbers 23). But, for a time, due to sin, we can operate in the curse, but only for a time, because God is able to deliver us, once our repentance is proven sincere.

 

[shad]

When we read Job it is important to remember that Job had little understanding, with regard to what he was experiencing. He attributed things to God that the Lord was not actually doing. Had you begun with chapter 16 it would have read this way:

Example 1

Job 16:7

O God, you have worn me out; you have devastated my entire household.

(Is this a true statement? The answer is no. Job simply drew conclusions based on a lack of understanding, as many in the OT were accustomed to doing)

Example 2

Job 16:9

God assails me and tears me in his anger, and gnashes his teeth at me;

(again, a statement, completely void of truth. God was neither angry, nor was he attacking Job, (gnashing with his teeth).

Example 3

Job 16:12

All was well with me, but he shattered me; he seized me by the neck and crushed me. He has made me his target; his archers surround me. Without pity, he pierces my kidneys and spills my gall on the ground. Again and again he bursts upon me; he rushes at me like a warrior.

Each of these were false statements made by Job concerning God. It is true that Job did not sin with his mouth, but his perspective was certainly not without fault. He did not accuse God of 'wrongdoing', or 'folly' , and therefore he remained blameless during this ordeal.

Job's words are not an accurate depiction of God's character, nor should they be used in any sermon or as witnessing scriptures to describe the chastening of the Lord. No Christian, in good conscience, after having read the beginning of the book of Job, knowing that satan was the attacker, can claim that Job's words contained guidance and accurate perspective. The Israelites attributed both good and evil to God, and this was often due to a complete lack of knowledge, which produced an inaccurate perception of their circumstances.

I am not opposing your post, which I believe was simply to state that God chastens his people, but all too often scriptures which do not accurately reflect God's character are accepted by some as truth, and I believe that this is one of those times. You are not the first, and likely, won't be the last to do this. I appreciate your posts and I trust that this will be received as a merely clarification.

Job 16:1-14

1 THEN JOB answered,
2 I have heard many such things; wearisome and miserable comforters are you all!
3 Will your futile words of wind have no end? Or what makes you so bold to answer [me like this]?
4 I also could speak as you do, if you were in my stead; I could join words together against you and shake my head at you.
5 [But] I would strengthen and encourage you with [the words of] my mouth, and the consolation of my lips would soothe your suffering.
6 If I speak [to you miserable comforters], my sorrow is not soothed or lessened; and if I refrain [from speaking], in what way am I eased? [I hardly know whether to answer you or be silent.]
7 But now [God] has taken away my strength. You [O Lord] have made desolate all my family and associates.
8 You have laid firm hold on me and have shriveled me up, which is a witness against me; and my leanness [and wretched state of body] are further evidence [against me]; [they] testify to my face.
9 [My adversary Satan] has torn [me] in his wrath and hated and persecuted me; he has gnashed upon me with his teeth; my adversary sharpens his eyes against me.
10 [The forces of evil] have gaped at me with their mouths; they have struck me upon the cheek insolently; they massed themselves together and conspired unanimously against me.
11 God has delivered me to the ungodly (to the evil one) and cast me [headlong] into the hands of the wicked (Satan's host).
12 I was living at ease, but [Satan] crushed me and broke me apart; yes, he seized me by the neck and dashed me in pieces; then he set me up for his target.
13 [Satan's] arrows whiz around me. He slashes open my vitals and does not spare; he pours out my gall on the ground.
14 [Satan] stabs me, making breach after breach and attacking again and again; he runs at me like a giant and irresistible warrior.

When anyone reads this passage in Job 16 they will see that Job had incredible understanding and discernment. He had respected friends that thought they were giving godly advice and were not and a wife that wanted him to curse God and die. God was allowing these things to happen to Job to draw out these precious gems and treasures of truth. You are the one that is without understanding concerning God's assessment of Job (Job 1:8) and the kind of integrity that Job maintained in this trial of faith, which is of great distance from you. You should joined to his friends with your own ungodly counsel and slanderous assessment and incredible lack of faith. They walked by sight and not by faith and were wise in their own conceits. They were humbled by Almighty God and corrected their evil behavior, will you have any integrity and do the same as Job's friends or will you continue to argue in the vanity of your own understanding?

 

[songster]

Job 16:1-14

1 THEN JOB answered,
2 I have heard many such things; wearisome and miserable comforters are you all!
3 Will your futile words of wind have no end? Or what makes you so bold to answer [me like this]?
4 I also could speak as you do, if you were in my stead; I could join words together against you and shake my head at you.
5 [But] I would strengthen and encourage you with [the words of] my mouth, and the consolation of my lips would soothe your suffering.
6 If I speak [to you miserable comforters], my sorrow is not soothed or lessened; and if I refrain [from speaking], in what way am I eased? [I hardly know whether to answer you or be silent.]
7 But now [God] has taken away my strength. You [O Lord] have made desolate all my family and associates.
8 You have laid firm hold on me and have shriveled me up, which is a witness against me; and my leanness [and wretched state of body] are further evidence [against me]; [they] testify to my face.
9 [My adversary Satan] has torn [me] in his wrath and hated and persecuted me; he has gnashed upon me with his teeth; my adversary sharpens his eyes against me.
10 [The forces of evil] have gaped at me with their mouths; they have struck me upon the cheek insolently; they massed themselves together and conspired unanimously against me.
11 God has delivered me to the ungodly (to the evil one) and cast me [headlong] into the hands of the wicked (Satan's host).
12 I was living at ease, but [Satan] crushed me and broke me apart; yes, he seized me by the neck and dashed me in pieces; then he set me up for his target.
13 [Satan's] arrows whiz around me. He slashes open my vitals and does not spare; he pours out my gall on the ground.
14 [Satan] stabs me, making breach after breach and attacking again and again; he runs at me like a giant and irresistible warrior.

When anyone reads this passage in Job 16 they will see that Job had incredible understanding and discernment. He had respected friends that thought they were giving godly advice and were not and a wife that wanted him to curse God and die. God was allowing these things to happen to Job to draw out these precious gems and treasures of truth. You are the one that is without understanding concerning God's assessment of Job (Job 1:8) and the kind of integrity that Job maintained in this trial of faith, which is of great distance from you. You should joined to his friends with your own ungodly counsel and slanderous assessment and incredible lack of faith. They walked by sight and not by faith and were wise in their own conceits. They were humbled by Almighty God and corrected their evil behavior, will you have any integrity and do the same as Job's friends or will you continue to argue in the vanity of your own understanding?

If you're searching for an argument, you'll have to search elsewhere friend. I'm quite familiar with your inflammatory posts and I have no desire to debate this matter with you. You have changed these scriptures by placing satan's name in front of them, but any individual viewing this thread will be able to see that Job is referring to God in the verses I cited. By altering the scriptures you have given them a new meaning in support of your argument, I am not in the habit of doing so.

If you believe that I am not familiar with the scriptures, you have certainly not withheld your opinions in the past, and I'm sure more are forthcoming, nevertheless, I stand by my post.

 

[jesus_be4_religion]

I agree, in part, not about paying for sins, (which Jesus already paid for), but about God's desire being for us to continually dwell in his safety and protection, which is called the Secret Place, in Psalm 91. When we step out of that place through disobedience, or even in ignorance, the enemy, who accuses us night and day before God (Rev 12:10), seizes the opportunity to reak havoc in our lives. Deuteronomy 28 was not only an instruction given to the Israelites, but a principle which still operates today on the earth, Blessing and Cursing.

28:1 If you fully obey the Lord your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations on earth. All these blessings will come upon you and accompany you if you obey the Lord your God: ....

28:15 However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you: ...

This does not mean that we are cursed when we disobey, because that which is blessed cannot be cursed, (Numbers 23). But, for a time, due to sin, we can operate in the curse, but only for a time, because God is able to deliver us, once our repentance is proven sincere.

I was definitely not meaning that we pay for our sins I mean we are disciplined for our sins here on earth. Sorry for the misunderstanding . Definitely I could not pay for my sins or anyones elses Only Jesus blood could.

 

[songster]

I was definitely not meaning that we pay for our sins I mean we are disciplined for our sins here on earth. Sorry for the misunderstanding . Definitely I could not pay for my sins or anyones elses Only Jesus blood could.

I thought that might be what you meant, disciplined for disobedience, I agree.

 

[shad]

If you're searching for an argument, you'll have to search elsewhere friend. I'm quite familiar with your inflammatory posts and I have no desire to debate this matter with you. You have changed these scriptures by placing satan's name in front of them, but any individual viewing this thread will be able to see that Job is referring to God in the verses I cited. By altering the scriptures you have given them a new meaning in support of your argument, I am not in the habit of doing so.

If you believe that I am not familiar with the scriptures, you have certainly not withheld your opinions in the past, and I'm sure more are forthcoming, nevertheless, I stand by my post.

The verses posted were from the Amplified Bible and they are verbatim with nothing added or taken away or changed. You may not agree with them because they contradict your understanding and the incredible counsel you offered. To argue is fruitless but to make a stand is another matter. To discredit me is a very small thing because I am nothing and I am a dead man and hopefully you are also crucified with Christ. Maybe you should think soberly before you discredit saints like Job, that probably had more spirituality and understanding of the character of God in their little finger, then you or I can learn in a lifetime. That was a dumb move on your part and you need to recognize that and do what you call, repent!

 

[greatkraw]

did anyone say therre are spiritual consequences and temporal consequences

when you confess your sin only the spiritual consequences are taken care of

 

[Buddee]

How many times were the Israelites punished for their disobedience or unbelief? Was Moses not punished by being kept from entering the promised land? Can God, who is never-changing, be any different today?

 

[songster]

The verses posted were from the Amplified Bible and they are verbatim with nothing added or taken away or changed. You may not agree with them because they contradict your understanding and the incredible counsel you offered. To argue is fruitless but to make a stand is another matter. To discredit me is a very small thing because I am nothing and I am a dead man and hopefully you are also crucified with Christ. Maybe you should think soberly before you discredit saints like Job, that probably had more spirituality and understanding of the character of God in their little finger, then you or I can learn in a lifetime. That was a dumb move on your part and you need to recognize that and do what you call, repent!

Fair enough. There does appear to be a discrepancy between the KJV and the NIV. I have reviewed the texts contained in 3 versions in addition to the Hebrew text, and the NIV seems to ascribe these acts to God, as you can research for yourself. I am open to correction, and I prefer understanding over debate. Because the KJV is more accurate I believe you are correct. If this is one brother to another pointing out an error, thank you. If this is an individual lying in wait to attempt to bully or dominate within a thread, then that is what I initially expected. You've encouraged me to repent, I wonder if you have taken your own advice.

In a post called "Gifts of the Spirit', I shared a story about a time when I prayed for my son, who had struggled with asthma attacks so severe that he was often rushed to the emergency room. I posted the fact that I'd prayed for my son (2yrs old at the time), and that he'd been healed, and in the manner I"ve come to expect from you, you all but accused me of lying. I believe your exact words were ...

Originally Posted by shad
Is this a prayer of faith, according to James 5 that involves the elders of the church to heal the sick, or have you done it yourself? If so, then the one who was healed has a testimony. Let him speak on his own behalf with one other witness. If 'songster' agrees 100%, has he done it as well?Let the one who was healed speak of it in the same manner. One of the (7) things the Lord hates is a false witness / Prov 6:19. Every healing recorded in the scriptures had a witness or a number of them. Let your testimony be established by (2) witnesses which could include the one healed as one witness but the other should be a neutral party.

This was your response to a testimony I gave regarding the healing of my son. Apparently , because we did not go to the elders of the church or follow a rule of having 2 or more witnesses to the healing, you were not satisfied, which would have been fine, except you were not content to be silent on the matter, but proceeded to express your doubt, disbelief, and near accusation, by posting the above rhetoric, and you have the audacity to preach about Grace in other posts. Now I encourage you to Repent!