Under the law Romans

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gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
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48
#1
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Notice that Paul here connects guilt to being under the law.

what does He mean what things the law saith?

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The law points out sin and thus makes everyone guilty why?

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

So here again Paul clearly connects under the law with sinning. Those who sin are under the law and are guilty before God.


Next place in Romans where Paul talks about being under the law.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.


This time Paul talks about those who are not under the law, before Jesus came all were under the law. but now Grace has come we are no longer under the law but under grace.

Notice that being under Grace means sin no longer has dominion over you and shall we sin? God forbid.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

notice sin = death Sin is breaking the law not obeying it. but the opposite is "obedience"

So in the first case Paul puts all under the law because all have sinned. In this second case Paul shows that those who are under Grace do not sin but obey.

So under the law = sinners
Under Grace = obedience.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
#2
By the way I am aware that this is not the only way Paul uses this phrase, For else where He uses the phrase under the law to simply mean before Grace through Christ came. example:

Gal_4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Clearly Christ had not sinned.
 
H

haz

Guest
#3
So under the law = sinners
Under Grace = obedience.
Obedience to what?

Legalists will say obedience to the law. Sadly for legalists, they all fail to obey the law and thus they stand condemned by the very doctrine they preach. Legalists determine righteousness by works of the law and this places them under the law as they reject Christ's sacrifice. You cannot even mix works of the law, with grace, Rom 11:6.

For Christians however, we obey Christ's commandments to believe on Jesus and love one another (1John 3:23).
Christians obey God's will that we believe on Jesus, John 6:40.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
#4
Obedience to what?

Legalists will say obedience to the law. Sadly for legalists, they all fail to obey the law and thus they stand condemned by the very doctrine they preach. Legalists determine righteousness by works of the law and this places them under the law as they reject Christ's sacrifice. You cannot even mix works of the law, with grace, Rom 11:6.

For Christians however, we obey Christ's commandments to believe on Jesus and love one another (1John 3:23).
Christians obey God's will that we believe on Jesus, John 6:40.
This is the confusion that occurs when one throws out the teachings of Christ Himself in a pursuit of "Pauline" theology...

Mat 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.

And the first thing people want to teach is that the Law has passed away in direct contradiction to the words of the very One they claim to be following.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#5
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Notice that Paul here connects guilt to being under the law.

what does He mean what things the law saith?

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The law points out sin and thus makes everyone guilty why?

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

So here again Paul clearly connects under the law with sinning. Those who sin are under the law and are guilty before God.


Next place in Romans where Paul talks about being under the law.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.


This time Paul talks about those who are not under the law, before Jesus came all were under the law. but now Grace has come we are no longer under the law but under grace.

Notice that being under Grace means sin no longer has dominion over you and shall we sin? God forbid.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

notice sin = death Sin is breaking the law not obeying it. but the opposite is "obedience"

So in the first case Paul puts all under the law because all have sinned. In this second case Paul shows that those who are under Grace do not sin but obey.

So under the law = sinners
Under Grace = obedience.
under law = condemned
Under grace = saved (no longer condemned)

We are all sinners, even after we are saved, if we think we are not we are in danger. and will not grow in the love of Christ.

 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
#6
under law = condemned
Under grace = saved (no longer condemned)

We are all sinners, even after we are saved, if we think we are not we are in danger. and will not grow in the love of Christ.

were is the scripture for that?
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
#7
Obedience to what?

Legalists will say obedience to the law. Sadly for legalists, they all fail to obey the law and thus they stand condemned by the very doctrine they preach. Legalists determine righteousness by works of the law and this places them under the law as they reject Christ's sacrifice. You cannot even mix works of the law, with grace, Rom 11:6.

For Christians however, we obey Christ's commandments to believe on Jesus and love one another (1John 3:23).
Christians obey God's will that we believe on Jesus, John 6:40.
Go learn what the scripture says love one another is.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#8
were is the scripture for that?
ever read galations, romans, and many other wonderful words of God?

The law condemns, Grace saved. Or do you not comprehend what that means?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#9
Go learn what the scripture says love one another is.
we love because he first loved us, If we are not born of God and have not experienced his love, we have no capacity to love anyone in a way which is not sin.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
#10
we love because he first loved us, If we are not born of God and have not experienced his love, we have no capacity to love anyone in a way which is not sin.
True but what does love one another mean from scripture? Look at the scripture:

Rom 13:8 Owe no man anything, save to love one another: for he that loveth his neighbor hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: love therefore is the fulfilment of the law.

love your neighbor/love one another is a summery of the law. So to love one another is to keep the law.

Now don't get me wrong keeping the law does not make you love one another but rather having Gods love by faith will naturally keep the law.

love does not steal, kill, bear false witness, covet etc. Thus love is the fulfillment of the law.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
#11
Jesus kept the law perfectly He loved us. so we should love as He has loved us:

Joh_15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Joh_15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#12
True but what does love one another mean from scripture? Look at the scripture:

Rom 13:8 Owe no man anything, save to love one another: for he that loveth his neighbor hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: love therefore is the fulfilment of the law.

love your neighbor/love one another is a summery of the law. So to love one another is to keep the law.

Now don't get me wrong keeping the law does not make you love one another but rather having Gods love by faith will naturally keep the law.

love does not steal, kill, bear false witness, covet etc. Thus love is the fulfillment of the law.
true, but if one is not born again, non of this is possible. all you have is legalism and a psuedo false love which is not real. thats the point I am making.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#13
Jesus kept the law perfectly He loved us. so we should love as He has loved us:

Joh_15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Joh_15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.
you can do that till your blue in the face, if your not saved from condemnation which is brought by the law. you will never see heaven, only the wrath of God
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
#14
true, but if one is not born again, non of this is possible. all you have is legalism and a psuedo false love which is not real. thats the point I am making.
Agreed. and one can not be born again unless one has faith in Christ.
 
H

haz

Guest
#15
This is the confusion that occurs when one throws out the teachings of Christ Himself in a pursuit of "Pauline" theology...

Mat 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.

And the first thing people want to teach is that the Law has passed away in direct contradiction to the words of the very One they claim to be following.
I never said the law is passed away.

The law is just, good and holy, Rom 7:12.

The law is seen is Rev 20 when people are judged according to books. Those without Christ (which includes legalists) will be judged under the law, and they will be found guilty of all the law (James 2:10) and condemned.

But Christians are in the book of Life, and our faith is counted for righteousness (Rom 4:5). Thus we're not condemned.
 
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
29
0
#16
Obedience to what?

Legalists will say obedience to the law. Sadly for legalists, they all fail to obey the law and thus they stand condemned by the very doctrine they preach. Legalists determine righteousness by works of the law and this places them under the law as they reject Christ's sacrifice. You cannot even mix works of the law, with grace, Rom 11:6.

For Christians however, we obey Christ's commandments to believe on Jesus and love one another (1John 3:23).
Christians obey God's will that we believe on Jesus, John 6:40.
Keeping God's law is not legalism. When the law of Moses was still in effect, those that kept it were called "righteous" not legalists. Lk 1:6-----"And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."

You say "...they all fail to obey the law and thus they stand condemned by the very doctrine they preach..."

In Lk 1:6, Elizabeth and Zacharias failed to keep that OT law perfectly, yet why are they said to be "blameless"? Why did they not "stand condemned" as you say but instead they are said be "righteous" and "blameless"? Because when Jews sinned God's law allowed for sacrifices to be made for those sins and as long as the Jew obeyed God's law keeping those sacrifices then their sins were atoned for keeping them righteous before God.

Even though the OT laws were taken out of the way and and replaced by Christ's NT law, those obedient to it are also called "righteous" not legalists" 1 Jn 3:7. And when the Christian does sin, Christ's NT law allows for the avenue of repenting of that sin receiving forgiveness of that sin keeping the Christian "holy and without blame" Eph 1:4.


And under both the OT law and Christ's NT law, NONE were seen as righteous because of "faith only" but seen righteous because of a faithful obedience to God's law. Keeping God's law does not make one a legalists yet one can never been seen as righteous without keeping God's law...one can never been seen as "right doing" if he does not keep God's law.
 
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haz

Guest
#17
Go learn what the scripture says love one another is.
Legalists do not love as they preach condemnation under the law.
They always preach about God's limits of forgiveness for those who fail to obey the law to some ambiguous minimum standard of obedience. To the legalists, the topic of "love" is a facade to lure others into works of the law for righteousness.

Christians however do love one another. We show the same love/grace to others as God showed us. We forgive 7x70. We preach Christ, and not the law, as scripture commands.
 
Feb 5, 2015
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#18
Keeping God's law is not legalism. When the law of Moses was still in effect, those that kept it were called "righteous" not legalists. .
Do not bring your servant into judgement, for no one living is (truly) righteous before you Psalms 143:2
 
H

haz

Guest
#19
And under both the OT law and Christ's NT law, NONE were seen as righteous because of "faith only" but seen righteous because of a faithful obedience to God's law. Keeping God's law does not make one a legalists yet one can never been seen as righteous without keeping God's law...one can never been seen as "right doing" if he does not keep God's law.
So did Jesus made a big mistake when he said to the thief on the cross who called him "Lord", that he will be with him in paradise?

That thief had no deeds of the law to support his entry into God;s kingdom.
Yet you say: " one can never been seen as righteous without keeping God's law".

Do you think that Rom 4:5 got it wrong too?
Rom 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#20
Agreed. and one can not be born again unless one has faith in Christ.

agreed, but once that faith is deemed by God to be real. then that person has eternal life and is saved forever.


It is God who determines who has real faith, not us.