Jesus didn't come to separate the old and new covenants.

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Mar 4, 2013
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#1
God, our Father in heaven, His name being holy is immutable....................

"He has never changed and can never change in the smallest measure. To change, He would need to go from better to worse or from worse to better. He cannot do either, for being perfect, He cannot become more perfect, and if He were to become less perfect He would be less than God."

Quote from "The Pursuit of God" written by A. W. Tozer

And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. (Luke 4:4)
 
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crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,704
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#2
God, our Father in heaven, His name being holy is immutable....................

"He has never changed and can never change in the smallest measure. To change, He would need to go from better to worse or from worse to better. He cannot do either, for being perfect, He cannot become more perfect, and if He were to become less perfect He would be less than God."

Quote from "The Pursuit of God" written by A. W. Tozer

And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. (Luke 4:4)
Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

...but you knew that.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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#3
Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

...but you knew that.
AMEN! Without something that came first that was inferior, there could be nothing better to compare it to. Without something that was not complete, there would be nothing to fulfill or make complete.
 
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WebersHome

Senior Member
Dec 9, 2014
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#4
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There will always be a number of people who refuse to accept that the New
Testament's epistles are equal in truth and authority to the New Testament's
gospels. In other words; they're as much as saying that Paul, Peter, James,
John, and Jude are frauds.

====================================
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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#5
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There will always be a number of people who refuse to accept that the New
Testament's epistles are equal in truth and authority to the New Testament's
gospels. In other words; they're as much as saying that Paul, Peter, James,
John, and Jude are frauds.

====================================
And there will always be a number of people who contend that the New Testament epistles override the plain statements of Christ in the gospels.
 

WebersHome

Senior Member
Dec 9, 2014
1,940
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#6
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And there will always be a number of people who contend that the New
Testament epistles override the plain statements of Christ in the
gospels.
I've heard a lot about Christ's so-called "plain" statements, but even those
people fight over because many of his so-called plain statement are not as
plain as they seem.

=============================================
 
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phil112

Guest
#7
[h=2]Jesus didn't come to separate the old and new covenants.[/h]
True. God separated them before time. They were old and new by his plan from the beginning.
I can't even believe I am responding to such a silly title. If I wasn't bored while waiting for a new scanner download I wouldn't be here. Seriously, do some of you ever open the bible and read it?
 
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psalm6819

Guest
#8
Jesus fulfilled the old covenant so we could be under the new....
 
Mar 4, 2013
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#9
I think about the covenant made with Noah, Abraham, David, and Israel all fulfilled in Christ and available to us through Him today.

Noah covenant, the rainbow. We have been rescued and have been given a promise through Christ.
Abraham covenant of circumcision. We are circumcised in heart through Christ.
David covenant of salt. We are preserved through Christ who is now our High Priest from the tribe of Judah.
Sandal covenant with Israel. We have been provided a place to dwell in safety through Christ.

All these covenants are enveloped in Spiritual relation to the New Covenant through Christ to separate our old nature from the new, but not God's nature and name from His own Words that He spoke from the ancient of days.

I consider why the offerer of a sacrifice had to lay both hands on what was sacrifice in the persons stead. It was to transfer all the iniquity that they had to the sacrifice that was taking their place. Jesus did the same for those who believe that this actually happens with Him and us.

Thou wilt perform the truth to Jacob, and the mercy to Abraham, which thou hast sworn unto our fathers from the days of old. (Micah 7:20)
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#10
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
 

WebersHome

Senior Member
Dec 9, 2014
1,940
32
0
#11
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It is the honest opinion of not a few Jews that the new covenant as per Jer
31:31-34 is an upgrade of the Sinai covenant: sort of like Windows 8.1
upgrades Windows 8. The 8.1 OS is still Windows; just a newer version
with a number of improvements.

=============================================
 
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john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,363
185
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#13
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I've heard a lot about Christ's so-called "plain" statements, but even those
people fight over because many of his so-called plain statement are not as
plain as they seem.

=============================================
Just how mysterious is this statement?

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

that too complicated?

How about this one...

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Really, really difficult to understand?
 
Mar 10, 2015
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#14
I think about the covenant made with Noah, Abraham, David, and Israel all fulfilled in Christ and available to us through Him today.

Noah covenant, the rainbow. We have been rescued and have been given a promise through Christ.
Abraham covenant of circumcision. We are circumcised in heart through Christ.
David covenant of salt. We are preserved through Christ who is now our High Priest from the tribe of Judah.
Sandal covenant with Israel. We have been provided a place to dwell in safety through Christ.

All these covenants are enveloped in Spiritual relation to the New Covenant through Christ to separate our old nature from the new, but not God's nature and name from His own Words that He spoke from the ancient of days.

I consider why the offerer of a sacrifice had to lay both hands on what was sacrifice in the persons stead. It was to transfer all the iniquity that they had to the sacrifice that was taking their place. Jesus did the same for those who believe that this actually happens with Him and us.

Thou wilt perform the truth to Jacob, and the mercy to Abraham, which thou hast sworn unto our fathers from the days of old. (Micah 7:20)

There are two types of covenants in the Bible: conditional and unconditional, one must understand the differnce between these 2 to fully understadn wha thte Bible is teaching.

A conditional covenant is a bilateral covenant in which a proposal of God to man is characterized by the formula: if you will, then I will, whereby God promises to grant special blessings to man providing man fulfills certain conditions contained in the covenant. Man's failure to do so often results in punishment. Thus one's response to the covenant agreement brings either blessings or cursings. The blessings are secured by obedience and man must meet his conditions before God will meet His.

Two of the eight covenants of the Bible are conditional: the Edenic Covenant and the Mosaic Covenant.

An unconditional covenant is a unilateral covenant and is a sovereign act of God whereby He unconditionally obligates Himself to bring to pass definite blessings and conditions for the covenanted people. This covenant is characterized by the formula: I will, which declares God's determination to do as He promises. Blessings are secured by the grace of God. There may be conditions in the covenant by which God requests the covenanted one to fulfill out of gratitude, but they are not themselves the basis of God's fulfilling His promises.

Six of the eight covenants are unconditional: the Adamic Covenant, the Noahic Covenant, the Abrahamic Covenant, the Palestinian or Land Covenant, the Davidic Covenant, and the New Covenant.

Five of these eight covenants were made exclusively with Israel while the others were made with mankind in general. Only one of the five covenants made with Israel is conditional: the Mosaic Covenant. The other four covenants with Israel are all unconditional: the Abrahamic Covenant, the Land Covenant, the Davidic Covenant, and the New Covenant.

Four things should be noted concerning the nature of the unconditional covenants made with Israel.

First: they are literal covenants and their contents must be interpreted literally as well.

Second: the covenants that God has made with Israel are eternal and are not in any way restricted or altered by time.

Third: it is necessary to re-emphasize that these are unconditional covenants that were not abrogated because of Israel's disobedience; because the covenants are unconditional and totally dependent upon God for fulfillment, their ultimate fulfillment can be expected.

Fourth: these covenants were made with a specific people: Israel. This point is brought out by Paul in Romans 9:4: who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises.
This passage clearly points out that these covenants were made with the covenanted people and are Israel's possession.

This is brought out again in Ephesians 2:11-12: Wherefore remember, that once ye, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called Circumcision, in the flesh, made by hands; that ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Five of the eight Bible covenants belong to the people of Israel and, as this passage notes, Gentiles were considered strangers from the covenants.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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185
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#15
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
What Law was changed?

Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

The Law that stated that Aaron and his sons would be Priests. The Law that excluded a Jew (one from the tribe of Judah) from being a Priest.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,363
185
63
#16
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It is the honest opinion of not a few Jews that the new covenant as per Jer
31:31-34 is an upgrade of the Sinai covenant: sort of like Windows 8.1
upgrades Windows 8. The 8.1 OS is still Windows; just a newer version
with a number of improvements.

=============================================
And rightly so, it is the spiritual writing of the Law in the hearts and minds of those who are called and converted.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#17
Really......hmmmmm!


Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the TWO COVENANTS; the one from the Mount Sinai which gendereth to BONDAGE, which is AGAR.......

Hebrews 8:7 For if the FIRST covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the SECOND.

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, a NEW COVENANT, he hath made the FIRST old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the NEW COVENANT......
 
S

sparty-g

Guest
#18
And there will always be a number of people who contend that the New Testament epistles override the plain statements of Christ in the gospels.
This is most certainly true that people contend this. I've read books plainly espousing the idea that the revelation of the Spirit to the disciples and apostles, as recorded in the NT epistles, is greater than the words of the Messiah Himself. The Messiah is depicted as speaking to a dead-works people "under the Law," thus many of His words have no value or application to the Christian after the cross. If you want the "good stuff," better flip past the gospels. I can't tell you how many congregations I attended for a length of time and saw them never or barely read the words of the Messiah, but instead always fixated on the NT epistles, primarily Paul. I'm starting to think some should be called Paulians! :D (obviously I kid)

Jesus, Stephen, and Paul -- all falsely accused of teaching against the Torah. 2,000 years later, we are still siding with their accusers.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
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#19
This is most certainly true that people contend this. I've read books plainly espousing the idea that the revelation of the Spirit to the disciples and apostles, as recorded in the NT epistles, is greater than the words of the Messiah Himself. The Messiah is depicted as speaking to a dead-works people "under the Law," thus many of His words have no value or application to the Christian after the cross. If you want the "good stuff," better flip past the gospels. I can't tell you how many congregations I attended for a length of time and saw them never or barely read the words of the Messiah, but instead always fixated on the NT epistles, primarily Paul. I'm starting to think some should be called Paulians! :D (obviously I kid)

Jesus, Stephen, and Paul -- all falsely accused of teaching against the Torah. 2,000 years later, we are still siding with their accusers.
Originally Posted by john832
And there will always be a number of people who contend that the New Testament epistles override the plain statements of Christ in the gospels.


Both lines of thought above denies the following......

1. Jesus said clearly he had many things to say and teach the disciples but they were not ready to bear up under it...
2. The bible clearly sets forth a progressive revelation of God
3. From MOSES in GENESIS to JOHN in Revelation has been INSPIRED by the SAME JESUS that SPOKE in Matthew, Mark, Luke and JOHN
4. THE words of PAUL are the words of JESUS as PAUL was taught by direct revelation BY JESUS
5. The words of PAUL, Peter, John, JUDE ec. are equally the WORDS of GOD and bear the SAME weight and authority as the words of GOD and or the Words of JESUS while he walked the earth
6. NO matter how you slice and dice, JESUS was UNDER the OLD COVENANT and LAW because the NEW COVENANT was not ratified UNTIL HIS DEATH
7. The ETERNAL truths taught by JESUS in the N.T. church letters are VALID and APPLICABLE unto those who are UNDER the NEW COVENANT!

Now, maybe you guys cannot deal with the above facts and truths...I suggest prayer and study.......!
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,363
185
63
#20
Originally Posted by john832
And there will always be a number of people who contend that the New Testament epistles override the plain statements of Christ in the gospels.


Both lines of thought above denies the following......

1. Jesus said clearly he had many things to say and teach the disciples but they were not ready to bear up under it...
2. The bible clearly sets forth a progressive revelation of God
3. From MOSES in GENESIS to JOHN in Revelation has been INSPIRED by the SAME JESUS that SPOKE in Matthew, Mark, Luke and JOHN
4. THE words of PAUL are the words of JESUS as PAUL was taught by direct revelation BY JESUS
5. The words of PAUL, Peter, John, JUDE ec. are equally the WORDS of GOD and bear the SAME weight and authority as the words of GOD and or the Words of JESUS while he walked the earth
6. NO matter how you slice and dice, JESUS was UNDER the OLD COVENANT and LAW because the NEW COVENANT was not ratified UNTIL HIS DEATH
7. The ETERNAL truths taught by JESUS in the N.T. church letters are VALID and APPLICABLE unto those who are UNDER the NEW COVENANT!

Now, maybe you guys cannot deal with the above facts and truths...I suggest prayer and study.......!
So, help me out Dcon, my friend, do you believe that something Paul said overrides something that Christ said?