Guide for woman's (1 Tim 2:9-15)
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Turning the other cheek and supporting justice. Jesus is making a divide between authority which defends the defenseless supporting criminal law while encouraging love and pacification in individual interactions with people. We are commanded not to take offence or to fight against people who want to provoke a fight. Basically we are not in a war for a kingdom on earth, but the kingdom in heaven, and winning an argument or conflict with another is not our aim.
This does not mean we support abuse or intimidation or victimization. We believe in defending against these injustices at a civil level while not escalating conflict at a personal level. So giving clothing, lending things that can be lent, is encouraged. It is not abrogation of ownership, or letting others take as they desire of your possessions.
This means abuse is not acceptable against anyone, a divorce for this reason is perfectly acceptable, as the partner has stopped loving and caring for the individual which is the whole reason for marriage, the outward showing of an inward commitment to share someones life. It is the equivalent to the hurt caused by adultery, a similar betrayal of obligation.
This does not mean we support abuse or intimidation or victimization. We believe in defending against these injustices at a civil level while not escalating conflict at a personal level. So giving clothing, lending things that can be lent, is encouraged. It is not abrogation of ownership, or letting others take as they desire of your possessions.
This means abuse is not acceptable against anyone, a divorce for this reason is perfectly acceptable, as the partner has stopped loving and caring for the individual which is the whole reason for marriage, the outward showing of an inward commitment to share someones life. It is the equivalent to the hurt caused by adultery, a similar betrayal of obligation.
The problem here is simple. The Lord said -
"You desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."
Now this is not all women are subservient to all men, or women have no authority. This is a weak argument. A better argument is people in a congregation who have respected opinions and positions should be listened to, and the group should be open to those who have something to contribute. If though you live in a time when simple issues dominate simply because of a lack of education etc. and this group tends to be the women it is tempting to just play down that group using theology rather than face the need to help the women gain understanding. This is the problem with Pauls letters, he is often looked at as being perfect, rather than a man of his time and situation. Paul was very aware of the difficulty of this argument which is why he uses the term "I do not allow". Many times I say things with one intention, but without the surrounding meaning etc it can appear to support something very different.
What you need to remember is we are called to a kingdom of "love", of openness and sharing, of meeting needs etc. It is through this exploration of our selves and others we find the Kingdom.
"You desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."
Now this is not all women are subservient to all men, or women have no authority. This is a weak argument. A better argument is people in a congregation who have respected opinions and positions should be listened to, and the group should be open to those who have something to contribute. If though you live in a time when simple issues dominate simply because of a lack of education etc. and this group tends to be the women it is tempting to just play down that group using theology rather than face the need to help the women gain understanding. This is the problem with Pauls letters, he is often looked at as being perfect, rather than a man of his time and situation. Paul was very aware of the difficulty of this argument which is why he uses the term "I do not allow". Many times I say things with one intention, but without the surrounding meaning etc it can appear to support something very different.
What you need to remember is we are called to a kingdom of "love", of openness and sharing, of meeting needs etc. It is through this exploration of our selves and others we find the Kingdom.
J
Here's the context of your "quote":
"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." (Genesis 3:16)
The context is clearly that of a husband and wife relationship in which the husband is the head of the wife and Paul never deviated from such a context in his writings. In fact, Paul alluded to this exact portion of scripture when he said:
I Corinthians chapter 14
[34] Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
[35] And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Yes, when Paul said "as also saith the law", he was alluding to what we just read in Genesis 3:16. In Genesis 3:16, the context was that of a husband and wife relationship in which the husband is the head of the wife and this is exactly the context in which Paul alluded to this verse. Yes, "your women" here are clearly "wives" in that they were instructed to "ask their husbands at home" whatever questions they had in relation to their need to "learn". Many of Paul's other comments in relation to "women" in scripture were contextually in relation to "wives" as well and this is why he repeatedly referred his readers all the way back to Adam and Eve in that they were the first husband and wife.
What does any of this have to do with Paul's alleged "desperation"?
Paul claimed that "Adam lost responsibility for his own decisions"?
That's news to me...and to Paul:
Romans chapter 5
[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
[13] (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
[14] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
[15] But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
[16] And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
[17] For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
[18] Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
[19] For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Seriously, just give it a rest...
"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." (Genesis 3:16)
The context is clearly that of a husband and wife relationship in which the husband is the head of the wife and Paul never deviated from such a context in his writings. In fact, Paul alluded to this exact portion of scripture when he said:
I Corinthians chapter 14
[34] Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
[35] And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Yes, when Paul said "as also saith the law", he was alluding to what we just read in Genesis 3:16. In Genesis 3:16, the context was that of a husband and wife relationship in which the husband is the head of the wife and this is exactly the context in which Paul alluded to this verse. Yes, "your women" here are clearly "wives" in that they were instructed to "ask their husbands at home" whatever questions they had in relation to their need to "learn". Many of Paul's other comments in relation to "women" in scripture were contextually in relation to "wives" as well and this is why he repeatedly referred his readers all the way back to Adam and Eve in that they were the first husband and wife.
What does any of this have to do with Paul's alleged "desperation"?
Paul claimed that "Adam lost responsibility for his own decisions"?
That's news to me...and to Paul:
Romans chapter 5
[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
[13] (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
[14] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
[15] But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
[16] And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
[17] For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
[18] Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
[19] For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Seriously, just give it a rest...
"But women[c] will be saved through childbearing"
σωθήσεται δὲ.... διὰ τῆς τεκνογονίας ἐὰν μείνωσιν can also be rendered:
she will do well...... however....... through.... the..... domestic duties................. if........... continues
She will do well by continuing in hsr household duties. Some women might have issues with this as well; but they will be different issues.
σωθήσεται δὲ.... διὰ τῆς τεκνογονίας ἐὰν μείνωσιν can also be rendered:
she will do well...... however....... through.... the..... domestic duties................. if........... continues
She will do well by continuing in hsr household duties. Some women might have issues with this as well; but they will be different issues.
Last edited:
J
1 Tim. 2:12-15 (KJV)
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. [13] For Adam was first formed, then Eve. [14] And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. [15] Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
Frank Viola in his book titled, “The untold story of the New Testament Church'” tells of the historical situation in Ephesus where Timothy was assigned. I have edited down his comments to just those of women issues – they were very severe.
Timothy and Paul were dealing with a kind of pre-Gnostic heresy that had come into the church via the male teachers. According to gnosticism, full salvation comes through special knowledge – gnosis – that only the initiated possess. In Ephesus this is what they were teaching...
The homes of the Ephesian women provide a network by which the heresy is spread rapidly through gossip, Some of the women are teaching the heresy in the Church meetings and are lording it over (dominating) the men. They have also accepted the ideals of the “new woman” [which was the Roman equivalent of “womens lib.”] They are dressing in an immodest and exploitative way (like that of prostitutes) and are defying other accepted norms regarding marriage and family.
There is also a problem with respect to how the widows are being cared for in the Church. Some of the widows have adopted the heresy and others have family members who are able to care for them. Still worse, some of the younger widows who decided not to remarry are acting promiscuously.
Consequently, Timothy wants to know which widows the Church ought to be responsible for. Paul wants to go back to Ephesus – but he cannot – he writes the pastoral epistle of 1 Timothy to address all these problems of which this post has not recorded all of them. In any case the situation with the women in particular was very grave and out of control.
Any one doing an in depth study of this topic may want to read the book "I suffer not a woman". It has good historic background and a thorough look at the passage of 1Timothy 2:11 15.The authors are Richard and Catherine Clark Kroeger.
One of the difficulties with the interpretation of the afore mentioned scripture is the Greek word "Authentein" (To dominate or rule over). It is only used once in the Bible so there is no frame of reference for this word inside of scripture. Words change in meaning over the years and this is a point in Kroger's book. They believe -as does Viola - that this passage was written in answer to heretical Gnostic error, which was invading the Church.
Here is an edited comment based on Kroegers Book.
“In light of the authentic meaning of the word "authentein" and of the social context within which Paul wrote his letters to Timothy, let me offer what I believe is an appropriate rendering of the text in Timothy. I believe Paul is saying, "I am not allowing (present tense for that situation) a woman to teach or to proclaim herself the originator of man (authentein)." Do you see how this translation offsets false doctrine?
The word that is frequently translated "silence," "hesuchia", also means harmony, peace, conformity or agreement. I therefore suggest Paul goes on to say, "she must be in agreement," meaning agreement with the scriptures and with sound teaching in the Church.
He continues in this vein saying, "Adam was formed first then Eve." This statement militates against the doctrine of Eve as progenitor. He also says "Adam was not deceived, but the woman was! And sinned!" This statement directly contradicts the notion that Eve was the "illuminator," and carrier of new revelation (gnosis).
This translation is the most legitimate because it fits the social context, is true to the Greek, speaks to the troubled situation, and lines up perfectly with all of Paul's other teachings and practices concerning women.”
Conclusion: Paul was addressing this gnostic heresy in the Ephesian Church and if you take it literally - as a lot of people do - it suppresses women unjustly and out of the exclusive context of the Ephesian situation in Paul's day. It is also contradictory to the attitude of Paul throughout his days of ministry as he always saw women as his co-laborers in the Lord.
Larry
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. [13] For Adam was first formed, then Eve. [14] And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. [15] Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
Frank Viola in his book titled, “The untold story of the New Testament Church'” tells of the historical situation in Ephesus where Timothy was assigned. I have edited down his comments to just those of women issues – they were very severe.
Timothy and Paul were dealing with a kind of pre-Gnostic heresy that had come into the church via the male teachers. According to gnosticism, full salvation comes through special knowledge – gnosis – that only the initiated possess. In Ephesus this is what they were teaching...
- Eve is both a mediator and redeemer figure who preexisted Adam.
- Man came into existence because of a woman, and he was given enlightenment through the woman. Since Eve was the first to take a bite from the Tree of Knowledge, she is the bearer of special spiritual knowledge (called gnosis).
- Women are called to lead people to the illuminating gnosis, which was represented by the Tree of Knowledge. Redemption completely reversed the effects of the fall so that men are no longer subject to earthly authorities and women are no longer subject to their husbands.
The homes of the Ephesian women provide a network by which the heresy is spread rapidly through gossip, Some of the women are teaching the heresy in the Church meetings and are lording it over (dominating) the men. They have also accepted the ideals of the “new woman” [which was the Roman equivalent of “womens lib.”] They are dressing in an immodest and exploitative way (like that of prostitutes) and are defying other accepted norms regarding marriage and family.
There is also a problem with respect to how the widows are being cared for in the Church. Some of the widows have adopted the heresy and others have family members who are able to care for them. Still worse, some of the younger widows who decided not to remarry are acting promiscuously.
Consequently, Timothy wants to know which widows the Church ought to be responsible for. Paul wants to go back to Ephesus – but he cannot – he writes the pastoral epistle of 1 Timothy to address all these problems of which this post has not recorded all of them. In any case the situation with the women in particular was very grave and out of control.
Any one doing an in depth study of this topic may want to read the book "I suffer not a woman". It has good historic background and a thorough look at the passage of 1Timothy 2:11 15.The authors are Richard and Catherine Clark Kroeger.
One of the difficulties with the interpretation of the afore mentioned scripture is the Greek word "Authentein" (To dominate or rule over). It is only used once in the Bible so there is no frame of reference for this word inside of scripture. Words change in meaning over the years and this is a point in Kroger's book. They believe -as does Viola - that this passage was written in answer to heretical Gnostic error, which was invading the Church.
Here is an edited comment based on Kroegers Book.
“In light of the authentic meaning of the word "authentein" and of the social context within which Paul wrote his letters to Timothy, let me offer what I believe is an appropriate rendering of the text in Timothy. I believe Paul is saying, "I am not allowing (present tense for that situation) a woman to teach or to proclaim herself the originator of man (authentein)." Do you see how this translation offsets false doctrine?
The word that is frequently translated "silence," "hesuchia", also means harmony, peace, conformity or agreement. I therefore suggest Paul goes on to say, "she must be in agreement," meaning agreement with the scriptures and with sound teaching in the Church.
He continues in this vein saying, "Adam was formed first then Eve." This statement militates against the doctrine of Eve as progenitor. He also says "Adam was not deceived, but the woman was! And sinned!" This statement directly contradicts the notion that Eve was the "illuminator," and carrier of new revelation (gnosis).
This translation is the most legitimate because it fits the social context, is true to the Greek, speaks to the troubled situation, and lines up perfectly with all of Paul's other teachings and practices concerning women.”
Conclusion: Paul was addressing this gnostic heresy in the Ephesian Church and if you take it literally - as a lot of people do - it suppresses women unjustly and out of the exclusive context of the Ephesian situation in Paul's day. It is also contradictory to the attitude of Paul throughout his days of ministry as he always saw women as his co-laborers in the Lord.
Larry
V
Anything that hasn't been said in 229 posts that belittles, denigrates, and puts down the service of women in ministry doesn't need to be said. For that matter, most of what was said in this thread didn't need to be said, given most of what was said in this thread is unbiblically biased against such service, at the very least.