Plato, Aristotle, St. Augustine and St. Thomas: Masters of Theology

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May 21, 2014
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#1
I was pondering about has religion been influenced by man's ideology, philosophy, opinion, theories, schools of thoughts, Rome and Greek culture. Four men who have influenced religion are the following: Aristotle, Plato, St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas.

Background History:

Aristotle(384-322 BCE):was a student at Plato's school, the Academy. Aristotle later opened his own school, the Lyceum, and became the tutor to the Greek king and conqueror Alexander the Great (356–323 BCE). He wrote about politics, art theory, nature classification, physics (the science of matter and energy and their interactions), and speech. For Aristotle, a person's intellect was his or her most important quality. Aristotle did not try to discover any ultimate reality. Rather, his starting point was the world of reality that humans perceive. He taught that the intellect should be used in the observance of nature. In terms of ethics, he taught a balanced path, featuring the avoidance of extremes. The highest good for anything was the realization of its nature and purpose. Hence, for humans, the highest good was to exercise the specifically human skill of rationality (reasoned thought). Aristotle and Plato were perhaps the most influential of the classical Greek philosophers.

Greco-Roman Religion and Philosophy

World Religions Reference Library, 2007


Plato: (born 428/427 bce, Athens, Greece—died 348/347, Athens), ancient Greekphilosopher, student of Socrates (c. 470–399 bce), teacher of Aristotle (384–322 bce), and founder of the Academy, best known as the author of philosophical works of unparalleled influence. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/464109/Plato

The teachings of Socrates gave rise to many schools. Perhaps his most important student was Plato, whose teachings and writings, such as The Republic, have been among the most influential in Western philosophy. Plato's writings consist primarily of dialogues, or conversations, usually with Socrates as one of the speakers. Plato wrote about moral virtue, how to lead a good life, and the nature of knowledge. He also wrote about the immortality of the soul. In fact, Plato was the first of the Greek philosophers to offer an extensive argument concluding that the soul was immortal. In many ways Plato blended much of the work that had come before. His conception was that humans wanted to become one with the bigger and eternal world of the Idea and the Ideal, of which the waking world was only a shadow.World Religions Reference Library, 2007

St. Augustine:Augustine of Hippo was born in Thagaste, (the modern day city of Souk Ahras in Algeria), on the 13th of November in 354. He died on the 28th of August in 430 in Hippo Regius (the modern day city of Annaba in Algeria), where he had been named Bishop thirty-five years earlier. As it is difficult to encapsulate any renowned figure, it is especially difficult to do so with Augustine of Hippo. As a philosopher and theologian, Augustine of Hippo vacillated between an optimistic Hellenistic view in his earlier years and a more pessimistic Christian view in his later years. Moving between such extremes, he accommodated a wide array of disciplines and thought in his over-arching desire to make sense of a world, in both theory and practice, seemingly so full of conflict, strife, and loss. Thus, it is one of his most revered traits and innovative aspects of his writings that he was able to commune diverging aspects from the four schools of Hellenistic philosophy (Epicureans, Stoics, Skeptics, and Platonists) along with various doctrines of Christian ideology. Among his voluminous body of work that includes numerous letters, sermons and exegetical texts, he is most known for his Confessiones (Confessions) 397–401, De civitate dei (On the City of God) 413–427, De trinitate (On the Trinity) 399–422/6, and De libero arbitrio (On Free Will), 386/8. http://www.egs.edu/library/augustine-of-hippo/biography/

St. Thomas Aquinas: Thomas Aquinas was born in the Kingdom of Naples at Rocca Secca purportedly between the years 1225 and 1227. He died on the 7th of March in 1274 at Fossa Nuova. Thomas Aquinas was a Dominican Friar, Theologian and Philosopher. He was of the Scholastic tradition, which emphasized dialectical reasoning as a means with knowledge. Scholasticism, as was Thomas Aquinas, was greatly influenced by the Aristotleelian resurgence and Neo-Platonism, both of which Scholastics, and Thomas Aquinas in particular, would seek to reconcile with Christian theological doctrine. Two of the most important works in this tradition, which subsequently created a tradition, are the Summa contra Gentiles(1259-1264), and the Summa Theologica (Summary of Theology), (1265-1274), considered to be Thomas Aquinas’ masterwork. Within thus contains his renowned proofs for the existence of God through faith and reason, both of which, for the “angelic doctor,” originate in God.
http://www.egs.edu/library/thomas-aquinas/biography/


Christianity has been influenced by men philosophy, ideology, theology, schools of thoughts( theories) and culture. That is why it is important for Christians to study the history of their church and founders. So is Christianity today established on the teachings of JESUS(YESHUA) or Man's theology that is the reason for all the schisms within the Body of Christ!?!




 
P

psychomom

Guest
#2
prolly just a shot in the dark, but....

wouldn't it be most important for Christians to study the Word of God?
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,704
3,649
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#3
Following those schools often leads to an allegorical approach to Scripture.
 
D

DesiredHaven

Guest
#4
Following those schools often leads to an allegorical approach to Scripture.
I never read any of them (and not interested in reading any of them) and I love the allegories in scripture

God said he used similitude by his own prophets (of old)

Hosea 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

Abraham being a prophet (Paul himself shows the two women of Abraham) are an allegory

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants....

Whereas we see the former prophets
used similitudes Jesus himself spake in parable (even of the dark sayings of old) Psalm 78:2

And the Holy Ghost teaches this way too...

1 Cr 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Why do people dislike allegories?

I mean there are nuts out there whose comparisons are just plain flaky (and off in la la land) but Paul shows a decent allegorical interpreation through the prophet Abraham's life when we can glean truth for ourselves through today.

Be nice to the allegory, its all good lol
 
Dec 26, 2014
3,757
19
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#5
prolly just a shot in the dark, but....

wouldn't it be most important for Christians to study the Word of God?
yes. the errors and disputes and wranglings and heresies come from other religions and nations,

including greeks mythology and other garbage.

stick to the WORD, as ABBA discoses it --- HE even says TO NOT STUDY THE OTHERS,

as well as the need for God's Deliverance and Revelation (even for the apostles) to understand TORAH, TRUTH and Yahshua(Yahweh's Salvation).

I never read any of them (and not interested in reading any of them) and I love the allegories in scripture

God said he used similitude by his own prophets (of old)

Hosea 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

Abraham being a prophet (Paul himself shows the two women of Abraham) are an allegory

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants....

Whereas we see the former prophets
used similitudes Jesus himself spake in parable (even of the dark sayings of old) Psalm 78:2

And the Holy Ghost teaches this way too...

1 Cr 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Why do people dislike allegories?

I mean there are nuts out there whose comparisons are just plain flaky (and off in la la land) but Paul shows a decent allegorical interpreation through the prophet Abraham's life when we can glean truth for ourselves through today.

Be nice to the allegory, its all good lol
the main problem i think isn't people disliking allegories --- it is people liking garbage of the world, including other religions.....
 
D

DesiredHaven

Guest
#6
the main problem i think isn't people disliking allegories --- it is people liking garbage of the world, including other religions.....
Wouldnt he be saying the same thing though?

In respects to following these schools (which you might call garbage) the outcome would be the same, which would eventually lead one to an allegorical approach to scripture (which Paul used) even through Abraham expounding the two women as two covenants.

So following that garbage (or these sorts of schools) would lead to an allegorical approach to scripture which Paul used.

See what I mean?

If we are going to call one thing garbage because it might lead somewhere bad, its always best to make sure the Holy Ghost doesnt use it is all I would say.

Whereas Pyschomom is right on to read the word of God, in the which God says He used similitudes by the ministry of the prophets and prophesied parables by Jesus Christ (His Son) through whom we receiced the Holy Ghost who taught Paul by comparing spiritual things with spiritual, and through whom come forth an allegory of both covenants in Abraham (a prophet) in accord with His own words.

I always used to get confused as a young christian on what exactly is the trash part, and could easily end up calling good evil or evil good, that type thing.
 
Last edited:
Jan 6, 2014
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#7
"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. .... The Lord knoweth the reasonings of the wise that they are vain."
1Corinthians 3:19-20

The simplicity of the Gospel is mostly rejected by the wise of this world because God has revealed himself to the contrite and humble in spirit.

St Augustine and St Thomas Aquinas are both considered Doctors of the Catholic Faith. And while I can agree with them on some of the essentials of the faith, their attempt to make christianity a world philosophy I have trouble with, both justifying war is another position I totally disagree with.

It is obvious that the Church has been influenced by human philosophy, I am not sure that this influence has led to the schisms and divisions of the Church.

interesting contemplation , thank you for the post.

Christ be with you always.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,704
3,649
113
#8
I never read any of them (and not interested in reading any of them) and I love the allegories in scripture

God said he used similitude by his own prophets (of old)

Hosea 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

Abraham being a prophet (Paul himself shows the two women of Abraham) are an allegory

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants....

Whereas we see the former prophets
used similitudes Jesus himself spake in parable (even of the dark sayings of old) Psalm 78:2

And the Holy Ghost teaches this way too...

1 Cr 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Why do people dislike allegories?

I mean there are nuts out there whose comparisons are just plain flaky (and off in la la land) but Paul shows a decent allegorical interpreation through the prophet Abraham's life when we can glean truth for ourselves through today.

Be nice to the allegory, its all good lol
There is a BIG difference when the Holy Spirit reveals an allegory in Scripture and when 'scholars' willy-nilly make up allegories left and right. By the latter, scripture becomes a free for all and may the most imaginative one win.
 
D

DesiredHaven

Guest
#9
There is a BIG difference when the Holy Spirit reveals an allegory in Scripture and when 'scholars' willy-nilly make up allegories left and right. By the latter, scripture becomes a free for all and may the most imaginative one win.

You didnt distinguish though lol

And I havent read any of these guys to be familar with them enough to say, well, outside of the typical online snippets posted (here or there) which I never paid too much attention to.

Maybe it might be better to just say learning from these willy nilly scholars could lead one to really bad (non biblical) allegorical interpretations?

Then I would have thought, hmmmm... Maybe I ought to stay away from these dudes.

But you had left with the impression that allegorical (across the board) with no distinctions made was the real bad.

Thats all. Thought you felt the allegorical was evil

Some are nuts though
 
Dec 26, 2014
3,757
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#10
(God's Way) allegorical, etc, is fine, from Scripture.

it is written in Scripture that
anything, etc,
from the world (of the world, of the flesh, of the carnal),

profits nothing.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,704
3,649
113
#11
You didnt distinguish though lol

And I havent read any of these guys to be familar with them enough to say, well, outside of the typical online snippets posted (here or there) which I never paid too much attention to.

Maybe it might be better to just say learning from these willy nilly scholars could lead one to really bad (non biblical) allegorical interpretations?

Then I would have thought, hmmmm... Maybe I ought to stay away from these dudes.

But you had left with the impression that allegorical (across the board) with no distinctions made was the real bad.

Thats all. Thought you felt the allegorical was evil

Some are nuts though
Well basically you have two schools of interpretation that are opposites. The allegorical school and the historical-grammatical school which takes a more literal approach. You can research the difference, I personally prefer the literal approach unless the allegory is spelled out in Scripture.
 
D

DesiredHaven

Guest
#13
Well basically you have two schools of interpretation that are opposites. The allegorical school and the historical-grammatical school which takes a more literal approach. You can research the difference, I personally prefer the literal approach unless the allegory is spelled out in Scripture.
I must say, I am interested in the Holy Ghost's approach. Surely He is able to teach us His own approach without requiring us to study mans wisdom in respects to their own approaches.

Thanks for clarifying though crossnote, God bless you
 
Dec 26, 2014
3,757
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#14
who is the good shepherd ? whose voice do the sheep hear ? (the shepherd's).

listen to the good shepherd. he will never, never, never desert you nor leave you.
 
K

Karraster

Guest
#15
Good article, thanks. I particularly like the author's conclusion, which I've taken liberty to post below:

Conclusion

I conclude with this thought: are we disciples on the road to Emmaus, our hearts burning with desire to learn, to have the Scriptures explained to us? Or are we complacent, having the Scriptures but caring not what they really mean? If we truly love God and His Word, then we will rejoice to learn the way of the Lord more perfectly. Week by week we will long to learn more about the whole counsel of God, the meanings of Biblical terms, the historical background of Scripture and the author'sintent for the meaning of various passages. We will be like avid fishermen, knowing that there is more there in this ocean of truth than can be caught in a lifetime, yet everyday venturing out to sea for the joy of the day's catch.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,780
2,940
113
#16
AQ Please try and post topics that are not all copy and paste, with a few words thrown in.

And what everyone else said! This is the Bible Discussion Forum. Not the early church fathers forum.
 
K

Karraster

Guest
#17
Paul quoted philosophers...I suppose to reach an audience you must know your audience, and I daresay in Paul's day he did, so it stands to reason that at least some of his listeners were familiar with these writings. Luckily we live in an age where information is readily available, and a copy/copies of scripture so abundant, that we run the risk of taking them for granted...also in this time so far removed from Messiah's day, it is very helpful to me in understanding scripture to reference who was being quoted, whether Old Testament or philosophers.

Here is an example of some of Paul's use of Greek philosophy:


https://biblethingsinbibleways.wordpress.com/2013/07/14/paul-and-his-use-of-greek-philosophy/
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,704
3,649
113
#18
One should ask,
"Are the Gospel accounts e.g. Matthew, literal or allegorical?"
"Was the death of Jesus Christ for our sins, literal or allegorical?"
"Was the resurrection from the dead, literal or allegorical?"
"Is Jesus' return, literal or allegorical?"

It will be noticed that those Churches that have fallen for the allegorical approach, end up liberal and gut the marrow from God's Word leaving only a shell called religion.
 
Feb 5, 2015
1,852
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#19
I was pondering about has religion been influenced by man's ideology, philosophy, opinion, theories, schools of thoughts, Rome and Greek culture. Four men who have influenced religion are the following: Aristotle, Plato, St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas.

Background History:

Aristotle(384-322 BCE):was a student at Plato's school, the Academy. Aristotle later opened his own school, the Lyceum, and became the tutor to the Greek king and conqueror Alexander the Great (356–323 BCE). He wrote about politics, art theory, nature classification, physics (the science of matter and energy and their interactions), and speech. For Aristotle, a person's intellect was his or her most important quality. Aristotle did not try to discover any ultimate reality. Rather, his starting point was the world of reality that humans perceive. He taught that the intellect should be used in the observance of nature. In terms of ethics, he taught a balanced path, featuring the avoidance of extremes. The highest good for anything was the realization of its nature and purpose. Hence, for humans, the highest good was to exercise the specifically human skill of rationality (reasoned thought). Aristotle and Plato were perhaps the most influential of the classical Greek philosophers.

Greco-Roman Religion and Philosophy

World Religions Reference Library, 2007


Plato: (born 428/427 bce, Athens, Greece—died 348/347, Athens), ancient Greekphilosopher, student of Socrates (c. 470–399 bce), teacher of Aristotle (384–322 bce), and founder of the Academy, best known as the author of philosophical works of unparalleled influence. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/464109/Plato

The teachings of Socrates gave rise to many schools. Perhaps his most important student was Plato, whose teachings and writings, such as The Republic, have been among the most influential in Western philosophy. Plato's writings consist primarily of dialogues, or conversations, usually with Socrates as one of the speakers. Plato wrote about moral virtue, how to lead a good life, and the nature of knowledge. He also wrote about the immortality of the soul. In fact, Plato was the first of the Greek philosophers to offer an extensive argument concluding that the soul was immortal. In many ways Plato blended much of the work that had come before. His conception was that humans wanted to become one with the bigger and eternal world of the Idea and the Ideal, of which the waking world was only a shadow.World Religions Reference Library, 2007

St. Augustine:Augustine of Hippo was born in Thagaste, (the modern day city of Souk Ahras in Algeria), on the 13th of November in 354. He died on the 28th of August in 430 in Hippo Regius (the modern day city of Annaba in Algeria), where he had been named Bishop thirty-five years earlier. As it is difficult to encapsulate any renowned figure, it is especially difficult to do so with Augustine of Hippo. As a philosopher and theologian, Augustine of Hippo vacillated between an optimistic Hellenistic view in his earlier years and a more pessimistic Christian view in his later years. Moving between such extremes, he accommodated a wide array of disciplines and thought in his over-arching desire to make sense of a world, in both theory and practice, seemingly so full of conflict, strife, and loss. Thus, it is one of his most revered traits and innovative aspects of his writings that he was able to commune diverging aspects from the four schools of Hellenistic philosophy (Epicureans, Stoics, Skeptics, and Platonists) along with various doctrines of Christian ideology. Among his voluminous body of work that includes numerous letters, sermons and exegetical texts, he is most known for his Confessiones (Confessions) 397–401, De civitate dei (On the City of God) 413–427, De trinitate (On the Trinity) 399–422/6, and De libero arbitrio (On Free Will), 386/8. http://www.egs.edu/library/augustine-of-hippo/biography/

St. Thomas Aquinas: Thomas Aquinas was born in the Kingdom of Naples at Rocca Secca purportedly between the years 1225 and 1227. He died on the 7th of March in 1274 at Fossa Nuova. Thomas Aquinas was a Dominican Friar, Theologian and Philosopher. He was of the Scholastic tradition, which emphasized dialectical reasoning as a means with knowledge. Scholasticism, as was Thomas Aquinas, was greatly influenced by the Aristotleelian resurgence and Neo-Platonism, both of which Scholastics, and Thomas Aquinas in particular, would seek to reconcile with Christian theological doctrine. Two of the most important works in this tradition, which subsequently created a tradition, are the Summa contra Gentiles(1259-1264), and the Summa Theologica (Summary of Theology), (1265-1274), considered to be Thomas Aquinas’ masterwork. Within thus contains his renowned proofs for the existence of God through faith and reason, both of which, for the “angelic doctor,” originate in God.
http://www.egs.edu/library/thomas-aquinas/biography/


Christianity has been influenced by men philosophy, ideology, theology, schools of thoughts( theories) and culture. That is why it is important for Christians to study the history of their church and founders. So is Christianity today established on the teachings of JESUS(YESHUA) or Man's theology that is the reason for all the schisms within the Body of Christ!?!




Should we ask why people look to those you have mentioned foremostly? Is it because people believe they were mightily led of the Holy Spirit, or because they had great, academic/theological minds?
 
L

lumberjack

Guest
#20
I was pondering about has religion been influenced by man's ideology, philosophy, opinion, theories, schools of thoughts, Rome and Greek culture. Four men who have influenced religion are the following: Aristotle, Plato, St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas...

St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas didn't only "influence" religion, as christians they were "part"of it. Unlike Plato and Aristotle who were pagans.