3 View Points.

[john832]

But John, the word rendered "death" is qanatoß (thanatos), which is the "separation of the soul from the body, whether natural or violent, by which life on this Earth is ended, with the implied idea of future misery in hell." In other words, it has nothing to do with negating eternal misery.

Good post, but by leaving off v. 6, you miss the context of where Sodom and Gomorrah are, and that is in the same place as the rebellious angels " ... kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment in that great day ... " After Jude names Sodom and Gomorrah "and the cities around them," he shows that both those cities, and the rebellious angels, are " ... exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire."

Let's read verse 6...

Jud 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;

And whom are we referring to? Sodom and Gomorrah? No the angels are the ones God has reserved for eternal fire, not Sodom and Gomorrah.

Eternal means eternal. there is no other definition. "Eternal fire" therefore is fire without end, and just as God's fire didn't consume the burning bush, neither does it consume the flesh of the sinner. They will agonize in torment forever, just as God has said, just as Jesus has said.p

If that is truly the case, then Sodom and Gomorrah are still burning and where is the burning bush? Still burning?

not an eternal punishment. It is a prophecy fulfilled in Jeremiah 52:7-12. The sense of the Hebrew hbk (kabah) --"quenched" in Jeremiah 17:27 is of a finite event, not an eternal one. In other words, the fire remained "unquenched" until it has consumed the entire city. There is nothing indicating an eternal judgment in the passage, unlike the teaching of Jude 6, 7.

No, this is an example of the use of unquenchable. Unquenchable simply means a fire that is not quenched or put out. I don't know who these people are or what all they teach, but they have the truth concerning unquenchable fire...

Unquenchable Fire | Hell Truth

 

[SeaBass]

There seem to be 3 view points pertaining to those who do not believe in Jesus Christ and even those who believe in Jesus Christ yet do not follow Him.
　


1[SUP]st[/SUP]. Annihilation. Our Father will cause those, who do not believe and refuse to follow Jesus Christ, to no longer exist. They will perish.


2[SUP]nd[/SUP]. Eternal Torment. Our Father will send those, who do not believe and refuse to follow Jesus Christ, to a place where they will be tortured and punished for all eternity.


3[SUP]rd[/SUP]. Christian Universalism. Our Father will show those, who do not believe and refuse to follow Jesus Christ, His Love and they will then understand and all men then will confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
　


In our English translated bible there seem to be scriptures backing up all 3 view points.


Which view point do you have and why?

Can you give an example of a verse that 'seems' to back up #1 and #3?

 

[Alextor]

Can you give an example of a verse that 'seems' to back up #1 and #3?

There are many in which I will not list but give one for each as you have asked.

For #1. And with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2 Thess. 2:10

For #3. That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 2 Phil. 2:10-11

 

[Utah]

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

This pertains that all humans will one day acknowledge Jesus' divinity but it says nothing about everyone being saved because of that acknowledgment. For many, it will be too late.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Let's read verse 6...

Jud 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;

And whom are we referring to? Sodom and Gomorrah? No the angels are the ones God has reserved for eternal fire, not Sodom and Gomorrah.

Did you miss those commas in the early part of the verse, and the one at the end of the sentence? Your version uses a semi-colon, and that will work just as well. They aren't there in the Greek, but the sense of what Jude writes, as well as the incomplete thought at the end of the sentence, forces us to place them there in the English rendering. Why is that significant? Because it indicates that this is the uninterrupted thought, the one Jude would put down on paper if he did feel the need to explain in-depth "between the commas":

"And the angels who did not keep their own domain ... He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the Great day ... just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them ... are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

That's the central thought -- that the angels and Sodom and Gomorrah await the same final punishment in "eternal fire." That settles the issue, John.

If that is truly the case, then Sodom and Gomorrah are still burning and where is the burning bush? Still burning?

The people of Sodom and Gomorrah are, indeed, "still burning," and will do so forever.

No, this is an example of the use of unquenchable. Unquenchable simply means a fire that is not quenched or put out.

A fire that is fed by combustibles is, indeed, "unquenchable" if the fuel is sufficient to do so. This is, again, not eternal punishment. It is, as I said, fulfilled in Jeremiah 52:7-12. It was a temporal prophecy, not an eternal one.

I don't know who these people are or what all they teach, but they have the truth concerning unquenchable fire...[/QUOTE]No, they don't, and I am greatly concerned that you are willing to take the words of people you do not know, or what they teach, on one solitary subject -- regarding which they are wrong.

 

[john832]

***********

 

[SeaBass]

There are many in which I will not list but give one for each as you have asked.

For #1. And with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2 Thess. 2:10

For #3. That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 2 Phil. 2:10-11

Thanks, one verse was sufficient.

I do not see annihilation in 2 Thess 2:10. If the issue is with the word "perish" yet perish does not mean annihilation but a lost state separated from God.

Lk 19:10 "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost."

Lost is from the same Greek word perish is in 2 Thess 2:10. Certainly Jesus did not come to seek and save that which has been annihilated?


Substituting "annihilated" for "lost" we get:

Lk 17;33 "Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall be annihilated; and whosoever shall be annihilated his life shall preserve it.

Lk 15:32 "It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was annihilated, and is found."

2 Phil 2:10-11 does not mean everyone will be saved but everyone, but everyone "should" bow and "should" confess, not that they will for certain bow and confess. The previous verses say that Christ became a servant, took on the likeness of man and was obedient unto death wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name. Considering what Christ has done for mankind, every man then "should" bow and "should" confess Christ but obvious every man will not even those Christ died for them. Even though they will not bow and confess in this present life, they will in the next on judgment day in their shame acknowledge Jesus as Lord ( I believe even the devils will) but that will not save them.

 

[prove-all]

Can you give an example of a verse that 'seems' to back up #3?

Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them,
O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.

Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold,
they say,Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts​

 

[SeaBass]

Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them,
O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.

Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold,
they say,Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts​

I read "house of Israel" a prophecy of the church and all in the church will be saved. Those outside the church, body of Christ will be lost.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them,
O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.

Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold,
they say,Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts​

that does not support 3.

That is a prophesy of the return of a nation which died as a nation, and is reborn as a nation.

 

[prove-all]

Hell is an english word and that decieves the world.

the smoke smell will be pleasent to God.

mortals can die on there own,
ressurrected mortals die the second death.

immortals need help to die,
does God break his own commandment and kill.

The worms[maggots] will not die true, no not die but [ it changes]

into a fly over time naturally, but a fly [will die] on its own.


and the saints walk on ashes not people in pain i believe.


The eternal punishment is never to be no more for eternity period.


the wages of sin is death...

 

[john832]

Prove-all my friend, one thing we must remember...

Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

 

[Jason0047]

At this point I'm a little dumbfounded. So many people will jump on the topic of masturbation, or the topic of keeping the law or not, or something like "my bff dyed her hair blue, do you think that's wrong in the bible?"

But when someone wants your view on a subject that has some sort of deep meaning to it, yall clam up. Or maybe it's that you are questioning what you believe because you don't really know what to believe. Is it because some of you did not know that there were three different view points because you have only been taught one. How can a person even begin to understand the scriptures if the teaching they receive is one sided.

Anyway, Jason0047, thanks for your response. I've always wondered about that particular passage, more so recently. I know that Jesus always spoke to the people in parables, and yet we view this passage as not being a parable. That is confusing to me. If I remember correctly it was a statement that He had directed toward the Pharisees. Thanks for the thought.

All of Jesus's parables were all based on real life events that could happen (or probably has happened). None of the parables that Jesus gave were not fictional stories that could not happen. In fact, it is highly likely that Christ's parables probably did happen at some point in human history (Thereby confirming the truthfulness of His parables even more). For Jesus was a Truth teller and He was not One who cooked up fantasy type stories or fiction (So as to entertain people). Every parable he told was grounded in the real world so that people could relate to it. So this means the story of Lazarus is a real story because no parable was ever based on something that was not of the real world.

 

[PeterJens]

Jesus and parables. The problem with Jesus is the parables where not obvious, and often spoke of problems which would talk about attitudes or judgements the Lord will make. A conversation between the rich man and lazarus is a conversation talking about the rich man in the place of the dead, not the lake of fire. The rich man is punished, but cries out to go back to warn his relatives about this place but the answer is they have all been warned but have ignored it.
The punishment is not talked about being eternal just on going. The message is about change of perspective and listening while you can, not theology regarding the lake of fire. This makes extending parables too far is dangerous.

 

[phil112]

I believe in Dualistic Conditionalism............................

Really??? Do you smoke pot? I believe what the bible says and I don't need some idiot man to bring new terminology so I can understand clear scripture.
Jason, if you would try to study the bible, and when you don't understand pray to God for revelation, you'd be much better off. Ridiculous. So much liberalistic mumbo jumbo.
Dude, you listen to man too much. You desire someone to scratch your itching ears.

2 Thessalonians 1:8,9 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power"

That's what hell is - being away from God for eternity.

 

[phil112]

Jesus and parables. The problem with Jesus is the parables ..............................

The problem with you is thinking Jesus has a problem.

 

[Jason0047]

Really??? Do you smoke pot? I believe what the bible says and I don't need some idiot man to bring new terminology so I can understand clear scripture.
Jason, if you would try to study the bible, and when you don't understand pray to God for revelation, you'd be much better off. Ridiculous. So much liberalistic mumbo jumbo.
Dude, you listen to man too much. You desire someone to scratch your itching ears.

2 Thessalonians 1:8,9 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power"

That's what hell is - being away from God for eternity.

Well, your unloving personal commentary about my character aside, I did not make this decision lightly or overnight, but I was convinced by the ton of Scripture that supports such a view.

As for 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9: Well, what kind of picture do you think "destruction" conjures up to you, my friend? I know that if something is destroyed it is not still intact or whole. It is destroyed. Just as the word says.

Anyways, if you want to truly challenge your belief on this topic, check out this link here:

Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical
(Granted, they believe the Richman and Lazarus story is a parable and I do not;
For I believe it is a very real story as Scripture plainly says).
(However, they do offer tons of passages that refute Eternal Conscious Torment).
(For the Lake of Fire is a place where those will be destroyed both body and soul, though (Matthew 10:28)).

 

[MarcR]

Hell, as a place of eternal torment, was NOT created for mankind; but for Satan and his rebellious angels.

Jesus took the consequence of Adam's and Eve's ( and all mankind's) rebellion upon Himself so that no person ever has to endure that.

The ONLY thing that can send a person to Hell is choosing to reject Jesus provision for their sin, and thereby taking upon himself /herself personal condemnation.

 

[Jason0047]

I believe that such an answer is ignoring the problem, though. Can you really explain how God is good and loving and yet also explain how He can punish someone for a finite amount of crimes done against Him?

 

[crossnote]

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:12-15)

I don't see any annihilation here.