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There are many Christians that have faults. There are many Preachers that have been bound and if they say they were not the they are liars. It's mostly sexual immorality that strikes preachers and monks tend to love little boys. It all goes to show that the cross is the only answer for salvation and sanctification.
How is it a moral problem when God decides the morals? It's not immoral just because you don't particularly like it.
If people gives themselves over to Satan, they will go to Hell, and Satan will torment them. That's just it. God has provided a way to avoid Hell and He seeks those who seek Him--both loving acts. Is Hell too severe? Not so, given that sin without acceptance of salvation merits it. If a person willfully opposes God and His plan for salvation, it follows that they will go to Hell. I'm just not seeing how this is unfair or unjust. Especially given that the only One who was perfectly sinless and undeserving of Hell took on the punishment of our sins so we wouldn't have to. All we have to do is accept it, so if someone went to Hell...I mean seriously, they only had one job. Anyone who goes to Hell chooses it as an act of their own free will. Stop blaming God and trying to morally evaluate Him for another person's self-inflicted punishment when they chose to take on that punishment instead of accepting that Someone else already took that punishment for them.
If people gives themselves over to Satan, they will go to Hell, and Satan will torment them. That's just it. God has provided a way to avoid Hell and He seeks those who seek Him--both loving acts. Is Hell too severe? Not so, given that sin without acceptance of salvation merits it. If a person willfully opposes God and His plan for salvation, it follows that they will go to Hell. I'm just not seeing how this is unfair or unjust. Especially given that the only One who was perfectly sinless and undeserving of Hell took on the punishment of our sins so we wouldn't have to. All we have to do is accept it, so if someone went to Hell...I mean seriously, they only had one job. Anyone who goes to Hell chooses it as an act of their own free will. Stop blaming God and trying to morally evaluate Him for another person's self-inflicted punishment when they chose to take on that punishment instead of accepting that Someone else already took that punishment for them.
First, I really don't think it is just me. I can't think of anyone who honestly can explain the justice or goodness of God roasting the wicked for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes they done against Him. Does that sound like ....
"God is love" to you?
Second, Romans 2:14 says, "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:" Meaning, many unbelievers know what is right and wrong. For God designed people to have a conscience or a moral compass within them. In time, often this moral compass gets darkened because of sin.
In other words, if I told you a dictator had punished your family for lying to a diplomat within his country and they decided to torture your family for the rest of their lives for such a crime, would you think that such a thing was fair and just? No, of course not. Then why on Earth would you think God would torture people way beyond what the crime calls for good?
So the dictator negotiating to offer a way out for your family to be free changes the type of wrong justice he was going to do upon your family?
I don't think so.
"God is love" to you?
Second, Romans 2:14 says, "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:" Meaning, many unbelievers know what is right and wrong. For God designed people to have a conscience or a moral compass within them. In time, often this moral compass gets darkened because of sin.
In other words, if I told you a dictator had punished your family for lying to a diplomat within his country and they decided to torture your family for the rest of their lives for such a crime, would you think that such a thing was fair and just? No, of course not. Then why on Earth would you think God would torture people way beyond what the crime calls for good?
So the dictator negotiating to offer a way out for your family to be free changes the type of wrong justice he was going to do upon your family?
I don't think so.
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It doesn't have to be just you. There are those who explain, but maybe you just don't accept the explanation because you fundamentally just don't like the idea of Hell. It's okay to admit. I don't like it either; that's why I accept salvation. Hell is a choice; they made their bed, they lay in it. You want them to have mercy, which I'd say is probably coming from a good place and a good heart. But they were offered mercy like the rest of us and they rejected it. The question shouldn't be why "God [roasts] the wicked for all eternity" but why the wicked chose to roast for all eternity, when they didn't have to and could just as easily have chosen not to. Put the challenge where it belongs, that's all.
God is most definitely love. That's why there's a way to avoid Hell. By accepting one's salvation. You act as if Hell is unavoidable, but God has made a way for us to live with Him for eternity where it was not possible before.
What you do here, in your finite time on Earth, where all things good or bad are finite, will affect how you spend eternity. So the fact that the crime was finite and the punishment is eternal just doesn't seem to be pivotal to me in determining whether Hell is moral. Especially considering that the good we do is just as finite and the glorious reward (Heaven) is also eternal. So Heaven should be unfair or unjust to you by the same logic, that the consequence is much greater and longer-lasting than the act. So if that is not unfair or unjust to you by the same logic, then that just goes back to you simply not liking the idea of Hell.
We are undeserving of Heaven, but we can be there because of Jesus. We are deserving of Hell by our sin. We may think that Hell is harsh for our actions, but we just don't make the rules. We don't get to decide what's harsh. If anything is unfair, people should be pointing out how Heaven is way better than we could ever deserve or earn, but people just don't seem to be having a problem with that unfairness in our favor and that overwhelming manifestation of God's love for us.
God is just either way.
I really don't know how else to put that for you, because if you think Hell is immoral, that's gonna be what you think regardless of who explains or how many explain to you. And I'm not trying to put you down by saying that, I'm just saying that perhaps your idea of Hell right now is hindering you from understanding why Hell exists and how God is good and just for it.
I'm sorry, I'm just not sure what you're meaning to say in regards to my post with this verse. Are you saying that because people's moral compass gets darkened because of sin, that Hell is unjust? I don't want to put words in your mouth. But if that is what you're saying, then it sounds like you're just taking the heat off people for their own sin, which inevitably has consequences.
You keep going back to God torturing people, when those people would belong to Satan because they chose him over God. So Satan does with those people what he wishes. God let them choose that, but it was their choice. God didn't make us robots; people are responsible for what they choose through their God-given free will. Hell is a choice. People do that to themselves. They chose to take a punishment that was already taken for them by rejecting the One who took it for them.
If you were tortured, whipped, publicly humiliated, with nails driven through your hands and feet, a crown of thorns on your head, and left there in agony to die slowly on a cross for someone else's sin (which is already an act of unimaginable love) and then that person just outright denied that entire ordeal...please tell me all about how you would be better than God Himself and welcome that ingrate into your house with open arms? And please tell me how you should be considered unloving and unmerciful for not doing so after giving your life and paying it all for that person, so that they could have eternal life your Heavenly house that you did not have to offer to them at all?
People in Hell didn't want Jesus' salvation, so they didn't get it. Plain and simple.
Sin calls for Hell, and the people (of the Bible and today) were notified of this. I'd have no reason to think that the person in your example is fair and just. Why should I? Who are they? And what makes their justice different from mine, another human's? God doesn't serve wrong justice. He always give people a chance to get right with Him. They are made aware of the consequence of continuing in their sin, and they make a choice to stop or to continue and suffer that consequence. Either way, they make an informed decision.
It's always informed.
That's more merciful than man's law I'd say, because to us, ignorance of the law doesn't excuse anyone. But God always informs. He sounds more merciful and just than us to me.
I hope for this coming Easter that you begin to understand Jesus' sacrifice (the punishment and torture that He most certainly did not deserve, but no one seems to point out as unfair) as the merciful and loving way out of the Hell you feel is so immoral and unjustified.
I've explained enough, and I don't want to end up beating a dead horse.
God is most definitely love. That's why there's a way to avoid Hell. By accepting one's salvation. You act as if Hell is unavoidable, but God has made a way for us to live with Him for eternity where it was not possible before.
What you do here, in your finite time on Earth, where all things good or bad are finite, will affect how you spend eternity. So the fact that the crime was finite and the punishment is eternal just doesn't seem to be pivotal to me in determining whether Hell is moral. Especially considering that the good we do is just as finite and the glorious reward (Heaven) is also eternal. So Heaven should be unfair or unjust to you by the same logic, that the consequence is much greater and longer-lasting than the act. So if that is not unfair or unjust to you by the same logic, then that just goes back to you simply not liking the idea of Hell.
We are undeserving of Heaven, but we can be there because of Jesus. We are deserving of Hell by our sin. We may think that Hell is harsh for our actions, but we just don't make the rules. We don't get to decide what's harsh. If anything is unfair, people should be pointing out how Heaven is way better than we could ever deserve or earn, but people just don't seem to be having a problem with that unfairness in our favor and that overwhelming manifestation of God's love for us.
God is just either way.
I really don't know how else to put that for you, because if you think Hell is immoral, that's gonna be what you think regardless of who explains or how many explain to you. And I'm not trying to put you down by saying that, I'm just saying that perhaps your idea of Hell right now is hindering you from understanding why Hell exists and how God is good and just for it.
I'm sorry, I'm just not sure what you're meaning to say in regards to my post with this verse. Are you saying that because people's moral compass gets darkened because of sin, that Hell is unjust? I don't want to put words in your mouth. But if that is what you're saying, then it sounds like you're just taking the heat off people for their own sin, which inevitably has consequences.
You keep going back to God torturing people, when those people would belong to Satan because they chose him over God. So Satan does with those people what he wishes. God let them choose that, but it was their choice. God didn't make us robots; people are responsible for what they choose through their God-given free will. Hell is a choice. People do that to themselves. They chose to take a punishment that was already taken for them by rejecting the One who took it for them.
If you were tortured, whipped, publicly humiliated, with nails driven through your hands and feet, a crown of thorns on your head, and left there in agony to die slowly on a cross for someone else's sin (which is already an act of unimaginable love) and then that person just outright denied that entire ordeal...please tell me all about how you would be better than God Himself and welcome that ingrate into your house with open arms? And please tell me how you should be considered unloving and unmerciful for not doing so after giving your life and paying it all for that person, so that they could have eternal life your Heavenly house that you did not have to offer to them at all?
People in Hell didn't want Jesus' salvation, so they didn't get it. Plain and simple.
Sin calls for Hell, and the people (of the Bible and today) were notified of this. I'd have no reason to think that the person in your example is fair and just. Why should I? Who are they? And what makes their justice different from mine, another human's? God doesn't serve wrong justice. He always give people a chance to get right with Him. They are made aware of the consequence of continuing in their sin, and they make a choice to stop or to continue and suffer that consequence. Either way, they make an informed decision.
It's always informed.
That's more merciful than man's law I'd say, because to us, ignorance of the law doesn't excuse anyone. But God always informs. He sounds more merciful and just than us to me.
I hope for this coming Easter that you begin to understand Jesus' sacrifice (the punishment and torture that He most certainly did not deserve, but no one seems to point out as unfair) as the merciful and loving way out of the Hell you feel is so immoral and unjustified.
I've explained enough, and I don't want to end up beating a dead horse.
Whether or not Jesus got eternal fire or any fire is immaterial; because He died to deliver us from the need to face fire ourselves.
We have been given the means to avoid fire but the means to avoid fire has not been imposed on us.
Those of us who acknowledge that Jesus' payment on our behalf gives Him a claim on our lives avoid fire.
Those who reject His claim on their lives must make their own payment.
We have been given the means to avoid fire but the means to avoid fire has not been imposed on us.
Those of us who acknowledge that Jesus' payment on our behalf gives Him a claim on our lives avoid fire.
Those who reject His claim on their lives must make their own payment.
Years ago I used to think on this question. Why is it so many congregations continually hear fire and damnation sermons, and condemnation of the failure they have every week? Is this all their is to the gospel, continual failure.
Take a child and walking. At what point do you say the walking is perfect, and slight imbalances are not problems they are just the style. The point of walking is not to just walk but to get on and do other things.
The power of the gospel is LOVE, from the heart, cleansed, redeemed, caring for people by doing good works. Hell is about fear and keeping the flock from drifting away in case the fire gets them.
The message Jesus brought is sin leads to death, destruction, the decay of things, all things. The problem is the destructive nature of sin, and hell is the riding of those whose heart brings sin into the world and continually destroys.
Jesus came to show love conquers sin and death, that you can walk in victory, overcoming the problems of life. Now those preachers who go for the fire approach, go for the easy option. Love is not wishy washy it is hard, painful and real. It is about honesty and things we really care about. The powerful stand and say dare you say I am wrong and you will suffer, agree with me and my sin, and all will be well with you. So the price of being honest and open, is to show up the reality of this sin, to condemn the powerful and live a different way. But anything else is insane, it is to become sinners, destroyers of the very things we dearly care about. By loving Jesus's way, is love conquering all.
So where does hell feature as a punishment in terms of torture, but rather an ending of the source of sin and decay. The price to put things right, was Jesus showing us healing love, showing us a way to walk in righteousness with his love in our hearts powering us forwards. This is the gospel, pure and simple...
Take a child and walking. At what point do you say the walking is perfect, and slight imbalances are not problems they are just the style. The point of walking is not to just walk but to get on and do other things.
The power of the gospel is LOVE, from the heart, cleansed, redeemed, caring for people by doing good works. Hell is about fear and keeping the flock from drifting away in case the fire gets them.
The message Jesus brought is sin leads to death, destruction, the decay of things, all things. The problem is the destructive nature of sin, and hell is the riding of those whose heart brings sin into the world and continually destroys.
Jesus came to show love conquers sin and death, that you can walk in victory, overcoming the problems of life. Now those preachers who go for the fire approach, go for the easy option. Love is not wishy washy it is hard, painful and real. It is about honesty and things we really care about. The powerful stand and say dare you say I am wrong and you will suffer, agree with me and my sin, and all will be well with you. So the price of being honest and open, is to show up the reality of this sin, to condemn the powerful and live a different way. But anything else is insane, it is to become sinners, destroyers of the very things we dearly care about. By loving Jesus's way, is love conquering all.
So where does hell feature as a punishment in terms of torture, but rather an ending of the source of sin and decay. The price to put things right, was Jesus showing us healing love, showing us a way to walk in righteousness with his love in our hearts powering us forwards. This is the gospel, pure and simple...
The idea of an ever burning hell goes back to the first recorded lie. What did God tell Adam and Eve?
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
And what did the Devil tell them?
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
And they made the wrong choice and believed the Deceiver. They believed the lie.
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
And what did the Devil tell them?
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
And they made the wrong choice and believed the Deceiver. They believed the lie.
So, I think we all agree this scripture is true...
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Now, people who lived in Asia or South America 4000 years ago, made their bed they can lie in it? They never even heard the name. If this is your misrepresentation of a loving God, shame on you.
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Now, people who lived in Asia or South America 4000 years ago, made their bed they can lie in it? They never even heard the name. If this is your misrepresentation of a loving God, shame on you.
What does the bible teach us about humans? We do not like the way God does things, and will often look for any excuse to do something else.
Adam and Eve - The tree of knowledge sounds like a good thing, nah, it will not kill you...
Noahs generation - We can be as great a God, we can rule, do what we like, and so what...
Israel - We can fight these guys even if God is not with us...
Deciples - You do not need to die to save us...
Church - We can be good people with our cermonies...
Few really find God, with their hearts, with honesty and openness. Few find love conquers all, and get lost along the way.
How many who go to church know what they should know, or do not run after, give to God and he will give more back to you, like a lottery ticket, you will rule, dominate.
Eternal hell does not make sense, but destruction, wiping the slate clean, now that is justice.
What is the punishment for murder? Torture, or death.
The catholic church invented a gravy train, by surely there cannot be eternal punishment, you can buy your way out, with masses said for you. How does this make any sense?
What is a person but how they react and deal with things around them? Can a person who rebels within their soul ever change? The answer appears to be no. Think about the model, after you die you get shown two doors, one to hell, one to heaven. You can choose. Which would people choose? I wonder if the sad reality is they would choose hell because for them heaven is hell. Jesus put it in terms of the threshing floor. The good seed gets knocked out and the husks get left behind. Imagine most people are just husks, bumbling along, disjointed and not adding up. Once realilty comes, they have to be put together, complete, suddenly it is found there is nothing that connects.
I think this is the nature of sin, and love set free in the heart. The only place of acceptance is now here, where things are fuzzy and rebellion is not complete. But the harder and clearer it is, the harder it is to switch.
Adam and Eve - The tree of knowledge sounds like a good thing, nah, it will not kill you...
Noahs generation - We can be as great a God, we can rule, do what we like, and so what...
Israel - We can fight these guys even if God is not with us...
Deciples - You do not need to die to save us...
Church - We can be good people with our cermonies...
Few really find God, with their hearts, with honesty and openness. Few find love conquers all, and get lost along the way.
How many who go to church know what they should know, or do not run after, give to God and he will give more back to you, like a lottery ticket, you will rule, dominate.
Eternal hell does not make sense, but destruction, wiping the slate clean, now that is justice.
What is the punishment for murder? Torture, or death.
The catholic church invented a gravy train, by surely there cannot be eternal punishment, you can buy your way out, with masses said for you. How does this make any sense?
What is a person but how they react and deal with things around them? Can a person who rebels within their soul ever change? The answer appears to be no. Think about the model, after you die you get shown two doors, one to hell, one to heaven. You can choose. Which would people choose? I wonder if the sad reality is they would choose hell because for them heaven is hell. Jesus put it in terms of the threshing floor. The good seed gets knocked out and the husks get left behind. Imagine most people are just husks, bumbling along, disjointed and not adding up. Once realilty comes, they have to be put together, complete, suddenly it is found there is nothing that connects.
I think this is the nature of sin, and love set free in the heart. The only place of acceptance is now here, where things are fuzzy and rebellion is not complete. But the harder and clearer it is, the harder it is to switch.
Gotta disagree here...
Lev 26:18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
God does punish but He punishes in love and mercy. His punishment is meted out to bring about repentance from sin.
Lev 26:18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
God does punish but He punishes in love and mercy. His punishment is meted out to bring about repentance from sin.
Well, I used to believe in Eternal Concious Torment for a long while. Then I was on the fence (Believing Eternal Hell and Conditional Immortality as both being possibilities). I didn't want to just make assumptions. So I prayed and studied on the topic for a long while from an objective standpoint of what the Bible says versus what the majority of churches say.
You can check out this thread here on how I was trying to defend both views
(When I used to believe both as a possibility):
ECT How can God be loving and send then someone to Hell? - Theology Online | Christian Forums & More
In fact, I did a lot of heavy research on trying to justify Eternal Torment and I did not really find an answer that was truly satisfying.
We both don't like it. Agreed. Therein lies the problem. For why should you hate something that the Bible teaches to be good and true? Why can't you explain it? Does not the Spirit lead us into all truth? Don't you think some believer out there would have figured it out by now and given us an explanation as to why Hell is loving, fair, just, and good? Can Eternal Torment be made into a parable? I say thee nay. All false theologies cannot be made into a parable (or real world example). Yet, Jesus illustrated spiritual truth all the time with real world examples.
Again, this is an avoidance of the problem. You are doing a slight of hand magic trick of trying to divert my attention elsewhere while the big elephant still is in the room for all to see.
I never said Hell (Which is a real place) and the Lake of Fire which will destroy a person both body and soul is not unavoidable. That is not what we are talking about. We are talking about whether or not Eternal Torture in flames for a finite amount of crimes done against God is fair and just.
No, I believe there is a Hell (Torments) but I don't believe it is a torture chamber where people burn in flames. The richman was tormented by the heat of the flame that was in front of him that was in the great gulf fixed between him and Abraham. For how can a man carry on a normal conversion if he is held down in a campfire? Why didn't the richman ask for buckets of water instead of just a little water to cool his tongue? Does that sound like a man who is engulfed in flame? I say thee nay.
I also believe God will destroy and punish everyone fairly in the Lake of Fire for the crimes they have done. They will not suffer any longer than what the crime calls for. For God is good and fair in His judgments.
For did not Jesus say, I have come to give you life and that you can have it more abundantly? Why would Jesus give life and give it more abundantly unto the wicked, too? That doesn't make any sense. 1 Timothy 6:16 says Jesus alone has immortality. 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life. So one has eternal life because of Jesus Christ. Yes, there will be a resurrection of the damned. But they will be destroyed both body and soul in Gehenna, i.e. the Lake of Fire as Jesus had said in Matthew 10:28. Jesus will not be abiding or living in the wicked so as to give them life in the Lake of Fire for all eternity. For life can only be found in the Son (1 John 5:12); And Jesus alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16).
When we shut off our brains about what is good and right we fall prey to being victims. Sort of like when Jim Jone's congregation had shut off their brains in what they knew to be good and right whereby they all killed themselves.
God is just indeed. But we can explain His justice and goodness. It is not a mystery.
It's not what I think. It's what Scripture teaches. Remember, I was on the fence and believed both Eternal Torment and Conditional Immortality as both being true. I did a deep study on the matter and researched both sides objectively looking at Scripture. If you don't want to see it, that is your choice. But it would not be a Scriptural one.
Sin does have consequences and I am totally NOT side stepping or excusing fair punishment or justice at all. No way. That would be crazy. Fair justice and punishment will be carried out. For how did God tell his people (the Israelites) to carry out justice? Was justice quick and swift? Or did God tell his people to torture others and keep them alive and torture them some more? Remember, an eye for an eye? But if you believe in Eternal Torment it would not be an eye for an eye (Which is fair justice). It would be... and endless supply of eyes taken for one eye instead.
Because you don't want to deal with the moral issue of it. Yes. That is why I keep bring it up.
Again, this is an avoidance of the issue. We are not talking about whether we have a choice to escape the Lake of Fire or not. We are talking about whether one thinks that burning for all eternity is fair and just for a finite amount of crimes.
Jesus did not suffer for all eternity in flames for our our sins. That should be another clue that God fairly judges sin.
Imagine that nice old lady accross the street who believed in some other religion roasting alive as you dance along the golden streets in Heaven. How could you be truly comforted at such a thought?
I made the illustration because Jesus made the same type of illustrations or real world examples. Unless you have no moral compass of what is good and right, you would not be happy to see your family tortured alive for the rest of their lives for breaking a minor law in some other country. That is not fair justice.
Well, we can agree on the mercy part, but we do not agree on the justice part. I really don't see how man could top your version of God torturing people for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes. Sorry, no man has ever done that.
I realize all too well that Jesus was innocent and did not deserve any kind of punishment. But we also have to realize that it pleased God the Father to crush the Son, too (Isaiah 53:10). For it was by doing so that God the Father could be reconciled back to mankind.
You can check out this thread here on how I was trying to defend both views
(When I used to believe both as a possibility):
ECT How can God be loving and send then someone to Hell? - Theology Online | Christian Forums & More
In fact, I did a lot of heavy research on trying to justify Eternal Torment and I did not really find an answer that was truly satisfying.
We both don't like it. Agreed. Therein lies the problem. For why should you hate something that the Bible teaches to be good and true? Why can't you explain it? Does not the Spirit lead us into all truth? Don't you think some believer out there would have figured it out by now and given us an explanation as to why Hell is loving, fair, just, and good? Can Eternal Torment be made into a parable? I say thee nay. All false theologies cannot be made into a parable (or real world example). Yet, Jesus illustrated spiritual truth all the time with real world examples.
Again, this is an avoidance of the problem. You are doing a slight of hand magic trick of trying to divert my attention elsewhere while the big elephant still is in the room for all to see.
I never said Hell (Which is a real place) and the Lake of Fire which will destroy a person both body and soul is not unavoidable. That is not what we are talking about. We are talking about whether or not Eternal Torture in flames for a finite amount of crimes done against God is fair and just.
No, I believe there is a Hell (Torments) but I don't believe it is a torture chamber where people burn in flames. The richman was tormented by the heat of the flame that was in front of him that was in the great gulf fixed between him and Abraham. For how can a man carry on a normal conversion if he is held down in a campfire? Why didn't the richman ask for buckets of water instead of just a little water to cool his tongue? Does that sound like a man who is engulfed in flame? I say thee nay.
I also believe God will destroy and punish everyone fairly in the Lake of Fire for the crimes they have done. They will not suffer any longer than what the crime calls for. For God is good and fair in His judgments.
For did not Jesus say, I have come to give you life and that you can have it more abundantly? Why would Jesus give life and give it more abundantly unto the wicked, too? That doesn't make any sense. 1 Timothy 6:16 says Jesus alone has immortality. 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life. So one has eternal life because of Jesus Christ. Yes, there will be a resurrection of the damned. But they will be destroyed both body and soul in Gehenna, i.e. the Lake of Fire as Jesus had said in Matthew 10:28. Jesus will not be abiding or living in the wicked so as to give them life in the Lake of Fire for all eternity. For life can only be found in the Son (1 John 5:12); And Jesus alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16).
When we shut off our brains about what is good and right we fall prey to being victims. Sort of like when Jim Jone's congregation had shut off their brains in what they knew to be good and right whereby they all killed themselves.
God is just indeed. But we can explain His justice and goodness. It is not a mystery.
It's not what I think. It's what Scripture teaches. Remember, I was on the fence and believed both Eternal Torment and Conditional Immortality as both being true. I did a deep study on the matter and researched both sides objectively looking at Scripture. If you don't want to see it, that is your choice. But it would not be a Scriptural one.
Sin does have consequences and I am totally NOT side stepping or excusing fair punishment or justice at all. No way. That would be crazy. Fair justice and punishment will be carried out. For how did God tell his people (the Israelites) to carry out justice? Was justice quick and swift? Or did God tell his people to torture others and keep them alive and torture them some more? Remember, an eye for an eye? But if you believe in Eternal Torment it would not be an eye for an eye (Which is fair justice). It would be... and endless supply of eyes taken for one eye instead.
Because you don't want to deal with the moral issue of it. Yes. That is why I keep bring it up.
Again, this is an avoidance of the issue. We are not talking about whether we have a choice to escape the Lake of Fire or not. We are talking about whether one thinks that burning for all eternity is fair and just for a finite amount of crimes.
Jesus did not suffer for all eternity in flames for our our sins. That should be another clue that God fairly judges sin.
Imagine that nice old lady accross the street who believed in some other religion roasting alive as you dance along the golden streets in Heaven. How could you be truly comforted at such a thought?
I made the illustration because Jesus made the same type of illustrations or real world examples. Unless you have no moral compass of what is good and right, you would not be happy to see your family tortured alive for the rest of their lives for breaking a minor law in some other country. That is not fair justice.
Well, we can agree on the mercy part, but we do not agree on the justice part. I really don't see how man could top your version of God torturing people for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes. Sorry, no man has ever done that.
I realize all too well that Jesus was innocent and did not deserve any kind of punishment. But we also have to realize that it pleased God the Father to crush the Son, too (Isaiah 53:10). For it was by doing so that God the Father could be reconciled back to mankind.
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