3 View Points.

Alextor · Mar 29, 2015

There seem to be 3 view points pertaining to those who do not believe in Jesus Christ and even those who believe in Jesus Christ yet do not follow Him.
　

1[SUP]st[/SUP]. Annihilation. Our Father will cause those, who do not believe and refuse to follow Jesus Christ, to no longer exist. They will perish.

2[SUP]nd[/SUP]. Eternal Torment. Our Father will send those, who do not believe and refuse to follow Jesus Christ, to a place where they will be tortured and punished for all eternity.

3[SUP]rd[/SUP]. Christian Universalism. Our Father will show those, who do not believe and refuse to follow Jesus Christ, His Love and they will then understand and all men then will confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
　

In our English translated bible there seem to be scriptures backing up all 3 view points.

Which view point do you have and why?

Jason0047 · Mar 29, 2015

I believe in Dualistic Conditionalism.

It is the belief that Hell or Torments is a real place and that the Lake of Fire is a place where the body and soul will be destroyed. The richman in Hell was not tortured in flame but by the heat of the flame of that was in front of him in the great gulf between him and Abraham.

Jason0047 · Mar 29, 2015

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/104767-what-your-view-hell-lake-fire-loving.html

Alextor · Mar 31, 2015

At this point I'm a little dumbfounded. So many people will jump on the topic of masturbation, or the topic of keeping the law or not, or something like "my bff dyed her hair blue, do you think that's wrong in the bible?"

But when someone wants your view on a subject that has some sort of deep meaning to it, yall clam up. Or maybe it's that you are questioning what you believe because you don't really know what to believe. Is it because some of you did not know that there were three different view points because you have only been taught one. How can a person even begin to understand the scriptures if the teaching they receive is one sided.

Anyway, Jason0047, thanks for your response. I've always wondered about that particular passage, more so recently. I know that Jesus always spoke to the people in parables, and yet we view this passage as not being a parable. That is confusing to me. If I remember correctly it was a statement that He had directed toward the Pharisees. Thanks for the thought.

john832 · Mar 31, 2015

#1 - The wages of sin is death, not eternal life in some place of torment.

PeterJens · Mar 31, 2015

Alextor said:

This is an important topic but the title "3 view points" is very unclear.

Some time ago I started looking at this subject and realised the idea of eternal torture for a mortal existance did not make sense. People are lost in their sin, part of a system that does not work and traps them within. Unfortunately the trap is also self inflicted and the answer is to get real, and recognise the need and call out to Jesus for help.

All the parables except lazarus appear to imply destruction rather than torture. Also the idea of eternal suffering of mortal being for all eternity with no purpose does not seem to match with love and care, where everything has an end.

The flip side to this is the rebellion of eternal beings who stood before the Lord, and who truly stand as an eternal warning of rebellion where punishment meets the crime, I can understand.

So that is where I stand with option one, destruction of those unsaved or the 2nd death...

Yet · Mar 31, 2015

The number of verses that point to annihilation out weigh those that appear to point to eternal torment. I see eternal punishment as speaking to the final results of 'destroy/perish' which means there is no coming back from non existence. I also lean toward the thought of God expunging all His creation from sin. If millions are still 'in their sin' suffering eternal torment, then 'sin' is still within His creation.
Also this thought. If Jesus suffered just a few hours to pay for one persons sins, let alone untold billions, then torturing one person for their sins throughout eternity seems strange.
Now concerning Gods character. If an inhuman monster wouldn't torture another human being beyond a certain point but God would, what does that make God?
'Its a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God' for sure. It won't be pretty and that's as it should be, but to torture millions or billions forever, what would be the point? Would that make eternal bliss more blessed? Would that make a God more cheerful?

Jonathan Edwards preached a message on hell exclaiming in so many words 'and the saints will be able to look into the lake of fire and see the screaming millions, including mom and dad, and then rejoice with great joy that they themselves are not there but are in heaven, happy campers'. Google it.
Does that shed a little light on this foul doctrine? I mean are you going to be able to dance a jolly jig while watching baby sister writhe in torture in flames of fire like that Jordanian pilot except that she never succumbs to the flames, never dies?

Willie-T · Mar 31, 2015

Alextor said:

I think you may find this is because blustering back and forth about something none of us really know the truth of anyway, makes not one bit of difference in what God decreed and will do.

Being concerned about something we can. perhaps, help with does. And some people feel it is more important to help people live their everyday lives than it is to argue theories about things we cannot affect anyway.

Just a possible reason.

eternally-gratefull · Mar 31, 2015

I disagree with them all. Although I would lean toward 2.

God said those who are nt adopted as his children will be separated from him for all eternity, their will be weeping, and gnashing of teeth.

people will be torturing themselves. not God torturing them. I do not agree with #1, thats the easy way out.

dcontroversal · Mar 31, 2015

I will just stick with what the bible has to say, what Jesus had to say and will say the following...

It seems completely moronic to preach about, warn about, testify about and use a non-existent place that does not exist to cause one to fear if it was not literal.....

Jesus said, I will tell you who to fear...one who can kill and cast into hell..............where the fire is NOT quenched....

Jesus said...the rich man died and lift up his eyes in HELL being in torments (torcher)

Jesus said, another book was opened...The book of life and everyone found not written in the book will be cast alive into the LAKE of FIRE (where death and hell have been cast) and the SMOKE of their torment shall ascend for ever and ever......

Like I said....very foolish and misleading to use a non-existent place and warning about it if it does not exist....

I think I will take the Lord at his word.....!

3Scoreand10 · Mar 31, 2015

dcontroversal said:

I will just stick with what the bible has to say, what Jesus had to say and will say the following...

It seems completely moronic to preach about, warn about, testify about and use a non-existent place that does not exist to cause one to fear if it was not literal.....

Jesus said, I will tell you who to fear...one who can kill and cast into hell..............where the fire is NOT quenched....

Jesus said...the rich man died and lift up his eyes in HELL being in torments (torcher)

Jesus said, another book was opened...The book of life and everyone found not written in the book will be cast alive into the LAKE of FIRE (where death and hell have been cast) and the SMOKE of their torment shall ascend for ever and ever......

Like I said....very foolish and misleading to use a non-existent place and warning about it if it does not exist....

I think I will take the Lord at his word.....!

I totally agree with DC

Viligant_Warrior · Mar 31, 2015

It is simple. Christ settled this argument nearly 2,000 years ago.

Matthew 25, NASB
46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Mark 9
47 "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,
48 where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED."

In addition, Luke 16:19-31 clearly speaks of fire providing eternal torment, not destruction. People who claim annihilation is what the Bible teaches will claim the "second death" is a destruction of the body, but it is not. The "second death" is the spiritual death, which they began to suffer on this Earth by not having a relationship with Jesus Christ and which will be fully realized -- forever -- in the eternal flames of hellfire.

eternally-gratefull · Mar 31, 2015

We can look at it with two examples. Fire being literal fire or a fire in ones heart.

Lets say legalism is the way to heaven, When I get to God, and find out I am doomed for eternity because I did not obey him a certain way, I will be sent away from him forever, Every moment of eternity, I will remember all those who told me I was wrong, I will remember them by name, By the time they told me, and how I rejected their please, I will spend eternity crying, gnashing my death, horrified that I was so close, yet so far th

en we can turn it around, we are saved by faith apart from works, and salvation is eternal. all those who thought they were saved by works will be crying out to God, all those things they did in his name, how they faithfully served him by obeying his laws. and did not fall into sin. They too will be told depart from me. For all eternity, they will remember every time they were told they were following a dead path to eternity, that their works will mean nothing, that God saves on faith, not works, they will remember every time they told someone they did not love God, they followed easy believism. Every time God tried to talk to the, how they were so close, yet so far. How it is worse for them than someone who outright rejected God, because they had salvation in their hands, and rejected it, and replaced it with their works.

for both of these people. there will be an eternal weeping and gnashing of teath, as God says, where the worm (soul) does not die, and the fire is not quenched.

AuphirahQueen · Mar 31, 2015

Alextor said:

At this point I'm a little dumbfounded. So many people will jump on the topic of masturbation, or the topic of keeping the law or not, or something like "my bff dyed her hair blue, do you think that's wrong in the bible?"

But when someone wants your view on a subject that has some sort of deep meaning to it, yall clam up. Or maybe it's that you are questioning what you believe because you don't really know what to believe. Is it because some of you did not know that there were three different view points because you have only been taught one. How can a person even begin to understand the scriptures if the teaching they receive is one sided.

Anyway, Jason0047, thanks for your response. I've always wondered about that particular passage, more so recently. I know that Jesus always spoke to the people in parables, and yet we view this passage as not being a parable. That is confusing to me. If I remember correctly it was a statement that He had directed toward the Pharisees. Thanks for the thought.

So True!! Very one dimensional! Keep nice, simple and agreeable in this forum because if a person think outside the box. Be prepare for the battle. Chuckling!!

kennethcadwell · Mar 31, 2015

By what the bible says we can not agree with one point you gave in and of itself, since the bible does support points 1 and 2 both but does not support 3 at all. The bible only would support 3 while a person still lives in the flesh, and God's love and mercy leads them to repentance.

The bible does support different degrees of punishment (Luke 12:45-48) depending on how one lived, just like it supports different rewards (1 Corinthians 3:14-15) for how believers in Him lived. The bible does show that the liking's of the man of sin and false prophet will both be tormented forever (Revelation 20:10), however this does not apply to all non-believers. If it did then Luke 12 would be in contradiction which we know the bible does not do!!!

Willie-T · Mar 31, 2015

eternally-gratefull said:

Brother, how few of us seem to want to believe THAT.

john832 · Mar 31, 2015

Viligant_Warrior said:

Two opposites here, eternal punishment or eternal life...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Here is some eternal fire...

Jud 1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Are Sodom and Gomorrah still burning? Or was the fire an eternal judgment?

Mark 9

Click to expand...

see Jude 7.

Jer 17:27 "But if you will not heed Me to hallow the Sabbath day, such as not carrying a burden when entering the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day, then I will kindle a fire in its gates, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched." ' "

The gates of Jerusalem still burning? Unquenched simply means not put out, doesn't mean it won't burn out eventually, means it will not be quenched.

Oh and there are a few more straightforward passages here...

Eze 18:4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.

Eze 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Mal 4:1 "For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says the LORD of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But to you who fear My name The Sun of Righteousness shall arise With healing in His wings; And you shall go out And grow fat like stall-fed calves.
Mal 4:3 You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this," Says the LORD of hosts.

Viligant_Warrior · Mar 31, 2015

john832 said:

But John, the word rendered "death" is qanatoß (thanatos), which is the "separation of the soul from the body, whether natural or violent, by which life on this Earth is ended, with the implied idea of future misery in hell." In other words, it has nothing to do with negating eternal misery.

john832 said:

Good post, but by leaving off v. 6, you miss the context of where Sodom and Gomorrah are, and that is in the same place as the rebellious angels " ... kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment in that great day ... " After Jude names Sodom and Gomorrah "and the cities around them," he shows that both those cities, and the rebellious angels, are " ... exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire."

Eternal means eternal. there is no other definition. "Eternal fire" therefore is fire without end, and just as God's fire didn't consume the burning bush, neither does it consume the flesh of the sinner. They will agonize in torment forever, just as God has said, just as Jesus has said.

john832 said:

This is not an eternal punishment. It is a prophecy fulfilled in Jeremiah 52:7-12. The sense of the Hebrew hbk (kabah) --"quenched" in Jeremiah 17:27 is of a finite event, not an eternal one. In other words, the fire remained "unquenched" until it has consumed the entire city. There is nothing indicating an eternal judgment in the passage, unlike the teaching of Jude 6, 7.

kennethcadwell · Mar 31, 2015

Matthew 10:28

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Utah · Mar 31, 2015

Psalm 1
John 3:16-18
Matthew 13:40-43

3 View Points.

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