Brothers turn against brothers
- Thread starter VW
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There's not a justifiable reason for it, however the Bible tells us that nation shall rise against nation, brother against brother, sisters, mothers and daughters, etc. etc. Sad as it is to say, it is written. I can't recall that verse right off hand, but I know it IS there. It's painful to see, it not only hurts us, but most and worse of all it hurts the Lord to see His children this way. However as I said, it is written. God bless you. keep praying, seeking God, humbling down, and everything. Hold on tight, the ride hasn't even began just yet. Things will get worse before they get better. They take a turn, then finally when people get sick of it, and can't take it anymore, then they finally turn to God....when they should just turn to Him in the first place.
But there are so many things to agree on, why must we attack others about doctrines? I have been here for a little while, and I have looked at some of what is said, and although there are some spirited discussions, there have also been some words which can only be called personal attacks. And I have yet to see one here who is not in love with the Lord Jesus. Is not Christ large enough for us all?
S
While it is true that some commit ad hominem (argument against the man) rather than substantive arguments, some folks want to scream that when their view is scrutinized.
Truth has nothing to lose under examination. True some look for opportunities to debate, but most simply have a love for the truth.
If a view is considered out of bounds, it should be questioned. If a view is ****able heresy, it should be flushed out so folks can know it.
Lets love souls and the truth enough to say something. Lets not be so wimpy that we can't take it.
PS>>> "Not everyone who says to be Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven." -- Jesus
Truth has nothing to lose under examination. True some look for opportunities to debate, but most simply have a love for the truth.
If a view is considered out of bounds, it should be questioned. If a view is ****able heresy, it should be flushed out so folks can know it.
Lets love souls and the truth enough to say something. Lets not be so wimpy that we can't take it.
PS>>> "Not everyone who says to be Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven." -- Jesus
That is exactly what I wrote, why attack the person. And as for the other things, Jesus is the truth.
Jesus said, not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of heaven." He was blunt and said that to those who said that they had done great things in His name, He would tell them, "I never knew you."
His words, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father by by Me."
Jesus said, not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of heaven." He was blunt and said that to those who said that they had done great things in His name, He would tell them, "I never knew you."
His words, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father by by Me."
C
I agree that there is too many attacks that are personal. Sometimes this is done in the heat of discussion and there needs to be reconciliation. I am most concerned when this happens on the post of one who is new in the Lord, we need to be careful that we do not cause a new Christian to stumble. This does not mean that we should not defend the faith, but remember what it says in Jude, that even the angel Michael when contending for the bones of Moses, rather than making a railing judgement against Satan, said "The Lord rebuke you."
E
The bible teaches that we are to test all things in light of scripture, but we should do so in gentleness and respect. The reason we are to test all things with scripture is to avoid false prophets/teachings to arise. Sadly in this day and age there are many who believe what they are told the bible says without having tested it against what the scriptures really say. There are many, many false beliefs out there right now and it seems like any new idea on a matter should be accepted, even when that idea is tested against scripture and is proven unbiblical.
In essentials, unity;
nonessentials, liberty;
and in all things charity
In essentials, unity;
nonessentials, liberty;
and in all things charity
[24] And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kindly to every one, an apt teacher, forbearing,
[25] correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth,
[26] and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. 2 Tim 2:24-26 RSV
I try to ignore insults and stay on subject.
[25] correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth,
[26] and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. 2 Tim 2:24-26 RSV
I try to ignore insults and stay on subject.
Hey, that is what we should do, but....we have a sensitive heart, else we would not be His. A hard heart will not see or feel the love of God that is Jesus Christ. I wound to the heart is deeper than any other.
It is interesting about this passage in 2 timothy. Captured by the devil to do his will. I will have to remember that for when I get angry and want to abuse someone else, anyone else.
thanks
It is interesting about this passage in 2 timothy. Captured by the devil to do his will. I will have to remember that for when I get angry and want to abuse someone else, anyone else.
thanks
S
Let's be honest here and get it out in the open because this poster is not really curious more than he is looking for support because he has been wounded because of omething said about him. Let's take a look at what was said and who said it. The one who is the cause of this man being offended is me and it seems that he is not the only one lately. I have copied the posts so that others can read for themselves. They will be my judge. If they conclude that what I said was out of line and it warrants an apology or somthing stronger, I will comply and do it for the body of Christ's sake, but if none is warranted then this man is only complaining because he has a self inflicted wound because of some kind of sensativity that reacts when others do not agree or say things that he feels misrepresents his motives or words in some manner. Here are the posts and who ever the shoe fits, put it on and take the heat.
The thread title that the following posts and topic being discussed is, Idols: Has the bible become an idol? This is very important to remember as you read the posts and the content that is being communicated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VW
Anyway, I cannot in good conscience subject the Spirit to the scripture, because the scripture came from the Spirit, and the lesser always comes from the Greater. Look to the Lord Jesus, who came from God, and submitted Himself to God, because He came forth from God. If in our minds and hearts, the Spirit is subject to the scripture, then the scripture has become an idol to us.
I hate bringing this subject up, because it is so fraught with beliefs that have endured for many centuries. I do not do this because I want to. If I have offended, I ask forgiveness in His mercy.
Shad's response
The worlds (or ages of time) were framed by the word of God / Heb 11:3. Heaven and earth shall pass away but my words shall not pass away / Mt 24:35. The words I speak unto you are spirit and life / John 6:63. Man shall live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God / Mt 4:4. And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God / Eph 6:17.
John 13:16 'Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him'.
John 15:26 'But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me'.
John 14:26 'But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you'.
John 6:13-15 'Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
From these scriptures, we can see the relationship of the Spirit to Christ, to the believer and the words of Christ that we have been given by inspiration of God. There is no debate only an acceptance of truth by grace and through humility.
VW's Response
I don't see anything different in these scriptures than what I have been writing. Unless you equate the bible to Jesus. Which I most emphatically do not. Jesus is not something I can hold in my hand on a piece of paper, which it was decided by men what should be contained therein. It has even been proposed that the scripture which you quoted above been removed from the bible by theologians.
Jesus is life, to everything which has and will ever have life. If the bible has any life, which it does, it is through Jesus. That Jesus is the living word does not make the written word to be God.
Shad's Response
Would you furthur explain the highlighted portion of your post that is in blue? What scriptures are you referring to?
VW's Response
The entire gospel of John. Modern theologian hold this gospel to be too spiritual, which to them equates to esoterical. I find this amazing. If these same men had been present when the cannon was bound, we would have had a much different bible.
VW's Comments
If a person hears wrong, or is even deceived in what he takes to be from the Spirit, at least he is trying to hear from the Spirit, and the Lord is able to correct that one in love, and to right any wrong which may have been done. The argument that we must test everything received by the Spirit with the scriptures is flawed, because how do I know that I understand the scriptures correctly? I have seen the scriptures misused so many times I cannot count them. More often than I have seen them used correctly. Why? Because knowledge and reasoning do not equate love. If you want a test of your revelation from the Spirit, then this is the one test which is true in Him, love. If it is not in and because of and for love from God, then it is not of the Spirit. And even in this test, you can know the love of God? For His love, He sent His only Son to perish for us. Who would have thought?
The only reason I can see for using the scripture to test the revelation of the Spirit is control. A seeking for order in the church by making things standard. "Let's all believe the same way, just as it is written down in the book, and everything will be great." That has obviously not worked. Our unity is in His love by His Spirit.
Shad's Comments
On a follow up inquiry, if you put so much confidence in the Holy Spirit without being subject to the written word, why don't you take the written word of God that you have on paper, every word of it, and put it on the shelf. If you have the Spirit to lead you and guide you, what purpose do you possibly have for the word of God? Your inspiration would come from the Spirit and according to you that is all you need. You have said that you do not need the written word, in so many words. You could live by the Spirit without the knowledge of God and our Lord Jesus Christ according to you, isn't that right? This is probably how Abraham lived and all those before the law. Or perhaps like Adam and his wife Eve when God came to them in the cool of the day to talk with them and teach them with His words.
Does the Holy Spirit have a real purpose for the written word of God? If so, what would that be? Wouldn't it be better to speak what the Holy Spirit tells you personally, without the written word? Then everyone could say that they have heard from God and this is what He is saying and what He wants. If that happened how would we know what is from God and what might be counterfeit from Satan? Where would our faith come from if the written word is not needed? Can a man know who Christ is, what He did and have the mind of Christ without the written word? If he can, why don't you be the one who proves that? I'm sorry, you can go by the written word because that tells you to prove all things and hold fast to the good. I guess you will have to depend completely on the Spirit for that.
We get light through the entrance of God's word. There is not one verse in 32,000 that are in the Bible that mention that we get any light from the Holy Spirit. The only thing that comes close is when the Spirit convicts of sin, righteousness and judgment, but we only know that is true from the written word. If you do not have to depend on the written word and the testimony of the scriptures, how are you going to be able to prove that Christ was born of a virgin, manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world and received up into glory? If we do not count on and esteem the written word as the inspired words of truth concerning these things, what written documents are we going to rely upon as a testimony of our Lord Jesus Christ? Is the inspiration of the Holy Spirit going to be the witness and testimony of the gospel that we are to preach to all the world and every creature? There is so much more.
One last thing.
John 5:38-47
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41 I receive not honour from men.
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
Shad's Comments
You have a man here, (VW) that started this thread, who would be alright if the gospel of John was not canonized with the rest of the scriptures because it has been pronounced by some as being 'too spiritual'. In other words the gospel of John is really not inspired by God and it would be okay if you did not acknowledge it as part of the scriptures. He is saying that you don't have to accept what the gospel of John teaches, nor what is testifies about being born again or anything it testifies concerning Christ. And John is a man that was an original apostle, hand picked by the Lord and was an eye witness to his gospel account. If we can throw out the gospel of John as 'too spiritual' then what is stopping us from throwing out his other writings which were three epistles and the book of Revelation? I can't imagine the gospel of John being more spiritual than the book of Revelation. That's what he is saying and no one is concerned about what this man is has said. Now will he contradict himself and say he really didn't mean that or that he simply mentioned it but did not agree. If he did not agree then why bring it up? If he wasn't serious about it, then why post it?
VW's Post
And movements to experience God apart from the measure of the word of God have largely resulted in spiritual dead ends or heresy.[/quote]
The measure of the word of God. Hummm. I wonder about this. It seems to me that if a person would be hard pressed to come up with a more subjective measure than this.
Here is my contention, in plain language, and then I will let it go.
The scripture does not stand alone, like so many contend. It is held up by the power of God, which is the Spirit. It is ludicrious to think that we can take the scripture alone without the revelation of the Spirit and understand what God is saying. That is actually a lack of faith. It is believing something of the scripture which God has not said. It is taking the simple physical view of what it inheirently spiritual.
If the scripture was so easy to understand, so clear cut and absolute, there would never be any argument about what it means, and we would not need the Spirit to teach us.
If the Spirit's revelation in us and to us is so suspect, then we might as well not have it at all.
You keep saying that the problem is us, and I agree, we cannot know what the scripture says truly without the Spirit. If He were not important to us, and if He did not have such a high place among us, then Jesus would not have returned so that He could come to us. In fact, He came because there were things that we needed to hear that we could not hear in the physical, fleshly way. We could not hear them without the Spirit. I wonder where those things were written down.
God bless,
Shad's Comment
Let's quote what is highlighted in blue according to what the scriptures really say in Heb 1:3...
'Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.'
BTW ~ The reason that this man (VW) does not like the gospel of John, and would just as well have it excluded from the Bible, is because the contents of the book repudiates what he believes and has tried to teach on this thread. The book shines 'too much light' on his diluted understanding that has effected his faith and judgment and value of God's word. May I remind some of the beautiful verse that 'songster' mentioned earlier...
Ps 138:2 'I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name'.
Some of us need to stick that one in our Funk & Wagnel!
VW's Response
I cannot believe how you guys just take what is written and make it something else. I believe that the gospel of John is the most spiritual the best gospel of the 4. I was saying that some theologians want to remove it from the bible, which I find crazy. I don't like the gospel of John? Where did you get that idea?
Quote:
Originally Posted by shad
You have a man here, (VW) that started this thread, who would be alright if the gospel of John was not canonized with the rest of the scriptures because it has been pronounced by some as being 'too spiritual'. In other words the gospel of John is really not inspired by God and it would be okay if you did not acknowledge it as part of the scriptures. He is saying that you don't have to accept what the gospel of John teaches, nor what is testifies about being born again or anything it testifies concerning Christ. And John is a man that was an original apostle, hand picked by the Lord and was an eye witness to his gospel account. If we can throw out the gospel of John as 'too spiritual' then what is stopping us from throwing out his other writings which were three epistles and the book of Revelation? I can't imagine the gospel of John being more spiritual than the book of Revelation. That's what he is saying and no one is concerned about what this man is has said. Now will he contradict himself and say he really didn't mean that or that he simply mentioned it but did not agree. If he did not agree then why bring it up? If he wasn't serious about it, then why post it?
I refute everything you have said here. It is all your own misunderstanding.
So it be on your own head.
continued...
The thread title that the following posts and topic being discussed is, Idols: Has the bible become an idol? This is very important to remember as you read the posts and the content that is being communicated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VW
Anyway, I cannot in good conscience subject the Spirit to the scripture, because the scripture came from the Spirit, and the lesser always comes from the Greater. Look to the Lord Jesus, who came from God, and submitted Himself to God, because He came forth from God. If in our minds and hearts, the Spirit is subject to the scripture, then the scripture has become an idol to us.
I hate bringing this subject up, because it is so fraught with beliefs that have endured for many centuries. I do not do this because I want to. If I have offended, I ask forgiveness in His mercy.
Shad's response
The worlds (or ages of time) were framed by the word of God / Heb 11:3. Heaven and earth shall pass away but my words shall not pass away / Mt 24:35. The words I speak unto you are spirit and life / John 6:63. Man shall live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God / Mt 4:4. And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God / Eph 6:17.
John 13:16 'Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him'.
John 15:26 'But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me'.
John 14:26 'But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you'.
John 6:13-15 'Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
From these scriptures, we can see the relationship of the Spirit to Christ, to the believer and the words of Christ that we have been given by inspiration of God. There is no debate only an acceptance of truth by grace and through humility.
VW's Response
I don't see anything different in these scriptures than what I have been writing. Unless you equate the bible to Jesus. Which I most emphatically do not. Jesus is not something I can hold in my hand on a piece of paper, which it was decided by men what should be contained therein. It has even been proposed that the scripture which you quoted above been removed from the bible by theologians.
Jesus is life, to everything which has and will ever have life. If the bible has any life, which it does, it is through Jesus. That Jesus is the living word does not make the written word to be God.
Shad's Response
Would you furthur explain the highlighted portion of your post that is in blue? What scriptures are you referring to?
VW's Response
The entire gospel of John. Modern theologian hold this gospel to be too spiritual, which to them equates to esoterical. I find this amazing. If these same men had been present when the cannon was bound, we would have had a much different bible.
VW's Comments
If a person hears wrong, or is even deceived in what he takes to be from the Spirit, at least he is trying to hear from the Spirit, and the Lord is able to correct that one in love, and to right any wrong which may have been done. The argument that we must test everything received by the Spirit with the scriptures is flawed, because how do I know that I understand the scriptures correctly? I have seen the scriptures misused so many times I cannot count them. More often than I have seen them used correctly. Why? Because knowledge and reasoning do not equate love. If you want a test of your revelation from the Spirit, then this is the one test which is true in Him, love. If it is not in and because of and for love from God, then it is not of the Spirit. And even in this test, you can know the love of God? For His love, He sent His only Son to perish for us. Who would have thought?
The only reason I can see for using the scripture to test the revelation of the Spirit is control. A seeking for order in the church by making things standard. "Let's all believe the same way, just as it is written down in the book, and everything will be great." That has obviously not worked. Our unity is in His love by His Spirit.
Shad's Comments
On a follow up inquiry, if you put so much confidence in the Holy Spirit without being subject to the written word, why don't you take the written word of God that you have on paper, every word of it, and put it on the shelf. If you have the Spirit to lead you and guide you, what purpose do you possibly have for the word of God? Your inspiration would come from the Spirit and according to you that is all you need. You have said that you do not need the written word, in so many words. You could live by the Spirit without the knowledge of God and our Lord Jesus Christ according to you, isn't that right? This is probably how Abraham lived and all those before the law. Or perhaps like Adam and his wife Eve when God came to them in the cool of the day to talk with them and teach them with His words.
Does the Holy Spirit have a real purpose for the written word of God? If so, what would that be? Wouldn't it be better to speak what the Holy Spirit tells you personally, without the written word? Then everyone could say that they have heard from God and this is what He is saying and what He wants. If that happened how would we know what is from God and what might be counterfeit from Satan? Where would our faith come from if the written word is not needed? Can a man know who Christ is, what He did and have the mind of Christ without the written word? If he can, why don't you be the one who proves that? I'm sorry, you can go by the written word because that tells you to prove all things and hold fast to the good. I guess you will have to depend completely on the Spirit for that.
We get light through the entrance of God's word. There is not one verse in 32,000 that are in the Bible that mention that we get any light from the Holy Spirit. The only thing that comes close is when the Spirit convicts of sin, righteousness and judgment, but we only know that is true from the written word. If you do not have to depend on the written word and the testimony of the scriptures, how are you going to be able to prove that Christ was born of a virgin, manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world and received up into glory? If we do not count on and esteem the written word as the inspired words of truth concerning these things, what written documents are we going to rely upon as a testimony of our Lord Jesus Christ? Is the inspiration of the Holy Spirit going to be the witness and testimony of the gospel that we are to preach to all the world and every creature? There is so much more.
One last thing.
John 5:38-47
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41 I receive not honour from men.
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
Shad's Comments
You have a man here, (VW) that started this thread, who would be alright if the gospel of John was not canonized with the rest of the scriptures because it has been pronounced by some as being 'too spiritual'. In other words the gospel of John is really not inspired by God and it would be okay if you did not acknowledge it as part of the scriptures. He is saying that you don't have to accept what the gospel of John teaches, nor what is testifies about being born again or anything it testifies concerning Christ. And John is a man that was an original apostle, hand picked by the Lord and was an eye witness to his gospel account. If we can throw out the gospel of John as 'too spiritual' then what is stopping us from throwing out his other writings which were three epistles and the book of Revelation? I can't imagine the gospel of John being more spiritual than the book of Revelation. That's what he is saying and no one is concerned about what this man is has said. Now will he contradict himself and say he really didn't mean that or that he simply mentioned it but did not agree. If he did not agree then why bring it up? If he wasn't serious about it, then why post it?
VW's Post
And movements to experience God apart from the measure of the word of God have largely resulted in spiritual dead ends or heresy.[/quote]
The measure of the word of God. Hummm. I wonder about this. It seems to me that if a person would be hard pressed to come up with a more subjective measure than this.
Here is my contention, in plain language, and then I will let it go.
The scripture does not stand alone, like so many contend. It is held up by the power of God, which is the Spirit. It is ludicrious to think that we can take the scripture alone without the revelation of the Spirit and understand what God is saying. That is actually a lack of faith. It is believing something of the scripture which God has not said. It is taking the simple physical view of what it inheirently spiritual.
If the scripture was so easy to understand, so clear cut and absolute, there would never be any argument about what it means, and we would not need the Spirit to teach us.
If the Spirit's revelation in us and to us is so suspect, then we might as well not have it at all.
You keep saying that the problem is us, and I agree, we cannot know what the scripture says truly without the Spirit. If He were not important to us, and if He did not have such a high place among us, then Jesus would not have returned so that He could come to us. In fact, He came because there were things that we needed to hear that we could not hear in the physical, fleshly way. We could not hear them without the Spirit. I wonder where those things were written down.
God bless,
Shad's Comment
Let's quote what is highlighted in blue according to what the scriptures really say in Heb 1:3...
'Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.'
BTW ~ The reason that this man (VW) does not like the gospel of John, and would just as well have it excluded from the Bible, is because the contents of the book repudiates what he believes and has tried to teach on this thread. The book shines 'too much light' on his diluted understanding that has effected his faith and judgment and value of God's word. May I remind some of the beautiful verse that 'songster' mentioned earlier...
Ps 138:2 'I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name'.
Some of us need to stick that one in our Funk & Wagnel!
VW's Response
I cannot believe how you guys just take what is written and make it something else. I believe that the gospel of John is the most spiritual the best gospel of the 4. I was saying that some theologians want to remove it from the bible, which I find crazy. I don't like the gospel of John? Where did you get that idea?
Quote:
Originally Posted by shad
You have a man here, (VW) that started this thread, who would be alright if the gospel of John was not canonized with the rest of the scriptures because it has been pronounced by some as being 'too spiritual'. In other words the gospel of John is really not inspired by God and it would be okay if you did not acknowledge it as part of the scriptures. He is saying that you don't have to accept what the gospel of John teaches, nor what is testifies about being born again or anything it testifies concerning Christ. And John is a man that was an original apostle, hand picked by the Lord and was an eye witness to his gospel account. If we can throw out the gospel of John as 'too spiritual' then what is stopping us from throwing out his other writings which were three epistles and the book of Revelation? I can't imagine the gospel of John being more spiritual than the book of Revelation. That's what he is saying and no one is concerned about what this man is has said. Now will he contradict himself and say he really didn't mean that or that he simply mentioned it but did not agree. If he did not agree then why bring it up? If he wasn't serious about it, then why post it?
I refute everything you have said here. It is all your own misunderstanding.
So it be on your own head.
continued...
S
Quote:
Originally Posted by VW
The entire gospel of John. Modern theologian hold this gospel to be too spiritual, which to them equates to esoterical. I find this amazing. It these same men had been present when the cannon was bound, we would have had a much different bible.
Now, am I reversing myself? Did I say in any of the above that "I" wanted to thrown out the gospel of John? Absolutely not. You twist words as good as anyone I have ever heard from.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shad
You have a man here, (VW) that started this thread, who would be alright if the gospel of John was not canonized with the rest of the scriptures because it has been pronounced by some as being 'too spiritual'. In other words the gospel of John is really not inspired by God and it would be okay if you did not acknowledge it as part of the scriptures. He is saying that you don't have to accept what the gospel of John teaches, nor what is testifies about being born again or anything it testifies concerning Christ. And John is a man that was an original apostle, hand picked by the Lord and was an eye witness to his gospel account. If we can throw out the gospel of John as 'too spiritual' then what is stopping us from throwing out his other writings which were three epistles and the book of Revelation? I can't imagine the gospel of John being more spiritual than the book of Revelation. That's what he is saying and no one is concerned about what this man is has said. Now will he contradict himself and say he really didn't mean that or that he simply mentioned it but did not agree. If he did not agree then why bring it up? If he wasn't serious about it, then why post it?
I apologize to all here that you had to witness an attack such as this, in such a place. It is to my mind inexcusable. In light of this, I will not write any more on this subject until things change.
In His peace,
Quote:
Originally Posted by VW
I cannot believe how you guys just take what is written and make it something else. I believe that the gospel of John is the most spiritual the best gospel of the 4. I was saying that some theologians want to remove it from the bible, which I find crazy. I don't like the gospel of John? Where did you get that idea?
I apologize for this. I meant to say Shad, not you guys. He is the only one who has written in order to attack.
In His love,
Shad's Response
Don't be so offended, just explain why you brought it up in the context of the post it was mentioned. If there is a misunderstanding you should be able to clear it up, but if not then you have to live with it just like anybody else. I hope you can clear this up.
VW's Response
I was offended, but I will try this once to explain. It is not well known, but some theologians wish to remove the gospel of John from the cannon of the bible. I find this inexcusable in the extreme. I believe that some of the most important truth of Jesus in found in this part of the bible. That there is a move to have it removed proves to me that man's understanding gets in the way of the Spirit's efforts to teach us Christ Jesus. My point is that this move would never be even thought of if the Spirit was the teacher, rather than reason and systems of study. I still do not understand how you got the idea that I wanted to remove this part of the bible.
I have worn out more bibles than I can remember. Literally worn out, to the point that I will not carry them any more because I am afraid that they will fall apart on me. And still, I trust the Spirit in all things, and especially in understanding the scripture. And I will not ever place the Spirit in the place of not being able to teach me something because I make what I receive subject to what I understand. That to me would be trusting my understanding more than trusting the Spirit. And that is the whole point of my mentioning the attempt to remove John from the bible, because it is not easily understood by our reasoning, it is just too spiritual. It does not easily subject itself to systematic theology.
Originally Posted by VW
The entire gospel of John. Modern theologian hold this gospel to be too spiritual, which to them equates to esoterical. I find this amazing. It these same men had been present when the cannon was bound, we would have had a much different bible.
Now, am I reversing myself? Did I say in any of the above that "I" wanted to thrown out the gospel of John? Absolutely not. You twist words as good as anyone I have ever heard from.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shad
You have a man here, (VW) that started this thread, who would be alright if the gospel of John was not canonized with the rest of the scriptures because it has been pronounced by some as being 'too spiritual'. In other words the gospel of John is really not inspired by God and it would be okay if you did not acknowledge it as part of the scriptures. He is saying that you don't have to accept what the gospel of John teaches, nor what is testifies about being born again or anything it testifies concerning Christ. And John is a man that was an original apostle, hand picked by the Lord and was an eye witness to his gospel account. If we can throw out the gospel of John as 'too spiritual' then what is stopping us from throwing out his other writings which were three epistles and the book of Revelation? I can't imagine the gospel of John being more spiritual than the book of Revelation. That's what he is saying and no one is concerned about what this man is has said. Now will he contradict himself and say he really didn't mean that or that he simply mentioned it but did not agree. If he did not agree then why bring it up? If he wasn't serious about it, then why post it?
I apologize to all here that you had to witness an attack such as this, in such a place. It is to my mind inexcusable. In light of this, I will not write any more on this subject until things change.
In His peace,
Quote:
Originally Posted by VW
I cannot believe how you guys just take what is written and make it something else. I believe that the gospel of John is the most spiritual the best gospel of the 4. I was saying that some theologians want to remove it from the bible, which I find crazy. I don't like the gospel of John? Where did you get that idea?
I apologize for this. I meant to say Shad, not you guys. He is the only one who has written in order to attack.
In His love,
Shad's Response
Don't be so offended, just explain why you brought it up in the context of the post it was mentioned. If there is a misunderstanding you should be able to clear it up, but if not then you have to live with it just like anybody else. I hope you can clear this up.
VW's Response
I was offended, but I will try this once to explain. It is not well known, but some theologians wish to remove the gospel of John from the cannon of the bible. I find this inexcusable in the extreme. I believe that some of the most important truth of Jesus in found in this part of the bible. That there is a move to have it removed proves to me that man's understanding gets in the way of the Spirit's efforts to teach us Christ Jesus. My point is that this move would never be even thought of if the Spirit was the teacher, rather than reason and systems of study. I still do not understand how you got the idea that I wanted to remove this part of the bible.
I have worn out more bibles than I can remember. Literally worn out, to the point that I will not carry them any more because I am afraid that they will fall apart on me. And still, I trust the Spirit in all things, and especially in understanding the scripture. And I will not ever place the Spirit in the place of not being able to teach me something because I make what I receive subject to what I understand. That to me would be trusting my understanding more than trusting the Spirit. And that is the whole point of my mentioning the attempt to remove John from the bible, because it is not easily understood by our reasoning, it is just too spiritual. It does not easily subject itself to systematic theology.
A
yes, that is exactly what i am experiencing
people just think it is their duty sometimes on earth to irritate and destroy others, i haven't figured that one out yet, but GOD help me somebody will
according to the bible we do not all have the same beliefs, and because we are not all united we disagree and harm one another
it is kinda like racism or sexism
whatever you believe about the body, about the Lord, whatever your human thoughts are take over and you miss on godly thoughts, which in psalms it says how precious are to me your thoughts oh God, so God's thoughts are different than our lowly thoughts about one another, but sometimes others thoughts and faith that exist in their heart or in their head can affect you, sadly, but it does
right now i'm struggling because i live with a man who insists on making my life hell, he is not MY man, he is my mother's man, my mother's husband, he is not even my dad, and never would i want him to be, my life would be good and great if he were not here. he has treated me unkindly and unhumbly my whole life
people just think it is their duty sometimes on earth to irritate and destroy others, i haven't figured that one out yet, but GOD help me somebody will
according to the bible we do not all have the same beliefs, and because we are not all united we disagree and harm one another
it is kinda like racism or sexism
whatever you believe about the body, about the Lord, whatever your human thoughts are take over and you miss on godly thoughts, which in psalms it says how precious are to me your thoughts oh God, so God's thoughts are different than our lowly thoughts about one another, but sometimes others thoughts and faith that exist in their heart or in their head can affect you, sadly, but it does
right now i'm struggling because i live with a man who insists on making my life hell, he is not MY man, he is my mother's man, my mother's husband, he is not even my dad, and never would i want him to be, my life would be good and great if he were not here. he has treated me unkindly and unhumbly my whole life
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