What was the language spoken before Babel

just-me · Apr 11, 2015

I started a thread 2 days ago called http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/111219-lords-prayer-hebrew.html
There was more interest in language translations than discussion that could have expanded spiritual meaning to each phrase Jesus used to teach the diciples how to pray, so I thought it would be interesting to talk about the Hebrew language, where, when , and how it came to be.

So what was the one language spoken prior to the Tower of Babel?

The following is from a website "the origin of the Hebrew language"
When God created Adam he spoke to him (Genesis 2:16) indicating that God gave Adam a language and this language came from God himself, not through the evolution of grunts and groans of cave men. When we look at all the names of Adam's descendants we find that all the names from Adam to Noah and his children are Hebrew names, meaning that their name has a meaning in Hebrew. For instance, Methuselah (Genesis 5:21) is Hebrew for "his death brings" (The flood occurred the year that he died). It is not until we come to Noah's grandchildren that we find names that are of a language other than Hebrew. For instance, the name Nimrod (Genesis 11:18), who was from Babylon/Sumer/Shinar and possibly the Tower of Babel, is a non-Hebrew name. According to the Biblical record of names, Adam and his descendants spoke Hebrew.

My other question is why did Jesus speak to Paul in the Hebrew language? (Acts 26:14) What was the purpose of doing that when people spoke mostly Greek and or Aramaic during the time of Paul?

As I research, I find that most scholars say the Hebrew language is much different today than it was during the time of Paul, and also a stark difference in that language from Abraham to Paul's day. It is obvious that Paul spoke just about all dialects known during his day, so why did Jesus have to speak to Paul in Hebrew? Couldn't Paul have understood the same message from Jesus in the Aramaic or the Greek language? Maybe it was necessary for Paul to know that it truly was Jesus the true Messiah, and not just the God Saul knew. But if that were the case, Paul knew that the language came from Abraham and his descendants which makes the language Paul heard no big deal. Jesus told him who He was.

"And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest." Acts 26:15

What makes the Hebrew language so special in New Testament writings if it wasn't the language normally spoken then?

wwjd_kilden · Apr 11, 2015

you know, I asked myself this very question last night before I fell asleep

the thing with your original thread and greek vs hebrew is this though:

Even if Hebrew was the original langauge
and even though English is most widespread now
that doesn't mean that if I say something in Norwegian it will make sense to you if I first translate it to Hebrew and then back to English

Just to sidetrack: The reason I started thinking about what language it was, it that the bible never says Eve was surprised to see a talking snake. So either they didn't find that bit important, or it was natural to her. And Adam gave the animals names, so: Could they communicate with animals?

pwrnJC · Apr 11, 2015

When you say "Communicate with animals"..exactly what do you mean? Just because we choose a name for our new puppy does not mean that puppy and I converse and have audible known language between us. Besides, does that mean that a puppy in China will have a hard time understanding my American English, and visa versa? lol

wwjd_kilden · Apr 11, 2015

lol
well, I was mostly referring to the Eve talking to the snake bit. It seems odd to me there is no account of her running over to Adam "EEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeekkkkkkkkkkkkkk, a talking snake!"

pwrnJC · Apr 11, 2015

Can I share a story? I have a theory, based on years of observing and hearing private prayer tongues from all races, sexes, etc. I believe it is the pure unadulaterated language spoken pre-towel of Babel. No matter where I am at, the actual words sound the same when someone is caught up in the spirit during their prayers where the holy Spirit takes over their moanings and groanings. Perry Stone, a known evangelical minister with various prophetic gifts, etc, was at a local college that I had attended. The service had not yet begun. An elderly couple was sitting on the front role with a recording device. Perry Stone was on the stage, over to the side, praying next to the curtain. They had already switched on the recorder and it picked up his prayer, in tongues. After the service, they were listening to it and thought it was interesting that Perry had not used English. They took it to a language professor who listened and asked "Where did you get this?" He declared that what he was hearing was an ancient language no longer used in this world that he knew of, and got very excited. He could translate most of it and it was a sincere message of hope and encouragement from a Godly source.

Another reason I have this theory is that I was online in a private chat, praying with a dear minister's wife, a saintly holy spirit filled person. As we were typing, she went into prayer tongues. What occured went into hyper speed and my screen was filled with this ever flowing language that was beautiful to see and behold, although I could not understand it. The wording looked like some ancient navaho or language that was not filled with huge words. I wish that I had thought of printing it out but I was so amazed at "seeing' tongues". My friend was not aware that it was happening at all on my screen. Her speed, the agility and the sudden flow of wording had to be Supernatural. Yes, it edified her and and was a blessing to me. She did not have to translate this, because it was the Holy Spirit taking her meakly, humbled words from her heart directly to the throneroom of GOD Himself. God was showing me just another mystery, a growth moment that I will never forget.

just-me · Apr 11, 2015

pwrnJC said:

Thanks for your story, but I hope this thread is not derailed with another "tongues" controversy. It is hard to understand that a language professor listening to an ancient language no longer used in this world, that he knew of, could even begin translating it without identifying the language first. That description is contradictory to itself.

The other thing, is that there is no reason to pray without understanding because God doesn't invent prayers that only He can understand, henceforth praying to Himself and using a human as a mediator doesn't make sense either.

If there is no unbeliever present to hear tongues, which is still a gift of the Holy Spirit, there is no reason to speak in tongues.

"Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe." 1 Corinthians 14:22

"What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." 1 Corinthians 14:15

No let's go back to the question of OP

didymos · Apr 11, 2015

The oldest known language is Sumerian:

Sumerian language, language isolate and the oldest written language in existence. First attested about 3100 bc in southern Mesopotamia, it flourished during the 3rd millennium bc. About 2000 bc, Sumerian was replaced as a spoken language by Semitic Akkadian (Assyro-Babylonian) but continued in written usage almost to the end of the life of the Akkadian language, around the beginning of the Christian era...
Source: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/573229/Sumerian-language

If we identify the Habiru or Apiru with biblical hebrews, then there's no mention of them before 1800 BC:

Habiru or Apiru (Egyptian: ˁpr.w) was the name given by various Sumerian, Egyptian, Akkadian, Hittite, Mitanni, and Ugaritic sources (dated, roughly, between 1800 BC and 1100 BC) to a group of people living as nomadic invaders in areas of the Fertile Crescent from Northeastern Mesopotamia and Iran to the borders of Egypt in Canaan. Depending on the source and epoch, these Habiru are variously described as nomadic or semi-nomadic, rebels, outlaws, raiders, mercenaries, and bowmen, servants, slaves, migrant laborers, etc...
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habiru

The first record of Israel is from around 1200 BC:

The Merneptah Stele—also known as the Israel Stele or Victory Stele of Merneptah—is an inscription by the Ancient Egyptian king Merneptah (reign: 1213 to 1203 BC) discovered by Flinders Petrie in 1896 at Thebes, and now housed in the Egyptian Museum in Cairo. The text is largely an account of Merneptah's victory over the Libyans and their allies, but the last 3 of the 28 lines deal with a separate campaign in Canaan, then part of Egypt's imperial possessions.
While alternative translations have been put forward, the majority of biblical archeologists translate a set of hieroglyphs on Line 27 as "Israel", such that it represents the first documented instance of the name Israel in the historical record,and the only mention in Ancient Egypt... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merneptah_Stele

If you're really interested in the history of languages the biblical tradition alone doesn't suffice (to put it mildly).

just-me · Apr 11, 2015

The portion of the earth occupied by the descendants of Shem, begins at its northwestern extremity with Lydia, and includes Syria (Aram), Chaldaea (Arphaxad), parts Of Assyria (Asshur), of Persia (Elam), and of the Arabian peninsula (Joktan). Modern scholars have given the name of Shemitic or Semitic to the languages spoken by his real or supposed descendants. [HEBREW LANGUAGE]

The languages of some of these nations are still called the Shemitic languages, including the Hebrew, Chalee, Syriac, Arabic, Ethiopic, etc.; but in this general class are found several languages spoken by nations descended from Ham.

Tintin · Apr 11, 2015

Yes, but while the Sumerian language would be one of the earliest languages post-Babel, I seriously doubt it was the original language before the tower dispersal. I don't know what to think. I can see the attractive simplicity of ancient Hebrew being the first language, but we can't say for sure. It's quite possible the names we are given in the early books of Genesis are the Hebrew translations of the original names. For example, it doesn't seem (from historical records etc.) that there ever was a man called Nimrod, but there are certainly several possible candidates for him. And it's very likely that Gilgamesh was a mythical take on the man, Nimrod.

The Bible sometimes includes different names, not found in history, to humble human pride or to make fun of pagan gods/goddesses. It happens. Creation Ministries International though, have concluded that there didn't have to be any more than 12 language groups, immediately post-Babel, to account for all of the languages we have today. Fascinating!

Angela53510 · Apr 11, 2015

If you actually studied Hebrew, you would find that there are silent letters. They hold a place, but they make no sound. Why have two silent letters (Aleph and Ayin)?

Then there are two "T" sounds - tet and tav. There are two "S" sounds - samek and sin.

So why would the "original" language have multiple sounds, and be missing other sounds which appear in other alphabets? Likely because etymologically speaking, it is a derivative language. Meaning it is a combination of several earlier languages. That is what I was told by a Messianic rabbi when I first started studying Hebrew with him. And it makes sense to me as a student of languages (I also speak 4 modern languages!)

My thought is that if God confused all the languages at Babel, that means ALL the languages changed. Abram came from Ur of the Chaldees, in Mesopotamia. He likely spoke some kind of Sumerian dialect, which probably morphed over generations into Hebrew.

Languages change rapidly, even when people can read and write. Which most did not in ancient times. Only witness the controversy of the KJV which some like myself reject as the perfect Bible, because so many of the words have changed in only 400 years. If you go back a 1000 years in English, it is likely you could not communicate with anyone in the area called England today, because the language is so different.

So forget your ideas that Hebrew is the perfect language, or God's language. God speaks to each of us in our own heart language. That is why the Bible has been translated into more languages than any other book in the world! Hebrew is a great language to study the Old Testament in. Greek for the New Testament. If you are attracted to Hebrew, why not study it seriously? I know you will benefit greatly when you study the Old Testament in Hebrew!

Tintin · Apr 11, 2015

Great stuff, Angela! You make some very good points. What do you make of these papers concerning the ancient Hebrew language, the tower of Babel and the names of Noah's grandsons? It all strikes me as interesting, but I think it's rather speculative and probably not true. I mean, I'm well aware that are well-meaning, but strange beliefs out there, even amongst some biblical creationists.

http://www.w-rocs.org/stones/Magog_and_Javan_Descendants.pdf

http://www.w-rocs.org/stones/Genesis_10_Names_Describe_Volcanic_Activity.pdf

atwhatcost · Apr 11, 2015

just-me said:

As best I understand it, pre-Babel language was "the original language." We don't know what it was because no documents made it past the great flood to find out.

In like kind, Moses had no problems speaking to Egyptians or Israelites, because their language was so similar at the time, it was something like the difference between middle-class Londoners and middle-class Texans. The same kind of thing was going on when the Israelites took over the Promise Land. The languages were close enough that it was just a matter of picking apart a dialect to translate it into your dialect. (And, I really do, sometimes, feel like I have to translate British into American sometimes, so it isn't always easy, but it is supposed to be the same language. lol)

As for Jesus and Paul, well, you seem to get why Jesus could speak any language. Paul was both a Pharisee and a citizen of Rome. Before he went around the country to kill Christians (he didn't get far, but he was trying), he was a tent-maker in Tarsus. Tent-makers back then also made sails. That's a merchant, so, of course he had to be able to talk to his customers. Tarsus was actually a seaport back then, (can't tell now, because it's not), so he picked up a few languages to keep in business. Plus he was a Pharisee. They were really big into understanding every jot and tittle in the scared scrolls, so very, very educated.

Tarsus was part of Greece back then, (turning to part of Rome right around the time of Paul), so that explains the Aramaic, Greek and Latin he knew.

As for why Jesus spoke Greek to Paul? Have you ever been around two bilingual people who both know another language besides English? I keep thinking they should speak English, so I can understand too, but they rarely go with English. I'm not sure why.

atwhatcost · Apr 11, 2015

wwjd_kilden said:

Technically, not a snake. A serpent. (It had limbs, or it wouldn't have been a big deal to crawl on its belly as a punishment. Kind of like saying I'm being punished when God gives me hands and fingers. Already have them, so not much of a punishment to give me what I already have and I'm used to. lol)

To make things more complicated, not necessarily a serpent either. It's one of those rare words that's hard to pinpoint exactly what it means, because it's not used enough in context to decipher it. In its root though is something connected to magic, sorcery, and/or demon.

We really don't know enough to say what it means exactly, but it could be a serpent.

Also, you might have something there. It is possible all animals spoke back then. The Bible seems to make it no big deal that an animal talked at that point. Things were definitely different in the Garden. Then again, another of those IDKs.

Jeff_56 · Apr 11, 2015

keep seeking. the answer is so simple, and totally in line with all of TORAH and SCRIPTURE. and doesn't require
twisting truth into convoluted explanations.

think about what yahweh says the enemy appears as later in Scripture.

and forget what men say about what Scripture says that requires bending over backwards.

the truth is simple. men just don't like it.

GodIsSalvation · Apr 11, 2015

Is an interesting Bible topic. I have wondered this too, I don't think we can ever know the full unadulterated First Language of Man, but at the same time you can see hints of what it was close to.

It is curious how some of the simplest words have the same sort of sounds. Take for instance the word father in so many languages have either -pa -ba -da sounds. Or mother has a -ma -na sounds. There's many similarities, but also many differences of languages.

EDIT: and also one can see how both the similarities implying the existence of the so-called proto-language and the differences which outright prove the division of it as written in the Bible are solid.

Tintin · Apr 12, 2015

atwhatcost said:

But the tower of Babel dispersal happened up to 150 years after the Great Flood, not beforehand. Still, a lot has happened in Shinar since then.

MarcR · Apr 12, 2015

Angela53510 said:

I basically agree with what you have written; but I have a few thoughts to share and questions to raise not in opposition but to give due consideration to ideas you may not have considered.

1) You are certainly correct that the Hebrew alphabet shows evidence of one or more modifying influences; but I question whether that, in itself, is a fair indication of the age of the language?

English has both a soft 'c' and an 's' ; a 'dg' and a 'j'; an 'x' and a 'ks'; but the language is much older than the assimilated letters.

2) Those linguists who consider Sumerian to the most ancient language argue with those who consider Sanskrit to hold this honor; while neither of these linguistic schools of thought approach their inquiries from a Scriptural perspective.

We see here that the names of the 22 letters of the Phoenician alphabet are identical with the Hebrew alphabet; but in form show more affinity with the Greek and considerable similarity to the 'Paleo' Hebrew.

If we substitute Scriptural biases and assumptions for those adopted by the linguists; one could make a strong case for Hebrew as the parent language at least in this group.

Angela53510 · Apr 12, 2015

MarcR said:

Regarding overlapping sounds in English, that is precisely my point! English is extremely derivative. Thirty percent is Germanic based, thirty percent French or Romance based, the rest from other languages. The Normans conquering England in 1066 brought a whole new set of words, which were more common to the upper class. It's why the word "steak" comes from the French word, because the nobles ate the steak. But they never dealt with the animal it came from, that was done by the now conquered lower class Anglo Saxons who raised the cows. Studying both Frenxh and German, it is fascinating to see the cognate words for English words.

Regarding proto-Hebrew I confess I really don't know enough about the early languages to know the differences. It is an interesting chart. But I do believe Hebrew shows a western influence, seeing as there are letter orders in some places of the alphabet which are similar to Greek, and ultimately to our alphabet. As for which language came first, Greek or Hebrew I don't know if that is known.

wincam · Apr 12, 2015

Angela53510 said:

Regarding overlapping sounds in English, that is precisely my point! English is extremely derivative. Thirty percent is Germanic based, thirty percent French or Romance based, the rest from other languages. The Normans conquering England in 1066 brought a whole new set of words, which were more common to the upper class. It's why the word "steak" comes from the French word, because the nobles ate the steak. But they never dealt with the animal it came from, that was done by the now conquered lower class Anglo Saxons who raised the cows. Studying both Frenxh and German, it is fascinating to see the cognate words for English words.

Regarding proto-Hebrew I confess I really don't know enough about the early languages to know the differences. It is an interesting chart. But I do believe Hebrew shows a western influence, seeing as there are letter orders in some places of the alphabet which are similar to Greek, and ultimately to our alphabet. As for which language came first, Greek or Hebrew I don't know if that is known.

what has so far been discussed is written language, but before that there must have been oral only and before that telepathic - wincam

breno785au · Apr 12, 2015

Tintin said:

This is real interesting stuff. I don't know jack about original Hebrew so I hope it's accurate and what not, would like to know Angela's opinion as I've seen she's quite learned on that stuff

Thanks for posting that.

What was the language spoken before Babel

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