The law of Moses

ivanc0 · Apr 13, 2015

Deuteronomy 21 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the Lord thy God hath delivered them into thine hands and thou hast taken them captive,
[SUP]11 [/SUP]and seest among the captives a beautiful woman and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her for thy wife,
[SUP]12 [/SUP]then thou shalt bring her home to thine house. And she shall shave her head and pare her nails;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]and she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house and bewail her father and her mother a full month. And after that thou shalt go in unto her and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will, but thou shalt not sell her at all for money; thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.

What is this????

You Kidnap the poor virgen, you with compasion make her cry for family, then you rape her, and force to be your wife, but if you have no enough pleasure on her, let her go.... it is just ok.... I think I read some thing similar in a Muslim book

(Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.

What????
A man could sell his daughter? and He has to please the men? cook well? or please the men in the bed?
but a man can not sell the poor girl to aliens just to Israelites, is this a sex slave Moses law?

WheresEnoch · Apr 13, 2015

These are good issues you have with God as He is portrayed in the Bible.
Study, seek, pray and think until you reconcile them and you will have gained a lot of wisdom that many people do not possess.

Yes, these are the words of Christ.

John 8
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

WheresEnoch · Apr 13, 2015

Sorry, didn't mean to sound condescending, if I did. But I've also had these questions and the answers to them require various things. Some knowledge, some wisdom and some thought/perspective. One thing we can know for sure, a promise. If we will seek we will find.

atwhatcost · Apr 13, 2015

Honestly, I think as you do often. I remember the story of Jacob and Leah. Jacob struck a deal with Laban. "I'll work for you for seven years to gain the hand of your daughter Rachel."

Seven years later, Laban pulls a bait and switch, and Jacob wakes up after his wedding night only to discover he's married to Leah. He was kind to her. Didn't seem like she was raped. They ended up with more children than Rachel did. And another seven years for Rachel.

From all I get out of the Law, yes, men got to pick the women in a variety of ways (raping could also land a guy with a new life, if the girl and her family were willing.) But, since there's a bunch of laws about not hurting the woman (to the point of losing their babies or their lives) there seems to be some restraint and honor in how they approached the woman. In the case you brought up, the man isn't necessarily leaving her all alone to cry for her parents, he's treating her like a guest in his house. She knows where it's going, so she has a month to prepare herself for the inevitable. Maybe not thrilled at the marriage, but by that time it's also not likely rape anymore. More resignation with the hope she can grow to love the guy.

Not something good to do in today's society, but that wasn't today's society. And, I'm so glad I didn't live back then.

crossnote · Apr 13, 2015

ivanc0 said:

Here is a quote from the MacArthur Study Bible via Olivetree. You can easily find answers to this and your other example by doing a little research.

Deu 21:11 Deut. 21:11–14 a beautiful woman. According to ancient war customs, a female captive became the servant of the victors. Moses was given instruction to deal in a kind way with such issues. In the event her conquerors were captivated by her beauty and contemplated marriage with her, one month was required to elapse, during which her troubled feelings might settle, her mind would be reconciled to the new conditions of conquest, and she could sorrow over the loss of her parents as she left home to marry a stranger. One month was the usual mourning period for Jews, and the features of this period, e. g., shaving the head, trimming the nails, and removing her lovely clothes (ladies on the eve of captivity dressed to be attractive to their captors), were typical signs of Jewish grief. This action was important to show kindness to the woman and to test the strength of the man's affection. After the 30 days, they could marry. If later he decided divorce was appropriate (based on the provisions of 24:1–4), he could not sell her as a slave. She was to be set completely free because "you have humiliated her." This phrase clearly refers to sexual activity, in which the wife has fully submitted herself to her husband (cf. 22:23–29). It should be noted that divorce appears to have been common among the people, perhaps learned from their time in Egypt, and tolerated by Moses because of their "hardness of heart" (see notes on Deut. 24:1–4; Matt. 19:8).

JesusIsAll · Apr 14, 2015

Way off base there! These were ancient times when women were raped, gang raped, enslaved, or used and skewered, mutilated if a soldier wished, for fun, ugly times I'd not repeat here what went on, but horror of horrors commonplace, no regard for life. The woman in question was married, not raped, not raped then murdered, and only after a period of mourning the war, which would include the Israelite man thinking about it more during this time, of a woman with her head shaved, not as much the same object of beauty. Could very well be the woman's supporting family was killed, and she had nowhere to go. And if things don't work out, which could as well be for her not accepting something about the man or his faith, whatever, she was released with dignity. By ancient and even not so ancient Mongol hoard standards of conduct, this is actually a very civilized plan, with strict rules to protect the vanquished. I neither see a man going to all this trouble, remembering he has a community standard and standing to keep up of a community of law and faith, nobody wants a failed marriage, and engaging in such a marriage plan for the likes of something he could get from a prostitute highly unlikely his motivation, in the first place. Your criticism is oblivious that these are actually civilized rules in a lawless, raping, slaving and butchering world, where the commonplace alternative is mayhem and every form of cruelty, no humane standards. It's actually far superior to captured young girls made sex slaves of Muslims, for raping out of wedlock, in 2015! It's not lost on me you're a God and/or Bible hater, but you've really got nothing there.

ivanc0 · Apr 14, 2015

Thanks for your answers,
I did not want to quote all of you but please note this are not Moses law,
this is chapter 21 just after the 10 commandments.
and chapter 21 starts like:

Exodus 21 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

21 “Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them:

it's Gods himself given this laws to Moses.

Please note.
-The woman is an war enemy (not a loving bride)
-The woman is carried against her will
-Its married with compulsion, Is a fake legal rape.
-The woman is now not virgen, (huge disadvantage on those days)

What compassion? you all make it look so romantic, I want you to think your daugther is in Irak, and fell the the worriers of Islam, they will send her to a house, and prepare for her forceful marriage and rape.....
Now how you feel?

Please note I do not think God gave this Laws to Moses, but the writers attributed his own uses and culture to God. My point is the old testament can not be taken literally.

GandalfTheWhite · Apr 14, 2015

When we look at scriptures like these we have to understand the moral issues of the time. Three things to consider:

1) If you raped a married woman you were killed.

2) The virgin's father still had to give his blessing on the marriage.

3) It was difficult for a lady to get married if she was not a virgin. This woman most likely was treated like an unwanted object so if she had a desire to be married and to have children she had the option to get married to the guy. The problem the guy faced was that he could never leave this woman no matter what. In those days men had the power but when a man raped a woman there was a power shift to her and the roles was basically reversed.

ivanc0 · Apr 14, 2015

GandalfTheWhite said:

Thanks, your comments are close, but not to accurate.
in case of war 2 is not relevant. in case you sold the girl it was sold as a slave not as a wife. but if you give it to your son as a wife is not slave anymore.

3 makes life of the forced of war wife even more difficult.

In general a woman value on those days had much less value of a man.

wincam · Apr 14, 2015

ivanc0 said:

no matter what, two or more wrongs by developing semi barbarians and infidels in those olden days, do not make it right by semi barbarians and infidels in our modern semi civilised Christian era - wincam

WheresEnoch · Apr 14, 2015

I will get into this a bit.

As people have said, these were harsher times. There were no police, no financial institutions, pagan religions which demanded child sacrifice ruled the land. Those who were wicked, were very wicked and left unchecked apart from the judgement of God. The Holy Spirit did not abide in man.

Now when a judge determines that a criminal should be executed for his crimes, it is called justice.
Yet often when people read the OT they misconstrue God to be the criminal for using Israel, a disaster or whatever device He chooses to use to execute His judgement on the wicked.

God is just and His judgements are true. He not only knows what crimes people are guilty of and the intents of their hearts but also what crimes they would commit and what the effect of leaving them unchecked would be in the future. So even when we do not understand His judgements, we can be assured that He has a much better grasp on the situation than us.

Servitude was a way of life, as I mentioned, there was no bankruptcy, no EBT/food stamps, no global economy on which to rely or get rich. People did the best they could yet anything could happen. Being the victim of thieves, murderers and worse. Drought, famine, bad investments, sickness etc. So yes, people did offer themselves and their children into servitude to those who were well off as a means of survival.

If a family was barely surviving, on the verge of dying even, then sometimes selling your child as a servant was the only means of keeping them safe and provided for. This may not be understandable to many in our day, but you may think differently if you were placed in their shoes. Without a governing authority over all the land, it was survival of the fittest and the strongest made their own rules. Single women did not roam the land doing as they pleased, they needed to be protected. Venturing too far from that protection could easily be a huge mistake which would lead to horrible things at the hand of the godless. A father would desire his daughters to be well cared for, because he loves them. He would desire that they find husbands who are well off, intelligent, strong etc for his own daughters safety and well being. When a father found such a place, he would decide their future for them to the best of his ability.

It was not like today.

Servitude was also a means to avoid being slaughtered when war and bloodshed occurred. We can be sure that servitude in the nation of Israel was almost always preferable to servitude by the godless. But I'm sure there are exceptions. God gave rules to regulate servitude and to ensure that people were not treated cruelly and that if they were, their master would be held accountable.

When it comes to Deuteronomy 21, I will share a bit which may help get you on the right track.

God delivers His judgement on a people. He tells the Israelites to wage war on the offenders. He says some can be spared.
Then God tells them that if they see among the captives a woman which stirs their hearts, they can and must marry her versus just using her and abusing her as a slave, they were told to marry her, ensuring the best possible outcome for her in this situation. If He did not tell them that they had to marry her, then much worse would occur. But first they must bring her into their house and allow her to mourn her loss. Then they can become married, treated fairly and with respect (maybe not "equal rights" like today but that was how it was back then). Not as a slave.

Then, it gives a way out if things do not work out. Whether it is because of the man or the woman does not want to stay (if she doesn't want to stay she will make the man miserable and resist him in all ways). It says that if the Israelite ever ceases to love and delight in her, he must let her go where she chooses. It then commands that he cannot sell her or treat her as a slave.

So maybe that will help you to start understanding things. I would encourage you to think for yourself on these issues, think through the scenarios from the perspectives of the people and of God and learn about the cultural context. Think about the alternatives and see things from the viewpoints of those involved. Yes, it may still be hard to understand for us in our day, but the more you consider the realities and weigh each of the commands involved you will begin to see the wisdom of God in these things.

WheresEnoch · Apr 14, 2015

I think it is a mistake to think that we are somehow enlightened in our day and age. Like we are beyond these things. Yes, God has created large civilizations to spread justice and accountability among the godless. but if our societies ever collapsed, we would revert back to these ways as sinful godless man will always be sinful godless man

ivanc0 · Apr 14, 2015

WheresEnoch said:

God have two chances to have a good society Adam and Noa. it did not work, the old you go the close the society should be to God. but the reverse happens.
The people of Israel, they saw the miracle of red sea, but still turn to idolatry.
and use that people inclined to sin to punish the other people that were more sinners.
You need to undestand the old testament is the cosmology, the legends of the people of Israel, they created God at the Image of their time and culture.
God exists and corrected this issues by sending Jesus and showing is a God of Love and Peace.
But people insist in the dogma of the old testament. is clearly just a bunch of legends.

WheresEnoch · Apr 14, 2015

ivanc0 said:

The Old Testament is the Word of God as much as the New. It is not exaggerated or perverted by men or "legends".

Jesus did not contradict any of the Old Testament, it is what He lived and taught. He did not "correct" the Old Testament but affirmed and confirmed it in everything He did.

Among other things, how can you count all the fulfilled prophecies and God's plan for man carried out and the wisdom of God littered throughout the Old Testament and come to the conclusion it was not of God? I encourage you to study it with a mind open to receiving insight from God, because I feel like you have not really studied it in depth or have studied it with the wrong heart. The things you are saying are things that I hear from godless teachers of religion. People who twist what God has said to either mock or diminish Him in favor of their own "God" who is loving of sin and doesn't care what you specifically believe. Sometimes these teachers prefer to call their God "Jesus", sometimes they say you can call God whatever you want.. Buddha, Allah, Jesus etc.

Their idea of a loving God is one who would never judge or punish anyone for their evil. Their idea of loving God is to enjoy their life in any and every way their flesh desires. I've heard this phrase used many times, God is "pure agape love". "The Old Testament was not God" they say, much like you are saying now.

I will agree that the Israelites got to physically see the hand of God in the world and still turned away from Him it's pretty sad, but then you look at the world today, many who bear His name aren't doing any better

ivanc0 · Apr 14, 2015

WheresEnoch said:

God have two changes to have a good society Adam and Noa.
Then have the people of Israel, they saw the miracle of red sea, but still turn to idolatry.
and use that people inclined to sin to punish the other people that were more sinners.
You need to undestand the old testament is the cosmology, the legends of the people of Israel, they created God at the Image of their time and culture.
God exists and corrected this issues by sending Jesus and showing is a God of Love and Peace.
But people insist in the dogma of the old testament. is clearly just a bunch of legends.

ivanc0 · Apr 15, 2015

WheresEnoch said:

I will get into this a bit.

As people have said, these were harsher times. There were no police, no financial institutions, pagan religions which demanded child sacrifice ruled the land. Those who were wicked, were very wicked and left unchecked apart from the judgement of God. The Holy Spirit did not abide in man.

Now when a judge determines that a criminal should be executed for his crimes, it is called justice.
Yet often when people read the OT they misconstrue God to be the criminal for using Israel, a disaster or whatever device He chooses to use to execute His judgement on the wicked.

God is just and His judgements are true. He not only knows what crimes people are guilty of and the intents of their hearts but also what crimes they would commit and what the effect of leaving them unchecked would be in the future. So even when we do not understand His judgements, we can be assured that He has a much better grasp on the situation than us.

Servitude was a way of life, as I mentioned, there was no bankruptcy, no EBT/food stamps, no global economy on which to rely or get rich. People did the best they could yet anything could happen. Being the victim of thieves, murderers and worse. Drought, famine, bad investments, sickness etc. So yes, people did offer themselves and their children into servitude to those who were well off as a means of survival.

If a family was barely surviving, on the verge of dying even, then sometimes selling your child as a servant was the only means of keeping them safe and provided for. This may not be understandable to many in our day, but you may think differently if you were placed in their shoes. Without a governing authority over all the land, it was survival of the fittest and the strongest made their own rules. Single women did not roam the land doing as they pleased, they needed to be protected. Venturing too far from that protection could easily be a huge mistake which would lead to horrible things at the hand of the godless. A father would desire his daughters to be well cared for, because he loves them. He would desire that they find husbands who are well off, intelligent, strong etc for his own daughters safety and well being. When a father found such a place, he would decide their future for them to the best of his ability.

It was not like today.

Servitude was also a means to avoid being slaughtered when war and bloodshed occurred. We can be sure that servitude in the nation of Israel was almost always preferable to servitude by the godless. But I'm sure there are exceptions. God gave rules to regulate servitude and to ensure that people were not treated cruelly and that if they were, their master would be held accountable.

When it comes to Deuteronomy 21, I will share a bit which may help get you on the right track.

God delivers His judgement on a people. He tells the Israelites to wage war on the offenders. He says some can be spared.
Then God tells them that if they see among the captives a woman which stirs their hearts, they can and must marry her versus just using her and abusing her as a slave, they were told to marry her, ensuring the best possible outcome for her in this situation. If He did not tell them that they had to marry her, then much worse would occur. But first they must bring her into their house and allow her to mourn her loss. Then they can become married, treated fairly and with respect (maybe not "equal rights" like today but that was how it was back then). Not as a slave.

Then, it gives a way out if things do not work out. Whether it is because of the man or the woman does not want to stay (if she doesn't want to stay she will make the man miserable and resist him in all ways). It says that if the Israelite ever ceases to love and delight in her, he must let her go where she chooses. It then commands that he cannot sell her or treat her as a slave.

So maybe that will help you to start understanding things. I would encourage you to think for yourself on these issues, think through the scenarios from the perspectives of the people and of God and learn about the cultural context. Think about the alternatives and see things from the viewpoints of those involved. Yes, it may still be hard to understand for us in our day, but the more you consider the realities and weigh each of the commands involved you will begin to see the wisdom of God in these things.

You give a good and well structured analysis, but then you lower God to the issues of that culture and weakness of the time, in other words, you just saying the same thing as i said but in a different way.

Thanks for your patience.

wincam · Apr 15, 2015

ivanc0 said:

it was to avoid contagion or further and future loss of life - would be like spreading aids or ebola with no known cure - remember also what we did at Dresden and Hiroshima - wincam

GracethroughfaithinChrist · Apr 15, 2015

Perhaps you are applying your own private interpretation of the scriptures mixed with carnal reasonings, and a very shallow understanding of both the history of man and of who God is and His plan for our salvation.......causing you to error greatly. Ignorance of the scriptures and lack of knowledge has allowed the enemy of all souls to distort your view and cause you to blame God and see error where there is perfection.

We have a choice to trust God and He will cleanse us of all iniquity through belief in and faith in His only begotten Son Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice for our sins....... trusting in Him to save you will bring clarity and understanding to what is written and into knowledge of all things that pertain to our salvation.

John 3:16-21
16“For God so loved the world,[SUP]i[/SUP] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

James 1:5-8
5If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him. 6But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. 7For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

zoii · Apr 15, 2015

ivanc0 said:

Deuteronomy 21 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the Lord thy God hath delivered them into thine hands and thou hast taken them captive,
[SUP]11 [/SUP]and seest among the captives a beautiful woman and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her for thy wife,
[SUP]12 [/SUP]then thou shalt bring her home to thine house. And she shall shave her head and pare her nails;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]and she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house and bewail her father and her mother a full month. And after that thou shalt go in unto her and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will, but thou shalt not sell her at all for money; thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.

What is this????

You Kidnap the poor virgen, you with compasion make her cry for family, then you rape her, and force to be your wife, but if you have no enough pleasure on her, let her go.... it is just ok.... I think I read some thing similar in a Muslim book

(Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.

What????
A man could sell his daughter? and He has to please the men? cook well? or please the men in the bed?
but a man can not sell the poor girl to aliens just to Israelites, is this a sex slave Moses law?

I know these things in the bible gross me out n I just cant see how they fit

ivanc0 · Apr 15, 2015

GracethroughfaithinChrist said:

Perhaps you are applying your own private interpretation of the scriptures mixed with carnal reasonings, and a very shallow understanding of both the history of man and of who God is and His plan for our salvation.......causing you to error greatly. Ignorance of the scriptures and lack of knowledge has allowed the enemy of all souls to distort your view and cause you to blame God and see error where there is perfection.

We have a choice to trust God and He will cleanse us of all iniquity through belief in and faith in His only begotten Son Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice for our sins....... trusting in Him to save you will bring clarity and understanding to what is written and into knowledge of all things that pertain to our salvation.

John 3:16-21
16“For God so loved the world,[SUP]i[/SUP] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

James 1:5-8
5If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him. 6But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. 7For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

Yes, I am looking at exodus 21 as privately and carnal as I have a daughter and I will not consider to sell her as a slave.

Do not attack me I did not wrote exodus 21, you address the issues in this verse and stop going round and round trying to deviate .

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