Saved By Laver of Regeneration and Cleansed By A Laver of Water

[SeaBass]

The Greek word "loutron" appears twice in the NT.


"bathing, bath, that act of bathing" James Strong, The Exaustive Concordance of the Bible.


Eph 5:26 "That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the laver of water by the word,"

Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the laver of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"


The above are two "born again" verses along with Jn 3:5, 1 Cor 12:13 etc.

Jn 3:5-------------Spirit++++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor12:13-------Spirit++++++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5---------Holy Spirit++++++++++laver of regeneration>>>>>>>>saved
Eph5:26--------the word++++++++++++++laver of water>>>>>>>>>>>>>>cleasned


In both Eph 5:26 and Titus 3:5 Paul is saying God saves us in a bath, a laver of water where regeneration/new birth takes place.


Coffman Comemntary:
The use of the term laver is very fortunate, because the primary meaning of it, in context, is the baptistery, standing in a figure (metonymy) for baptism, for which alone a baptistery is used, and adequately translated as "washing." But please note the significance of this. It is a thundering, emphatic denial of the nonsense that "The washing referred to is wholly spiritual."[13] Is a baptistery needed for that?

But isn't baptism only a symbol? This has been shouted so loudly and so frequently and for so long that many believe it; but it is untrue. Lenski sets the matter straight. Commenting on the affirmation that "Man submits to baptism after the new birth to picture it forth to men," he has this:

Paul excludes this idea in a double way. "God saves us by means of the bath, etc. - this is the bath of regeneration. How can anyone think Paul would say, "God saved us by means of a picture of regeneration? Compare Jesus' own words in John 3:5.[16]​

[(13) William Hendrickson, NT Commentary, Titus.]
[(16) RCH Lenski


From here on as time permits, I will be quoting from various commentaries (even from those that deny the bible's teachings on the necessity of water baptism) on what "laver of water" of Eph 5:26 and "laver of regeneration" of Titus 3:5 means.



A.T. Robertson:

loutron see note on Ephesians 5:26, here as there the laver or the bath. Probably in both cases there is a reference to baptism, but, as in Romans 6:3-6, the immersion is the picture or the symbol of the new birth, not the means of securing it.

Robertson admits both EPh 5:26 and Titus 3:5 references baptism, immersion. But to avoid the necessity of water baptism Robertson then alludes to Rom 6:3-6 claiming this passage shows baptism is a picture/symbol of the new birth not how the new birth is secured.

1) nowhere in Rom 6 does Paul say baptism is just a symbol of the new birth and nothing more.
2) In Tts 3:5 Paul says God "saved us". How? By water baptism (Robertson admits) and renewing of the Holy Ghost. Paul clearly points out the securing of salvation in the new birth (paliggenesia), in a laver of regeneration.

 

[SeaBass]

Wesley's Explanatory Notes:
Eph 5:26: "By the washing of water - In baptism"

Tts 3:5 " expressed by the laver of regeneration, (that is, baptism, the thing signified, as well as the outward sign,) "



Vincent's Word Studies:
Eph 5:26 "washing is properly laver. Note the article, the laver, as something well known. There is no satisfactory evidence for the meaning washing. The allusion is to baptism."

Tts 3:5 "Λουτρόν only here and Ephesians 5:26. It does not mean the act of bathing, but the bath, the laver. Παλινγενεσία only here and Matthew 19:28, where it is used of the final restoration of all things. The phrase laver of regeneration distinctly refers to baptism, in connection with which and through which as a medium regeneration is conceived as taking place. Comp. Romans 6:3-5. It is true that nothing is said of faith; but baptism implies faith on the part of its recipient. It has no regenerating effect apart from faith; and the renewing of the Holy Spirit is not bestowed if faith be wanting."


Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible:
(Jamieson, Fausset and Brown)
Eph 5:26 "with the washing of water — rather as Greek, “with,” or “by the laver of the water,” namely, the baptismal water."

Tts 3:5 "the washing — rather, “the laver,” that is, the baptismal font."

 

[crossnote]

Water is nowhere in the context of Rom 6.
Rather the baptism spoken in Rom 6 is speaking of our identification into Christ's death and resurrection in relation to sin.

God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
(Rom 6:2-6)


Rom 7 goes on in the same vein but with the relation to the Law...

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
(Rom 7:4)

 

[wattie]

John 3: Born of water and the Spirit...

Water-- water of the WOMB...

that is the context of this passage. Nicodemus brings up the context of having been going back into his mother's womb to be born again.. not water of baptism!

So a person is born physically.. then later is born again by the Holy Spirit.. not involving water baptism.

 

[posthuman]

cleansed by water flowing out of the temple:


Ezekiel 47
English Standard Version (ESV)

47 Then he brought me back to the door of the temple, and behold, water was issuing from below the threshold of the temple toward the east (for the temple faced east). The water was flowing down from below the south end of the threshold of the temple, south of the altar.
2 Then he brought me out by way of the north gate and led me around on the outside to the outer gate that faces toward the east; and behold, the water was trickling out on the south side.
3 Going on eastward with a measuring line in his hand, the man measured a thousand cubits, and then led me through the water, and it was ankle-deep.
4 Again he measured a thousand, and led me through the water, and it was knee-deep. Again he measured a thousand, and led me through the water, and it was waist-deep.
5 Again he measured a thousand, and it was a river that I could not pass through, for the water had risen. It was deep enough to swim in, a river that could not be passed through.
6 And he said to me, “Son of man, have you seen this?” Then he led me back to the bank of the river.
7 As I went back, I saw on the bank of the river very many trees on the one side and on the other.
8 And he said to me, “This water flows toward the eastern region and goes down into the Arabah, and enters the sea; when the water flows into the sea, the water will become fresh.
9 And wherever the river goes, every living creature that swarms will live, and there will be very many fish. For this water goes there, that the waters of the sea may become fresh; so everything will live where the river goes.
10 Fishermen will stand beside the sea. From Engedi to Eneglaim it will be a place for the spreading of nets. Its fish will be of very many kinds, like the fish of the Great Sea.
11 But its swamps and marshes will not become fresh; they are to be left for salt.
12 And on the banks, on both sides of the river, there will grow all kinds of trees for food. Their leaves will not wither, nor their fruit fail, but they will bear fresh fruit every month, because the water for them flows from the sanctuary. Their fruit will be for food, and their leaves for healing.”​

 

[Least]

cleansed by water flowing out of the temple:


Ezekiel 47
English Standard Version (ESV)

47 Then he brought me back to the door of the temple, and behold, water was issuing from below the threshold of the temple toward the east (for the temple faced east). The water was flowing down from below the south end of the threshold of the temple, south of the altar.
2 Then he brought me out by way of the north gate and led me around on the outside to the outer gate that faces toward the east; and behold, the water was trickling out on the south side.
3 Going on eastward with a measuring line in his hand, the man measured a thousand cubits, and then led me through the water, and it was ankle-deep.
4 Again he measured a thousand, and led me through the water, and it was knee-deep. Again he measured a thousand, and led me through the water, and it was waist-deep.
5 Again he measured a thousand, and it was a river that I could not pass through, for the water had risen. It was deep enough to swim in, a river that could not be passed through.
6 And he said to me, “Son of man, have you seen this?” Then he led me back to the bank of the river.
7 As I went back, I saw on the bank of the river very many trees on the one side and on the other.
8 And he said to me, “This water flows toward the eastern region and goes down into the Arabah, and enters the sea; when the water flows into the sea, the water will become fresh.
9 And wherever the river goes, every living creature that swarms will live, and there will be very many fish. For this water goes there, that the waters of the sea may become fresh; so everything will live where the river goes.
10 Fishermen will stand beside the sea. From Engedi to Eneglaim it will be a place for the spreading of nets. Its fish will be of very many kinds, like the fish of the Great Sea.
11 But its swamps and marshes will not become fresh; they are to be left for salt.
12 And on the banks, on both sides of the river, there will grow all kinds of trees for food. Their leaves will not wither, nor their fruit fail, but they will bear fresh fruit every month, because the water for them flows from the sanctuary. Their fruit will be for food, and their leaves for healing.”​

Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

 

[SeaBass]

Water is nowhere in the context of Rom 6.
Rather the baptism spoken in Rom 6 is speaking of our identification into Christ's death and resurrection in relation to sin.

God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
(Rom 6:2-6)


Rom 7 goes on in the same vein but with the relation to the Law...

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
(Rom 7:4)

F.F. Bruce: “baptism in the New Testament is always baptism in water unless the context shows it to be something else; that is to say, the word is always to be understood literally unless the context indicates a figurative meaning” (Questions Answered, p. 106)

"The word "baptized" is not the translation of the Greek word here, but its transliteration, its spelling in English letters. The word is used in the classics of a smith who dips a piece of hot iron in the water" Wuest, Kenneth

"Definition of [@baptisma]: immersion, submersion" Thayer

"This passage cannot be understood unless it is borne in mind that the primitive baptism was by immersion." Conybeare and Howson

So baptism in Rom 6 means a literal immersion, dipping in water, a "burial" where one is "raised up from" verse 4.

Both Christ and Paul have associated the new birth with water, Jn 3:5; Eph 5:26 "laver of water". This baptism of Rom 6 is Christ's baptism of the great commission, the one baptism of Eph 4:5 which had humans administering water baptism to make one a disciple of Christ.



Paul connects this water baptism in ROm 6 to salvation where one is "baptized into Christ". There is no salvation outside of Christ therefore baptism plays a role i one's salvation by putting him into Christ. Paul also connects this water baptism to being " freed from sin"/justified, verse 7. This water baptism is where one becomes "dead" freeing him from sin yet this justification does not happen unless one becomes "dead" and one can onlhy become 'dead' when water baptized. S the baptism in Rom 6 has to do with bring about salvation/freeing from sin not just some 'identification"

Christ's water baptism of the NT has nothing to do with the law of Moses in Rom 7. Christ's death took away the OT law freeing men to become married to Christ and His NT gospel which requires water baptism.

 

[SeaBass]

John 3: Born of water and the Spirit...

Water-- water of the WOMB...

that is the context of this passage. Nicodemus brings up the context of having been going back into his mother's womb to be born again.. not water of baptism!

So a person is born physically.. then later is born again by the Holy Spirit.. not involving water baptism.

Jn 3:5-------------Spirit++++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor12:13-------Spirit++++++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5---------Holy Spirit++++++++++laver of regeneration>>>>>>>>saved
Eph5:26--------the word++++++++++++++laver of water>>>>>>>>>>cleasned


Water means literal water. Jesus meant baptism by water in Jn 3:5 as Paul was referring to water baptism when he said "laver of water" not a 'womb of water'. Eph 5:26, Tts 3:5.


Jesus would not say to a full grown man standing in from of him "you must be physically born" for Jesus would realize Nicodemus was already physically born.

 

[SeaBass]

cleansed by water flowing out of the temple:


Ezekiel 47
English Standard Version (ESV)

47 Then he brought me back to the door of the temple, and behold, water was issuing from below the threshold of the temple toward the east (for the temple faced east). The water was flowing down from below the south end of the threshold of the temple, south of the altar.
2 Then he brought me out by way of the north gate and led me around on the outside to the outer gate that faces toward the east; and behold, the water was trickling out on the south side.
3 Going on eastward with a measuring line in his hand, the man measured a thousand cubits, and then led me through the water, and it was ankle-deep.
4 Again he measured a thousand, and led me through the water, and it was knee-deep. Again he measured a thousand, and led me through the water, and it was waist-deep.
5 Again he measured a thousand, and it was a river that I could not pass through, for the water had risen. It was deep enough to swim in, a river that could not be passed through.
6 And he said to me, “Son of man, have you seen this?” Then he led me back to the bank of the river.
7 As I went back, I saw on the bank of the river very many trees on the one side and on the other.
8 And he said to me, “This water flows toward the eastern region and goes down into the Arabah, and enters the sea; when the water flows into the sea, the water will become fresh.
9 And wherever the river goes, every living creature that swarms will live, and there will be very many fish. For this water goes there, that the waters of the sea may become fresh; so everything will live where the river goes.
10 Fishermen will stand beside the sea. From Engedi to Eneglaim it will be a place for the spreading of nets. Its fish will be of very many kinds, like the fish of the Great Sea.
11 But its swamps and marshes will not become fresh; they are to be left for salt.
12 And on the banks, on both sides of the river, there will grow all kinds of trees for food. Their leaves will not wither, nor their fruit fail, but they will bear fresh fruit every month, because the water for them flows from the sanctuary. Their fruit will be for food, and their leaves for healing.”​

Paul associated a laver of water with the new birth as Christ did in Jn 3:5 with both referring to water baptism.

 

[Bowhunter2394]

John 3: Born of water and the Spirit...

Water-- water of the WOMB...

that is the context of this passage. Nicodemus brings up the context of having been going back into his mother's womb to be born again.. not water of baptism!

So a person is born physically.. then later is born again by the Holy Spirit.. not involving water baptism.

correct.. many take and twist this to make it fit their carnal commandments, a works salvation, salvation by sacraments.. wise discernment!

 

[SeaBass]

Ellicott's Cmmentary:
Eph 5:26 "The true rendering is, that He might sanctify it, having cleansed it in the laver of the water in [the] Word. The reference in “the laver of the water” to baptism, is even more unquestionable than in “the laver of regeneration” of Titus 3:5. "

Tts 3:5 " The Greek should be rendered, “by the laver of regeneration,” &c. Then, by means of the laver of regeneration, &c, has God put us into a state of salvation. In other words, He has effected this by means of “baptism” (for the laver here can only signify the baptismal font, and is called the laver of regeneration because it is the vessel consecrated to the use of that sacrament), whereby, in its completeness as a sacrament, the new life in Christ is conveyed. Baptism, then, is the means through which we receive the saving grace of Christ; in its laver we are born again to a new life,"


Peake's Commentary:

Tts 3:5 "...but that God uses baptism as the act with which He associates cleansing from sin. This sacramental doctrine is apostolic (Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16,Galatians 3:27. Ephesians 5:26, 1 Peter 3:21),"

 

[SeaBass]

correct.. many take and twist this to make it fit their carnal commandments, a works salvation, salvation by sacraments.. wise discernment!

When the "water" of Jn 3:5 is compared and harmonized with other born again verses....

Jn 3:5-------------Spirit++++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor12:13-------Spirit++++++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5---------Holy Spirit++++++++++laver of regeneration>>>>>>>>saved
Eph5:26--------the word++++++++++++++laver of water>>>>>>>>>>cleasned


...it can be clearly seen that "water" of Jn 3:5 has to do with water baptism, as Paul associated a laver of water, not a woman's womb, with the new birth also. The physical birth is not in Jn 3:5 as it is not the other born again verses listed above. 1 Pet 1:23 the physical seed of corruption has nothing to do with being born again.

 

[SeaBass]

Whedon's Commentary:
Eph 5:26 "Referring, no doubt, to baptism,.."

Tts 3:5 "The washing—Or bath; either the bathing vessel or the act, which could be performed secularly, either by plunging into the water or by the application of water to the person."


Trapp's Complete Commentary:
Tts 3:5 "He saved us by the washing of regeneration] So baptism saveth us, 1 Peter 3:21. It sacramentally saveth, by sealing up salvation to the believer: hence it is called the laver of regeneration."

 

[posthuman]

i don't see "laver" in the text of Ephesians 5:26 . . . ?

as far as i can tell, the word is an addition to the original text, found only in one translation, the "Douay-Rheims Bible" - perhaps agenda-driven?


[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD]
[TABLE="class: maintext, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: top, width: 17%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Strong's[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 20%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Transliteration[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Greek[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]English[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Morphology[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2443 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hina[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἵνα[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]that[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]846 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]autēn[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]αὐτὴν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]her[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]PPro-AF3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]37 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hagiasē[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἁγιάσῃ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]he might sanctify,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-ASA-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2511 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]katharisas[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]καθαρίσας[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]having cleansed [her][/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-APA-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]tō[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τῷ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]by the[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-DNS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3067 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]loutrō[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]λουτρῷ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]washing[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-DNS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]tou[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τοῦ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]-[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-GNS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5204 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hydatos[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ὕδατος[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]of water[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-GNS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1722 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]en[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]by[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4487 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]rhēmati[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ῥήματι,[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"][the] word,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-DNS
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[posthuman]

Paul associated a laver of water with the new birth as Christ did in Jn 3:5 with both referring to water baptism.

** contests veracity of statements **

i am not at all convinced that Paul associated new birth with a "laver" (see post above) -- there is no mention of a laver in the Greek of the verse you pointed to. he specifically says we are cleansed by the word​.

Christ was not talking about water baptism in John 3.
flesh begets flesh, spirit begets spirit.
we've been well over that point many times before. neither is there any mention of a laver in His conversation with Nicodemus.

 

[posthuman]

Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the laver of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

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[TD="class: top, width: 17%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Strong's[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 20%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Transliteration[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Greek[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]English[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Morphology[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3756 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ouk[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]οὐκ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]not[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1537 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ex[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐξ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]by[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2041 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ergōn[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἔργων[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]works[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-GNP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]tōn[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τῶν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]-[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-GNP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1722 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]en[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]in[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1343 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]dikaiosynē[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]δικαιοσύνῃ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]righteousness,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-DFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3739 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ha[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἃ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]that[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]RelPro-ANP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4160 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]epoiēsamen[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐποιήσαμεν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]practiced[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-AIA-1P[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1473 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hēmeis[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἡμεῖς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]we,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]PPro-N1P[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]235 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]alla[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἀλλὰ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]but[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2596 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]kata[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]κατὰ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]according to[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]to[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τὸ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]-[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-ANS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]846 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]autou[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]αὐτοῦ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]his[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]PPro-GM3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1656 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]eleos[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἔλεος[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]mercy,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-ANS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4982 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]esōsen[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἔσωσεν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]he saved[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-AIA-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1473 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hēmas[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἡμᾶς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]us,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]PPro-A1P[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1223 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]dia[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]διὰ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]through[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3067 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]loutrou[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]λουτροῦ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"][the] washing[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-GNS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3824 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]palingenesias[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]παλινγενεσίας[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]of regeneration,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-GFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2532 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]kai[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]καὶ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]and[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]342 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]anakainōseōs[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἀνακαινώσεως[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]renewing[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-GFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4151 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]Pneumatos[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]Πνεύματος[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]of [the] Spirit[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-GNS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]40 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]Hagiou[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]Ἁγίου,[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]Holy;[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adj-GNS[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

this is not "laver" either.

again, i only found the "Douay-Rheims Bible" translating this as "laver" - no other common translation - though the quote below says it is in the marginal notes of RSV.

from Hastings' Dictionary of the New Testament:

‘Laver’ is the translation of λουτρόν in Ephesians 5:26 Revised Version margin, where the text has ‘washing.’ The same Greek word occurs in Titus 3:5, where the Revised Version margin again gives ‘laver.’ This rendering is at least doubtful. In the Septuagint כִּיוֹר, ‘a layer,’ is always rendered by λουτήρ, while λουτρόν is used for רַהְצָה, ‘washing,’ in Song of Solomon 4:2; Song of Solomon 6:6, Sirach 31:30. The phrase διὰ λουτροῦ παλινγενεσίας, therefore, probably means ‘through a washing, or bathing, of regeneration,’ rather than ‘through a laver, or font.’ For patristic references confirming the translation ‘washing,’ see J. A. Robinson’s Ephesians, 1903, p. 206.​

 

[wattie]

Yeah and what about John 3:16? No mention of baptism there. Or what about Romans 10? No baptism in that. Or shall we go in to John 5:24?
Full immersion baptism was often done very close in time to conversion. That is why you see it close to salvation verses. Nowadays most people wait a while before baptism. Back then people would be converted and then be immersed very soon after

 

[SeaBass]

** contests veracity of statements **

i am not at all convinced that Paul associated new birth with a "laver" (see post above) -- there is no mention of a laver in the Greek of the verse you pointed to. he specifically says we are cleansed by the word​.

Christ was not talking about water baptism in John 3.
flesh begets flesh, spirit begets spirit.
we've been well over that point many times before. neither is there any mention of a laver in His conversation with Nicodemus.

Jn 3:5-------------Spirit++++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor12:13-------Spirit++++++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5---------Holy Spirit++++++++++laver of regeneration>>>>>>>>saved
Eph5:26--------the word++++++++++++++laver of water>>>>>>>>>>cleansed


When comparing "born again" verses with 'born again' verses there is no doubt that "water" Jesus spoke of in Jn 3:5 is a clear reference to water baptism.

 

[SeaBass]

Yeah and what about John 3:16? No mention of baptism there. Or what about Romans 10? No baptism in that. Or shall we go in to John 5:24?
Full immersion baptism was often done very close in time to conversion. That is why you see it close to salvation verses. Nowadays most people wait a while before baptism. Back then people would be converted and then be immersed very soon after

Because baptism is not mentioned in every single passage about salvation does not mean it is unnecessary to salvation. 'Grace' and the 'blood of Christ' are not specifically mentioned in every passage about salvation yet who here would claim that neither are necessary to salvation?

 

[SeaBass]

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD][TABLE="class: maintext, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: top, width: 17%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Strong's[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 20%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Transliteration[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Greek[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]English[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Morphology[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3756 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ouk[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]οὐκ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]not[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1537 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ex[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐξ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]by[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2041 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ergōn[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἔργων[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]works[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-GNP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]tōn[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τῶν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]-[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-GNP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1722 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]en[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]in[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1343 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]dikaiosynē[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]δικαιοσύνῃ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]righteousness,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-DFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3739 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ha[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἃ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]that[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]RelPro-ANP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4160 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]epoiēsamen[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐποιήσαμεν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]practiced[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-AIA-1P[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1473 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hēmeis[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἡμεῖς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]we,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]PPro-N1P[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]235 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]alla[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἀλλὰ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]but[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2596 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]kata[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]κατὰ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]according to[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]to[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τὸ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]-[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-ANS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]846 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]autou[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]αὐτοῦ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]his[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]PPro-GM3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1656 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]eleos[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἔλεος[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]mercy,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-ANS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4982 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]esōsen[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἔσωσεν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]he saved[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-AIA-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1473 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hēmas[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἡμᾶς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]us,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]PPro-A1P[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1223 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]dia[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]διὰ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]through[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3067 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]loutrou[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]λουτροῦ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"][the] washing[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-GNS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3824 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]palingenesias[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]παλινγενεσίας[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]of regeneration,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-GFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2532 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]kai[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]καὶ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]and[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]342 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]anakainōseōs[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἀνακαινώσεως[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]renewing[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-GFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4151 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]Pneumatos[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]Πνεύματος[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]of [the] Spirit[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-GNS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]40 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]Hagiou[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]Ἁγίου,[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]Holy;[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adj-GNS[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

this is not "laver" either.

again, i only found the "Douay-Rheims Bible" translating this as "laver" - no other common translation - though the quote below says it is in the marginal notes of RSV.

from Hastings' Dictionary of the New Testament:

‘Laver’ is the translation of λουτρόν in Ephesians 5:26 Revised Version margin, where the text has ‘washing.’ The same Greek word occurs in Titus 3:5, where the Revised Version margin again gives ‘laver.’ This rendering is at least doubtful. In the Septuagint כִּיוֹר, ‘a layer,’ is always rendered by λουτήρ, while λουτρόν is used for רַהְצָה, ‘washing,’ in Song of Solomon 4:2; Song of Solomon 6:6, Sirach 31:30. The phrase διὰ λουτροῦ παλινγενεσίας, therefore, probably means ‘through a washing, or bathing, of regeneration,’ rather than ‘through a laver, or font.’ For patristic references confirming the translation ‘washing,’ see J. A. Robinson’s Ephesians, 1903, p. 206.​

Could it be Hastings has a bias against the bible's teachings on the necessity of water baptism?

Henry Alford: by means of the laver (not washing as AV, which the word cannot mean by any possibility; but always a vessel or pool in which the washing takes place. Here (Tts 3:5) the baptismal font.

The New Testament for English Readers: Containing the Authorized Version ...


Johann Bengel on Tts 3:5 "Laver, not washing as the Eng version, but the place or vessel in which the washing was done..."
The critical English Testament : being an adaptation of Bengel's Gnomon, with numerous notes, showing the precise results of modern criticism and exegesis

As time permits me today, I will be posting from more Greek scholars that the word loutron means laver not just a washing but the PLACE where the washing takes place.

Whether you want to argue if loutron means laver or not, I have already shown from many commentaries, even those that deny the bible's teaching on the necessity of water baptism, that say "washing of water/regeneration" refers to water baptism.