The Eucharist--Just a symbol or much more?

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Y

yogosans14

Guest
#1
From the Church’s early days, the Fathers referred to Christ’s presence in the Eucharist. Kelly writes: "Ignatius roundly declares that . . . [t]he bread is the flesh of Jesus, the cup his blood. Clearly he intends this realism to be taken strictly, for he makes it the basis of his argument against the Docetists’ denial of the reality of Christ’s body. . . . Irenaeus teaches that the bread and wine are really the Lord’s body and blood. His witness is, indeed, all the more impressive because he produces it quite incidentally while refuting the Gnostic and Docetic rejection of the Lord’s real humanity" (ibid., 197–98).

"Hippolytus speaks of ‘the body and the blood’ through which the Church is saved, and Tertullian regularly describes the bread as ‘the Lord’s body.’ The converted pagan, he remarks, ‘feeds on the richness of the Lord’s body, that is, on the Eucharist.’ The realism of his theology comes to light in the argument, based on the intimate relation of body and soul, that just as in baptism the body is washed with water so that the soul may be cleansed, so in the Eucharist ‘the flesh feeds upon Christ’s body and blood so that the soul may be filled with God.’ Clearly his assumption is that the Savior’s body and blood are as real as the baptismal water. Cyprian’s attitude is similar. Lapsed Christians who claim communion without doing penance, he declares, ‘do violence to his body and blood, a sin more heinous against the Lord with their hands and mouths than when they denied him.’ Later he expatiates on the terrifying consequences of profaning the sacrament, and the stories he tells confirm that he took the Real Presence literally" (ibid., 211–12).



Ignatius of Antioch

"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

"Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).



Justin Martyr

"We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).



Irenaeus

"If the Lord were from other than the Father, how could he rightly take bread, which is of the same creation as our own, and confess it to be his body and affirm that the mixture in the cup is his blood?" (Against Heresies 4:33–32 [A.D. 189]).

"He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase unto our bodies. When, therefore, the mixed cup [wine and water] and the baked bread receives the Word of God and becomes the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life—flesh which is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord, and is in fact a member of him?" (ibid., 5:2).



Clement of Alexandria

"’Eat my flesh,’ [Jesus] says, ‘and drink my blood.’ The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients, he delivers over his flesh and pours out his blood, and nothing is lacking for the growth of his children" (The Instructor of Children 1:6:43:3 [A.D. 191]).



Tertullian

"[T]here is not a soul that can at all procure salvation, except it believe whilst it is in the flesh, so true is it that the flesh is the very condition on which salvation hinges. And since the soul is, in consequence of its salvation, chosen to the service of God, it is the flesh which actually renders it capable of such service. The flesh, indeed, is washed [in baptism], in order that the soul may be cleansed . . . the flesh is shadowed with the imposition of hands [in confirmation], that the soul also may be illuminated by the Spirit; the flesh feeds [in the Eucharist] on the body and blood of Christ, that the soul likewise may be filled with God" (The Resurrection of the Dead 8 [A.D. 210]).



Hippolytus

"‘And she [Wisdom] has furnished her table’ [Prov. 9:2] . . . refers to his [Christ’s] honored and undefiled body and blood, which day by day are administered and offered sacrificially at the spiritual divine table, as a memorial of that first and ever-memorable table of the spiritual divine supper [i.e.,
the Last Supper]" (Fragment from Commentary on Proverbs [A.D. 217]).



Origen

"Formerly there was baptism in an obscure way . . . now, however, in full view, there is regeneration in water and in the Holy Spirit. Formerly, in an obscure way, there was manna for food; now, however, in full view, there is the true food, the flesh of the Word of God, as he himself says: ‘My flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink’ [John 6:55]" (Homilies on Numbers 7:2 [A.D. 248]).



Cyprian of Carthage

"He [Paul] threatens, moreover, the stubborn and forward, and denounces them, saying, ‘Whosoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily, is guilty of the body and blood of the Lord’ [1 Cor. 11:27]. All these warnings being scorned and contemned—[lapsed Christians will often take Communion] before their sin is expiated, before confession has been made of their crime, before their conscience has been purged by sacrifice and by the hand of the priest, before the offense of an angry and threatening Lord has been appeased, [and so] violence is done to his body and blood; and they sin now against their Lord more with their hand and mouth than when they denied their Lord" (The Lapsed 15–16 [A.D. 251]).



Council of Nicaea I

"It has come to the knowledge of the holy and great synod that, in some districts and cities, the deacons administer the Eucharist to the presbyters [i.e., priests], whereas neither canon nor custom permits that they who have no right to offer [the Eucharistic sacrifice] should give the Body of Christ to them that do offer [it]" (Canon 18 [A.D. 325]).



Aphraahat the Persian Sage

"After having spoken thus [at the Last Supper], the Lord rose up from the place where he had made the Passover and had given his body as food and his blood as drink, and he went with his disciples to the place where he was to be arrested. But he ate of his own body and drank of his own blood, while he was pondering on the dead. With his own hands the Lord presented his own body to be eaten, and before he was crucified he gave his blood as drink" (Treatises 12:6 [A.D. 340]).



Cyril of Jerusalem

"The bread and the wine of the Eucharist before the holy invocation of the adorable Trinity were simple bread and wine, but the invocation having been made, the bread becomes the body of Christ and the wine the blood of Christ" (Catechetical Lectures 19:7 [A.D. 350]).

"Do not, therefore, regard the bread and wine as simply that; for they are, according to the Master’s declaration, the body and blood of Christ. Even though the senses suggest to you the other, let faith make you firm. Do not judge in this matter by taste, but be fully assured by the faith, not doubting that you have been deemed worthy of the body and blood of Christ. . . . [Since you are] fully convinced that the apparent bread is not bread, even though it is sensible to the taste, but the body of Christ, and that the apparent wine is not wine, even though the taste would have it so, . . . partake of that bread as something spiritual, and put a cheerful face on your soul" (ibid., 22:6, 9).



Ambrose of Milan

"Perhaps you may be saying, ‘I see something else; how can you assure me that I am receiving the body of Christ?’ It but remains for us to prove it. And how many are the examples we might use! . . . Christ is in that sacrament, because it is the body of Christ" (The Mysteries 9:50, 58 [A.D. 390]).



Theodore of Mopsuestia

"When [Christ] gave the bread he did not say, ‘This is the symbol of my body,’ but, ‘This is my body.’ In the same way, when he gave the cup of his blood he did not say, ‘This is the symbol of my blood,’ but, ‘This is my blood’; for he wanted us to look upon the [Eucharistic elements] after their reception of grace and the coming of the Holy Spirit not according to their nature, but receive them as they are, the body and blood of our Lord. We ought . . . not regard [the elements] merely as bread and cup, but as the body and blood of the Lord, into which they were transformed by the descent of the Holy Spirit" (Catechetical Homilies 5:1 [A.D. 405]).



Augustine

"Christ was carried in his own hands when, referring to his own body, he said, ‘This is my body’ [Matt. 26:26]. For he carried that body in his hands" (Explanations of the Psalms 33:1:10 [A.D. 405]).

"I promised you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lord’s Table. . . . That bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the body of Christ. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ" (Sermons 227 [A.D. 411]).

...

"What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the body of Christ and the chalice is the blood of Christ. This has been said very briefly, which may perhaps be sufficient for faith; yet faith does not desire instruction" (ibid., 272).


We can see the early church fathers taught The Eucharist is really the body and blood of our Lord. I'm not catholic but why are we ignoring what has been taught for centuries by the early church?
 

SAVAS

Senior Member
Aug 18, 2013
154
2
16
#2
No responses here?! Great question.
 
Y

yogosans14

Guest
#3
No responses here?! Great question.
It doesn't suprise me :(

A lot of denomations teach the real prescence at communion but this forum is to puffed up with pride to admit it's more than a symbol
 
Dec 26, 2014
3,757
19
0
#4
No responses here?! Great question.
promoting the HERESY of and from the rcc is against the rules of this site. it is an abomination.


  1. Anti-Catholicism: The Curse of "Papists" - Biblical Evidence for ...

    socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/.../anti-catholicism-curse-of-papists.html


    Mar 7, 2007 ... The Catholic doctrine of the Eucharist is the same as "cannibalism. ... The late
    Keith Green, who died tragically in a plane crash in 1982, was a ...
  2. Keith Green "Catholic Chronicles" Jesuit Assassination of

    www.spirituallysmart.com/green.html

    The word "Eucharist" is a Greek word that means "thanksgiving. ...... A
    Conversation with Last Days Ministries (Keith Green's Ministry) about why they
    stopped ...

\The Roman catholic mass is both a blasphemy and an abomination ...
The PuritanBoard

The Roman catholic mass is both a blasphemy and an abomination. ... will" and
to believe the Eucharist wafer was really "jesus's" body and ...

#
Ephesians 5:11 - Bible Gateway
www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%205%3A11

Expose The Works of Darkness To God's Light. 11 And do not be participating in
the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather even be exposing them.
#
Ephesians 5:11-12 NIV;KJV - Have nothing to do with the fruitless ...
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians...12...

Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. It
is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#5
From the Church’s early days, the Fathers referred to Christ’s presence in the Eucharist. Kelly writes: "Ignatius roundly declares that . . . [t]he bread is the flesh of Jesus, the cup his blood. Clearly he intends this realism to be taken strictly, for he makes it the basis of his argument against the Docetists’ denial of the reality of Christ’s body. . . . Irenaeus teaches that the bread and wine are really the Lord’s body and blood. His witness is, indeed, all the more impressive because he produces it quite incidentally while refuting the Gnostic and Docetic rejection of the Lord’s real humanity" (ibid., 197–98).

"Hippolytus speaks of ‘the body and the blood’ through which the Church is saved, and Tertullian regularly describes the bread as ‘the Lord’s body.’ The converted pagan, he remarks, ‘feeds on the richness of the Lord’s body, that is, on the Eucharist.’ The realism of his theology comes to light in the argument, based on the intimate relation of body and soul, that just as in baptism the body is washed with water so that the soul may be cleansed, so in the Eucharist ‘the flesh feeds upon Christ’s body and blood so that the soul may be filled with God.’ Clearly his assumption is that the Savior’s body and blood are as real as the baptismal water. Cyprian’s attitude is similar. Lapsed Christians who claim communion without doing penance, he declares, ‘do violence to his body and blood, a sin more heinous against the Lord with their hands and mouths than when they denied him.’ Later he expatiates on the terrifying consequences of profaning the sacrament, and the stories he tells confirm that he took the Real Presence literally" (ibid., 211–12).



Ignatius of Antioch

"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

"Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).



Justin Martyr

"We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).



Irenaeus

"If the Lord were from other than the Father, how could he rightly take bread, which is of the same creation as our own, and confess it to be his body and affirm that the mixture in the cup is his blood?" (Against Heresies 4:33–32 [A.D. 189]).

"He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase unto our bodies. When, therefore, the mixed cup [wine and water] and the baked bread receives the Word of God and becomes the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life—flesh which is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord, and is in fact a member of him?" (ibid., 5:2).



Clement of Alexandria

"’Eat my flesh,’ [Jesus] says, ‘and drink my blood.’ The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients, he delivers over his flesh and pours out his blood, and nothing is lacking for the growth of his children" (The Instructor of Children 1:6:43:3 [A.D. 191]).



Tertullian

"[T]here is not a soul that can at all procure salvation, except it believe whilst it is in the flesh, so true is it that the flesh is the very condition on which salvation hinges. And since the soul is, in consequence of its salvation, chosen to the service of God, it is the flesh which actually renders it capable of such service. The flesh, indeed, is washed [in baptism], in order that the soul may be cleansed . . . the flesh is shadowed with the imposition of hands [in confirmation], that the soul also may be illuminated by the Spirit; the flesh feeds [in the Eucharist] on the body and blood of Christ, that the soul likewise may be filled with God" (The Resurrection of the Dead 8 [A.D. 210]).



Hippolytus

"‘And she [Wisdom] has furnished her table’ [Prov. 9:2] . . . refers to his [Christ’s] honored and undefiled body and blood, which day by day are administered and offered sacrificially at the spiritual divine table, as a memorial of that first and ever-memorable table of the spiritual divine supper [i.e.,
the Last Supper]" (Fragment from Commentary on Proverbs [A.D. 217]).



Origen

"Formerly there was baptism in an obscure way . . . now, however, in full view, there is regeneration in water and in the Holy Spirit. Formerly, in an obscure way, there was manna for food; now, however, in full view, there is the true food, the flesh of the Word of God, as he himself says: ‘My flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink’ [John 6:55]" (Homilies on Numbers 7:2 [A.D. 248]).



Cyprian of Carthage

"He [Paul] threatens, moreover, the stubborn and forward, and denounces them, saying, ‘Whosoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily, is guilty of the body and blood of the Lord’ [1 Cor. 11:27]. All these warnings being scorned and contemned—[lapsed Christians will often take Communion] before their sin is expiated, before confession has been made of their crime, before their conscience has been purged by sacrifice and by the hand of the priest, before the offense of an angry and threatening Lord has been appeased, [and so] violence is done to his body and blood; and they sin now against their Lord more with their hand and mouth than when they denied their Lord" (The Lapsed 15–16 [A.D. 251]).



Council of Nicaea I

"It has come to the knowledge of the holy and great synod that, in some districts and cities, the deacons administer the Eucharist to the presbyters [i.e., priests], whereas neither canon nor custom permits that they who have no right to offer [the Eucharistic sacrifice] should give the Body of Christ to them that do offer [it]" (Canon 18 [A.D. 325]).



Aphraahat the Persian Sage

"After having spoken thus [at the Last Supper], the Lord rose up from the place where he had made the Passover and had given his body as food and his blood as drink, and he went with his disciples to the place where he was to be arrested. But he ate of his own body and drank of his own blood, while he was pondering on the dead. With his own hands the Lord presented his own body to be eaten, and before he was crucified he gave his blood as drink" (Treatises 12:6 [A.D. 340]).



Cyril of Jerusalem

"The bread and the wine of the Eucharist before the holy invocation of the adorable Trinity were simple bread and wine, but the invocation having been made, the bread becomes the body of Christ and the wine the blood of Christ" (Catechetical Lectures 19:7 [A.D. 350]).

"Do not, therefore, regard the bread and wine as simply that; for they are, according to the Master’s declaration, the body and blood of Christ. Even though the senses suggest to you the other, let faith make you firm. Do not judge in this matter by taste, but be fully assured by the faith, not doubting that you have been deemed worthy of the body and blood of Christ. . . . [Since you are] fully convinced that the apparent bread is not bread, even though it is sensible to the taste, but the body of Christ, and that the apparent wine is not wine, even though the taste would have it so, . . . partake of that bread as something spiritual, and put a cheerful face on your soul" (ibid., 22:6, 9).



Ambrose of Milan

"Perhaps you may be saying, ‘I see something else; how can you assure me that I am receiving the body of Christ?’ It but remains for us to prove it. And how many are the examples we might use! . . . Christ is in that sacrament, because it is the body of Christ" (The Mysteries 9:50, 58 [A.D. 390]).



Theodore of Mopsuestia

"When [Christ] gave the bread he did not say, ‘This is the symbol of my body,’ but, ‘This is my body.’ In the same way, when he gave the cup of his blood he did not say, ‘This is the symbol of my blood,’ but, ‘This is my blood’; for he wanted us to look upon the [Eucharistic elements] after their reception of grace and the coming of the Holy Spirit not according to their nature, but receive them as they are, the body and blood of our Lord. We ought . . . not regard [the elements] merely as bread and cup, but as the body and blood of the Lord, into which they were transformed by the descent of the Holy Spirit" (Catechetical Homilies 5:1 [A.D. 405]).



Augustine

"Christ was carried in his own hands when, referring to his own body, he said, ‘This is my body’ [Matt. 26:26]. For he carried that body in his hands" (Explanations of the Psalms 33:1:10 [A.D. 405]).

"I promised you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lord’s Table. . . . That bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the body of Christ. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ" (Sermons 227 [A.D. 411]).

...

"What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the body of Christ and the chalice is the blood of Christ. This has been said very briefly, which may perhaps be sufficient for faith; yet faith does not desire instruction" (ibid., 272).


We can see the early church fathers taught The Eucharist is really the body and blood of our Lord. I'm not catholic but why are we ignoring what has been taught for centuries by the early church?

where you fail is in your inability to see how ancient man could speak in such a way because his mind linked the picture with the reality. David spoke of drinking the blood of his men when all he would have done was drink water from a drinking vessel. To him the water was the blood of his men. But he did not mean it literally. Nor did he mean it symbolically. He meant it parabolically.

ALL the citations you have made are the same. They follow the pattern of Jesus Who, when He wanted to speak of His enemies killing Him spoke of them eating His flesh and drinking His blood. These were common Old Testament ideas. In no way were these writers saying that the elements changed into the body and blood of Christ materially. They saw them AS the body and blood of Christ in the same was as David saw the water given to him as the blood of his men even though it was not. They were so parabolically. Thus they could speak of them as being His body and blood with total realism.

I speak of the bread as the body of Christ. I speak of the wine as the blood off Christ. For parabolically and spiritually it is. When I partake of it I really partake of Christ, BUT NOT BY CHEWING HIS FLESH.

Cannibalism is thankfully restricted to the Roman Catholic church, along with its idolatry.
 
Y

yogosans14

Guest
#6
promoting the HERESY of and from the rcc is against the rules of this site. it is an abomination.


  1. Anti-Catholicism: The Curse of "Papists" - Biblical Evidence for ...

    socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/.../anti-catholicism-curse-of-papists.html


    Mar 7, 2007 ... The Catholic doctrine of the Eucharist is the same as "cannibalism. ... The late
    Keith Green, who died tragically in a plane crash in 1982, was a ...
  2. Keith Green "Catholic Chronicles" Jesuit Assassination of

    www.spirituallysmart.com/green.html

    The word "Eucharist" is a Greek word that means "thanksgiving. ...... A
    Conversation with Last Days Ministries (Keith Green's Ministry) about why they
    stopped ...

\The Roman catholic mass is both a blasphemy and an abomination ...
The PuritanBoard

The Roman catholic mass is both a blasphemy and an abomination. ... will" and
to believe the Eucharist wafer was really "jesus's" body and ...

#
Ephesians 5:11 - Bible Gateway
www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ephesians%205%3A11

Expose The Works of Darkness To God's Light. 11 And do not be participating in
the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather even be exposing them.
#
Ephesians 5:11-12 NIV;KJV - Have nothing to do with the fruitless ...
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians...12...

Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. It
is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret.
Why are you so unloving?God doesn't dwell in you unless you love.
 
M

mikeuk

Guest
#7
And in all that time not one of the fathers said it was " just an allegory, just a symbol" or " just spiritual"

Indeed at Capernaum, the disciples left in droves because they really did think Jesus meant eating of flesh and blood, and rather than correct that by saying " it is ok guys, it is just a symbol or just spiritual" Indeed he did not backtrack a word, simply asking Peter so " will you go too? So clearly he did mean flesh and blood, which is why the disciples left.

It is only vaLiants determination to constrain Gods ability to things that are easy for him to understand, that makes him regard it as other than what Jesus said it was, and tradition has held for millennia since.

where you fail is in your inability to see how ancient man could speak in such a way because his mind linked the picture with the reality. David spoke of drinking the blood of his men when all he would have done was drink water from a drinking vessel. To him the water was the blood of his men. But he did not mean it literally. Nor did he mean it symbolically. He meant it parabolically.

ALL the citations you have made are the same. They follow the pattern of Jesus Who, when He wanted to speak of His enemies killing Him spoke of them eating His flesh and drinking His blood. These were common Old Testament ideas. In no way were these writers saying that the elements changed into the body and blood of Christ materially. They saw them AS the body and blood of Christ in the same was as David saw the water given to him as the blood of his men even though it was not. They were so parabolically. Thus they could speak of them as being His body and blood with total realism.

I speak of the bread as the body of Christ. I speak of the wine as the blood off Christ. For parabolically and spiritually it is. When I partake of it I really partake of Christ, BUT NOT BY CHEWING HIS FLESH.

Cannibalism is thankfully restricted to the Roman Catholic church, along with its idolatry.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
#8
If you read Numbers chapter 28; you will see that in this chapter, the appropriate sacrifice for various situations and occasions are described in detail. In addition, you will see that each offering was to be accompanied by a meal offering of unleavened bread, and a drink offering of wine or grape juice.

The meal offering and the drink offering, together, were known as the kiddush. Kiddush means sanctification.

Things of the world could not be presented for God's use without being sanctified.

At the last supper, Jesus did not institute anything new. He explained the true significance of the kiddush-- the sanctification of the offering.


He was saying, in effect, that the unleavened bread, which accompanies all your offerings, represents My body; and the wine / grape juice, which accompanies all your offerings, represents my blood.

Jesus NEVER taught trans-substantiation!
 
Sep 16, 2014
1,666
100
48
#9
He was saying, in effect, that the unleavened bread, which accompanies all your offerings, represents My body; and the wine / grape juice, which accompanies all your offerings, represents my blood.

Jesus NEVER taught trans-substantiation!
True! If Jesus had been accused of teaching men to eat human flesh or drink blood of man or animal, he would have justly been executed as a law breaker on that very spot. But the Pharisees and scribes that would have learned of that saying, likely witnessing it, were accustomed to such sayings, though it would have been more "polite" to make a euphemism out of what he referred to as his own terrible death, and the dangers of all who followed him. Jesus chose an expression similar to use of that form concerning the opposite end of righteousness, speaking of the wicked....

Proverbs 4:16-17 (KJV) [SUP]16 [/SUP]For they sleep not, except they have done mischief; and their sleep is taken away, unless they cause some to fall.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For they eat the bread of wickedness, and drink the wine of violence.
 
Sep 16, 2014
1,666
100
48
#10
There is no question that God has always been opposed to consumption of blood. Before the Law of Moses he prohibited Noah in Genesis 9:3-4 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.


The Law that Jesus had to obey
......Genesis 9:3-4 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.


Punishments for doing abominations was severe, often stoning to death. Had Jesus violated just one law of Moses he would have died a criminal, in no way eligible to be Savior.

When you read enough of the early Church "fathers" you might soon realize most of them had a very dim view of Jews and the Law of Moses, largely because of the great damage Judaizers did to all the Christians they could find. They treated the Church like ISIS does today. There famous, often quoted earliest scholars were almost all antisemitic, even cruel in words towards anything Jewish. It was nothing to them to interpret Jesus' words of eating human flesh and drinking human blood, consciously turning Jewish hearts against Christianity. That was the highest insult those Christians could invent.
 
May 3, 2013
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#12
I have a friends who LITERALLY belive that!

AS I have observed THEIR priests. Why do they give the church that "bread" and only priest drink THEIR wine? (To save money or TO MAKE MORE "holy" THEIR priests and priesthood?)

If His body is for all who believed (baptised ones) why do I need to ask ANOTHER MEN for forgiveness, if I have access to pray, before God, for my transgression, in the name of Jesus (not in the name of any priests who plays like a MEDIATOR, like a procurator) seated HERE on earth.

That bread is spiritual!

If it becomes the actual blood and body of Christ, I could be cannibalistic.
 
May 3, 2013
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#15
Thatś good but, if it was the way to BE PARTAKEN, I see, too often, their priests get the wine only for them, as if it was a sacred privilege they only have and deserve...
 
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WheresEnoch

Guest
#16
Sorry yugosans14, but Jesus said it is only to be done in remembrance of Him. He did not say it gives people life.

The problem here is that you get your understanding of God from everywhere but God. The best advice I can give you is to forget everything you have been taught about religion, stop going to whatever religious institution you are going to and start over. Just read the Bible for yourself to figure this stuff out.

The Bible is God's word, but you have been taught to believe and do what men who are not God tell you.
Ditch the fake priest, you are meant to be a priest unto God.
 
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Jan 6, 2014
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#17
"Verily, verily, I say to you. Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:53-54 KJV

the literalists don't much care for this scripture.
 
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WheresEnoch

Guest
#18
"Verily, verily, I say to you. Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:53-54 KJV

the literalists don't much care for this scripture.
Does anyone care for truth these days?
 
Jan 6, 2014
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#19
Good question , certainly we are in the last of days.