Hope For Natural-Born LGBT

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WebersHome

Senior Member
Dec 9, 2014
1,940
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0
#1
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LGBT are really in the news of late because of all the flap about bakery
shops refusing to sell wedding cakes, and flower shops refusing to sell floral
arrangements for gay weddings. But the hope that this thread introduces is
neither political nor legal: rather; it pertains to the afterlife.

Back in 1968, when I was a young single guy living alone in a one-room
budget rental; it occurred to me that it would sure be a whole lot easier to
please God if I was like Him instead of like me. Well; imagine the
amazement that washed over me upon discovering that my thoughts were
on the right track.

†. 2Pet 1:4 . . He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises,
in order that by them you might become partakers of the divine nature.

While I was home from work sick one day several years ago, I watched a
morning show hosted by Regis Philbin and Kathie Lee Gifford. Somehow the
Bible passage below came up in conversation.

"Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be
lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life." (John
3:14-15)

Neither Regis nor Kathie had a clue what Christ's statement is saying; and
both are Christians-- Regis a Catholic and Kathie a Protestant.

I was thunderstruck that two very popular, high-profile Christian celebrities
blew a golden opportunity to explain the gospel to a nationwide audience
due, not to opposition by the devil, nor to opposition by non Christians; but
simply due to their own ignorance of Christ's teachings.

The incident to which he referred is located at Num 21:5-9. Long story
short: Yhvh's people became weary of eating manna all the time at every
meal. But instead of courteously, and diplomatically, petitioning their divine
benefactor for a different diet, they became hostile and confrontational;
angrily demanding tastier food.

In response to their insolence, and their ingratitude for His providence; Yhvh
sent a swarm of deadly poisonous vipers among them; which began striking
people; and every strike was 100% fatal, no exceptions. Then the people
came to their senses and asked Moses to intercede. In reply; Yhvh
instructed Moses to fashion an image of the vipers and hoist it up on a pole
in plain view so that everyone dying from venom could look to the image for
relief.

The key issue here is that the image was the only God-given remedy for the
people's bites— not sacrifices and offerings, not tithing, not church
attendance, not scapulars, not confession, not holy days of obligation, not
the Sabbath, not the golden rule, not charity, not Bible study and/or Sunday
school, not self denial, not vows of poverty, not the Ten Commandments,
not one's religion of choice, no; not even prayers. The image was it. In other
words then: Christ's crucifixion is the only God-given, fail-safe escape from
the wrath of God; and when people accept it and depend upon it; then
according to John 3:14-16, they qualify for eternal life.

So; how does any of this relate to the divine nature about which Peter spoke
at 2Pet 1:4?

Well; the eternal life that Christ spoke of in John 3:14-16 is simply another
way of saying divine life. I mean: who but God is eternal, and who but God
is divine? So: eternal life is associated with divine nature just as human life
is associated with human nature. They're joined at the hip.

Eternal life is often confused with immortality; but they are not the same.
Immortality has to do with a body that's impervious to death and
putrefaction. Eternal life has to do with the nature of God. (1John 1:1-2)

One of Webster's definitions of nature is: the inherent character or basic
constitution of a person or thing.

The basic constitution of human life is human nature. The basic constitution
of eternal life is divine nature. If somebody can understand what human
nature is; then they can understand what divine nature is. The one is
inherent within humans, the other inherent within God.

Bottom line: eternal life is the solution to a natural-born LGBT's dilemma.
With eternal life they will never be tempted to be LGBT again (Jas 1:13) and
actually, will never commit any kind of sin ever again (1John 3:9); thus their
entry into the holy city depicted in the 21st chapter of Revelation is assured,
and their name guaranteed to be registered in the Lamb's book of life.

"Nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall
ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's
book of life. (Rev 21:27)

===========================================
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
70,869
9,601
113
#2
​I don't quite understand the title of this thread. People are NOT natural-born gays or lesbians or transgenders. :confused:
 

WebersHome

Senior Member
Dec 9, 2014
1,940
32
0
#3
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The OP offers hope to not only natural-born LGBT; but also to natural-born
liars, gamblers, and alcoholics; et al.

======================================
 

WebersHome

Senior Member
Dec 9, 2014
1,940
32
0
#4
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Everybody has problems with proclivities which Webster's defines as an
inclination or predisposition toward something: especially a strong inherent
inclination toward something objectionable. And everybody also has
problems with predilections; which Webster's defines as a natural liking for
something: a tendency to do or to be attracted to something

†. Eph 2:2-4 . .We too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging
the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of
wrath, even as the rest.

With a pronoun like "we" Paul included himself as someone with natural-born
longings and desires for bad things. And the pronoun "all" precludes the
possibility of any one Christian claiming to be born free of a strong inherent
inclination toward something objectionable and/or a tendency to do, or to be
attracted to, something bad.

My point is; unless something were done to remedy people's predilections
and proclivities nobody would qualify for citizenship in either the new cosmos
or the holy city depicted in the 21st chapter of Revelation. All would be
barred entry even though Christ gave his life to atone for everybody's sins.

The problem is, they would go right on sinning just like always because their
predilections and proclivities would drive them to sin; and were they to
suppress those predilections and proclivities I think they would eventually
suffer a nervous break down because they would be fighting against nature;
which everybody instinctively knows is a fight that can't be won without
suffering serious psychological consequences. Well; heaven is depicted as a
place of peace, joy, and happiness; rather than a place where people go
around with long faces because they aren't getting laid with the gender of
their choice.

I'd imagine there's going to be a lot of bitter resentment at the Great White
Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15 when people I knew in life see me in
the gallery dressed in white watching them being condemned to the lake of
flaming sulfur for doing the very same thing in life that I did. "Hey!" they'll
yell in protest. "What about him? How come he gets a pass when he's just
as much a liar as we are?"

And the Lord will answer: "Who Cliff? Oh yeah; I remember him. He was a
pretty chronic liar in life: couldn't trust a thing he said. But at least Cliff had
the good sense to take me up on, not a sex change; but a change of nature.
As a result, Cliff is no longer a liar; in point of fact it is impossible for Cliff to
lie and just as impossible to tempt him to lie. And as for all Cliff's dishonesty
in life? Well; I took care of all that on the cross so my Father would have
nothing with which to charge him. Up here, Cliff is an innocent man. Sorry
about that."

In other words: Absolute innocence is the ultimate goal of the plan of
salvation; and to my knowledge the only way thus far to obtain it is via the
divine nature that the OP introduced; and that goes for everybody, not just
LGBT.

==========================================
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#5
​I don't quite understand the title of this thread. People are NOT natural-born gays or lesbians or transgenders. :confused:
I disagree. Every one is born with a sin nature. To me, that's something like saying everyone is born with eyes. Some eyes are blue, some green, etc., but still eyes.

My proclivity to sin was bound in gossip and lying. (Really hard to master gossip without mastering lying.) Thus, I was a natural-born lying gossip. It didn't stop my guilt, any more than it stops my guilt because it's my natural-born eyes that look on something in lust.

I think we give too much time in worrying whether someone is a natural in their sin or not. We're all natural to sin. The difference is we have to rise above the natural through, and to, the supernatural -- God.

If we can move beyond what someone was born into, we can get to the part where they have to be reborn out of. Sin is sin. It's condemnable. We're condemnable when we sin. So, then what?
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#6
-
Everybody has problems with proclivities which Webster's defines as an
inclination or predisposition toward something: especially a strong inherent
inclination toward something objectionable. And everybody also has
problems with predilections; which Webster's defines as a natural liking for
something: a tendency to do or to be attracted to something

†. Eph 2:2-4 . .We too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging
the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of
wrath, even as the rest.

With a pronoun like "we" Paul included himself as someone with natural-born
longings and desires for bad things. And the pronoun "all" precludes the
possibility of any one Christian claiming to be born free of a strong inherent
inclination toward something objectionable and/or a tendency to do, or to be
attracted to, something bad.

My point is; unless something were done to remedy people's predilections
and proclivities nobody would qualify for citizenship in either the new cosmos
or the holy city depicted in the 21st chapter of Revelation. All would be
barred entry even though Christ gave his life to atone for everybody's sins.

The problem is, they would go right on sinning just like always because their
predilections and proclivities would drive them to sin; and were they to
suppress those predilections and proclivities I think they would eventually
suffer a nervous break down because they would be fighting against nature;
which everybody instinctively knows is a fight that can't be won without
suffering serious psychological consequences. Well; heaven is depicted as a
place of peace, joy, and happiness; rather than a place where people go
around with long faces because they aren't getting laid with the gender of
their choice.

I'd imagine there's going to be a lot of bitter resentment at the Great White
Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15 when people I knew in life see me in
the gallery dressed in white watching them being condemned to the lake of
flaming sulfur for doing the very same thing in life that I did. "Hey!" they'll
yell in protest. "What about him? How come he gets a pass when he's just
as much a liar as we are?"

And the Lord will answer: "Who Cliff? Oh yeah; I remember him. He was a
pretty chronic liar in life: couldn't trust a thing he said. But at least Cliff had
the good sense to take me up on, not a sex change; but a change of nature.
As a result, Cliff is no longer a liar; in point of fact it is impossible for Cliff to
lie and just as impossible to tempt him to lie. And as for all Cliff's dishonesty
in life? Well; I took care of all that on the cross so my Father would have
nothing with which to charge him. Up here, Cliff is an innocent man. Sorry
about that."

In other words: Absolute innocence is the ultimate goal of the plan of
salvation; and to my knowledge the only way thus far to obtain it is via the
divine nature that the OP introduced; and that goes for everybody, not just
LGBT.

==========================================
Whoa! I didn't read this before I responded. :)
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#7
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The OP offers hope to not only natural-born LGBT; but also to natural-born
liars, gamblers, and alcoholics; et al.

======================================

Are you saying we are all born into sin,or homosexuals were born that way? Theres a difference...
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
70,869
9,601
113
#8
I disagree. Every one is born with a sin nature. To me, that's something like saying everyone is born with eyes. Some eyes are blue, some green, etc., but still eyes.

My proclivity to sin was bound in gossip and lying. (Really hard to master gossip without mastering lying.) Thus, I was a natural-born lying gossip. It didn't stop my guilt, any more than it stops my guilt because it's my natural-born eyes that look on something in lust.

I think we give too much time in worrying whether someone is a natural in their sin or not. We're all natural to sin. The difference is we have to rise above the natural through, and to, the supernatural -- God.

If we can move beyond what someone was born into, we can get to the part where they have to be reborn out of. Sin is sin. It's condemnable. We're condemnable when we sin. So, then what?
Babies are NOT born gay, lesbian, or whatever. As for what color a person's eyes are, that's genetic. Being gay or lesbian is NOT genetic. Babies don't wake up one day at 6 months old, and think "I'm a gay baby." They don't even have any concept of what being gay even means. Yes, we are born with a sinful nature, God created us that way, but he disapproves of people being gay, committing adultery,etc.. so why would he make them BORN gay? That's silly.
 

WebersHome

Senior Member
Dec 9, 2014
1,940
32
0
#9
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Are you saying we are all born into sin,or homosexuals were born that way?
Theres a difference.
I could only but wish that there were some way to get your mind off trivial
matters and impress upon you that people who pass on into the next life
lacking the divine nature about which Peter spoke at 2Pet 1:4, and Christ
spoke at John 3:14-16, will be sentenced to the lake of burning sulfur as per
Rev 21:8 and barred from entering the holy city as per Rev 21:28; and it
won't matter whether they are LGBT or non LGBT. Nobody is exempt. The
divine nature isn't optional; it's a must.

†. John 3:7 . .You must be born again.

=================================================
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#10
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I could only but wish that there were some way to get your mind off trivial
matters and impress upon you that people who pass on into the next life
lacking the divine nature about which Peter spoke at 2Pet 1:4, and Christ
spoke at John 3:14-16, will be sentenced to the lake of burning sulfur as per
Rev 21:8 and barred from entering the holy city as per Rev 21:28; and it
won't matter whether they are LGBT or non LGBT. Nobody is exempt. The
divine nature isn't optional; it's a must.

†. John 3:7 . .You must be born again.

=================================================

No one said you didnt have to be born again to get to heaven.Yes,that means everyone.

Jude-save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.

Homosexuality is an abomination. You can not be a practicing homosexual,or believe its ok to be a homosexual and go to heaven.Thats my point.Also,no one is born gay.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#11
Babies are NOT born gay, lesbian, or whatever. As for what color a person's eyes are, that's genetic. Being gay or lesbian is NOT genetic. Babies don't wake up one day at 6 months old, and think "I'm a gay baby." They don't even have any concept of what being gay even means. Yes, we are born with a sinful nature, God created us that way, but he disapproves of people being gay, committing adultery,etc.. so why would he make them BORN gay? That's silly.
The first thing a baby masters is suckling. The second thing a baby masters is what we all master in -- ME first. (I could be wrong on which place these two things happen.)

We are born of sin into sin, and thus are sinful/full of sin. That same baby learns how to master ME first. Some of us master it in bullying, some master it in attention seeking, some of us master it with sneakiness. Attention seekers. They (we) tend to act out in different ways to see which way gets us the most attention. Getting same sex "love." Getting opposite sex "love." (Both come under fornicating, not love.) Does it get any better than that? Gratification is definitely in the mix. So, yeah, I really see that a baby is born that way.

We're all born that way. We just figured out which way it benefits us the most and went in that direction... until God regenerates us.

Sorry. I know there are people who truly believe babies aren't sinful, but I've watched enough sinful babies in action to appreciate how quickly we learn the benefits of sin, naturally. We are not tabula rasa.

I also know someone who was raped at 18 months old. It woke up his sexuality early, so yes, even babies can go there.
 
Dec 1, 2014
9,701
251
0
#12
Bottom line: eternal life is the solution to a natural-born LGBT's dilemma.
Jesus is the solution to everyone's dilemma -- straight, gay or whatever. And?
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#13
No one said you didnt have to be born again to get to heaven.Yes,that means everyone.

Jude-save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.

Homosexuality is an abomination. You can not be a practicing homosexual,or believe its ok to be a homosexual and go to heaven.Thats my point.Also,no one is born gay.
Let's try it this way. All sin is worthy of separation from God, death and hell, right?

Then let's try your approach for a sin that might be closer to innate in you.

"Strife is an abomination. You cannot be a practicing strife-causer, or believe it's okay to be a strife-causer and go to heaven. That's my point. Also no one is born a strife-causer."

So, is that also true, or is only the homosexual barred from heaven? (BTW, Jacob was born a strife-causer and then mastered it. lol)

Where people get this idea only other-people's-sins can keep someone out of heaven, I'll never know. It's always, "Not us. THEM." But really it is very much us too.

And, yeah, I get it. Once we learn we're a strife-causer, we're to stop. Not all that easy, is it? Can't we give that for all other sinners? We're works in process, not completed works. It's really not a name-it-and-claim-it gospel.
 

jsr1221

Senior Member
Jul 7, 2013
4,265
77
48
#14
Babies are NOT born gay, lesbian, or whatever. As for what color a person's eyes are, that's genetic. Being gay or lesbian is NOT genetic. Babies don't wake up one day at 6 months old, and think "I'm a gay baby." They don't even have any concept of what being gay even means. Yes, we are born with a sinful nature, God created us that way, but he disapproves of people being gay, committing adultery,etc.. so why would he make them BORN gay? That's silly.
I see it as an alcoholic gene. Even though it's in you, you don't have to act on it. I think there's too much just for it to be considered a social/environmental factor that makes someone gay. I don't know. No one does. Only God does. And I don't think it's our job to determine if one is born gay or not. Because the debate will go on until Christ does return. With regards to homosexuality, it's our job to treat them like Christ would. Cause we were no different than them before accepting Christ and acknowledging our sins. We're still no different.
 

WebersHome

Senior Member
Dec 9, 2014
1,940
32
0
#15
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Homosexuality is an abomination. You can not be a practicing homosexual,or
believe its ok to be a homosexual and go to heaven.
I'd imagine there's going to be a lot of bitter resentment at the Great White
Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15 when numbers of LGBT-hating
Christians see themselves condemned to the lake of burning sulfur while up
in the gallery transformed LGBT folk dressed in white look on. Oh the
exquisite irony of it.

Awwww-Haw-Haw-Haw-Hawwwwww! ;)

==========================================
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#16
Let's try it this way. All sin is worthy of separation from God, death and hell, right?

Then let's try your approach for a sin that might be closer to innate in you.

"Strife is an abomination. You cannot be a practicing strife-causer, or believe it's okay to be a strife-causer and go to heaven. That's my point. Also no one is born a strife-causer."

So, is that also true, or is only the homosexual barred from heaven? (BTW, Jacob was born a strife-causer and then mastered it. lol)

Where people get this idea only other-people's-sins can keep someone out of heaven, I'll never know. It's always, "Not us. THEM." But really it is very much us too.

And, yeah, I get it. Once we learn we're a strife-causer, we're to stop. Not all that easy, is it? Can't we give that for all other sinners? We're works in process, not completed works. It's really not a name-it-and-claim-it gospel.

I dont want to sound nasty,but I have already stated ALL sinners who do not repent go to hell.No where did I ever say only gays go to hell,in fact said the opposite. I have a problem with a gay community that tries to force acceptance of homosexuality on the church.I have a problem with "God made me this way".I have a problem when homosexuals say that Jesus never said homosexuality was wrong. BUT if a homosexual hears the truth and understands homosexuality is sin and repents and begins to turn form that sin,I think that is a wonderful thing.It may not happen overnight but they headed in the right direction.I have a problem with anyone who says "I can sin and God overlooks it" no matter what sin it is.Gays are getting attention from Christians because they are trying to force Christians to say being gay is ok and you can be gay and a Christian.That is where the issue is.As a Christian we cannot agree that homosexuality is not a sin and just accept it and accept they were born gay.Its not right,its not what the Bible teaches.
 

jsr1221

Senior Member
Jul 7, 2013
4,265
77
48
#17
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I'd imagine there's going to be a lot of bitter resentment at the Great White
Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15 when numbers of LGBT-hating
Christians see themselves condemned to the lake of burning sulfur while up
in the gallery transformed LGBT folk dressed in white look on. Oh the
exquisite irony of it.

Awwww-Haw-Haw-Haw-Hawwwwww! ;)

==========================================
Why would anyone being thrown into hell be considered a laughing matter to you? I don't care if your "awwhawwhaww" was meant as a joke. There are those struggling with homosexuality on this site, and to post something like that is highly inconsiderate of you.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#18
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I'd imagine there's going to be a lot of bitter resentment at the Great White
Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15 when numbers of LGBT-hating
Christians see themselves condemned to the lake of burning sulfur while up
in the gallery transformed LGBT folk dressed in white look on. Oh the
exquisite irony of it.

Awwww-Haw-Haw-Haw-Hawwwwww! ;)

==========================================

Yes,Im sure hell is quite funny. What makes you think "Christians" hates gays? Rather generalizing dont you think? And gays who repent and turn from their sins will be called saints just like other repentant sinners.No one said someone who is gay cant be forgiven. Just because I disagree with a lifestyle doesnt make me hate anyone.You are judging and generalizing.


Quote "Oh the exquisite irony of it.Awwww-Haw-Haw-Haw-Hawwwwww!" Soooo this is the Christlike attitude you are claiming Christians should have for homosexuals?! I think you need to remove the splinter from your own eye...
 

jsr1221

Senior Member
Jul 7, 2013
4,265
77
48
#19
I dont want to sound nasty,but I have already stated ALL sinners who do not repent go to hell.No where did I ever say only gays go to hell,in fact said the opposite. I have a problem with a gay community that tries to force acceptance of homosexuality on the church.I have a problem with "God made me this way".I have a problem when homosexuals say that Jesus never said homosexuality was wrong. BUT if a homosexual hears the truth and understands homosexuality is sin and repents and begins to turn form that sin,I think that is a wonderful thing.It may not happen overnight but they headed in the right direction.I have a problem with anyone who says "I can sin and God overlooks it" no matter what sin it is.Gays are getting attention from Christians because they are trying to force Christians to say being gay is ok and you can be gay and a Christian.That is where the issue is.As a Christian we cannot agree that homosexuality is not a sin and just accept it and accept they were born gay.Its not right,its not what the Bible teaches.
I think a real Christian can agree that it's a sin. Now is it something you a born with? Like an alcoholic gene? That's a different question that only God Himself knows the answer to. In my opinion, I think there's too much of a coincidence for every homosexual to be from a social or or economic factor. People are born differently. That is a fact. There is still stuff from genetics we probably do not know. Again, only God knows. While I believe that one can be born that way, doesn't mean the individual has to act on it. It's like alcoholism for me. I know what it will do because I have seen it with my grandpa. With my dad. With my mom. With my sister. And with my step dad (albeit not born from him, I grew up under him). The issue lies on how we treat the gay community. We're supposed to go about it Christlike. In everything we do.
 
J

je1979

Guest
#20
Hey everyone, my first post. Satan desires for people to lose focus. Because Jesus commanded everyone to be born again, it becomes irrelevant whether a person is born homosexual or not (John 3:3, 7). To the OP, I got lost at the eternal life being different from immortality. 1 John 3:14 says that the true worshipers have already passed from death unto life right now. As long as they remain faithful servants, eternity has already begun for them. Remember, Jesus didn't regard death to be anymore than sleep (John 11:11). Rom. 2:7; 1 Cor 15:53-54 and 2 Tim 1:10 speak of immortality and eternal as one and the same. Holiness is the nature of God, eternal life is His duration and reward to give to those who are holy as He is holy (Heb. 4:11; 1 Pet. 1:16.) Prior to the bottom half of what the OP has stated, I agree with it. Not that my agreeing has any power, but because it is scriptural. The scripture has power (Heb. 4:12).