TRUE BAPTISM

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Apr 17, 2015
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Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.


It is always interesting to me that when some people hear the word baptism they immediately smell water. There are people who are like that. Whenever they read these passages, and see the word baptism, they smell water, but there is no water here. This is a dry passage.


This passage is dealing, of course, with the question of how we died to sin, how we became separated from being in Adam, how we became joined in Christ. No water can do that. That requires something far more potent than water. It is, therefore, a description for us of what is called the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Paul wrote to the Corinthians: For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body — whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free — and we were all given the one Spirit to drink, 1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


Lord, thank you for this assurance that, having been baptized in the Holy Spirit, I can rest assured that I am dead to sin and alive to you.


Life Application: Can water baptism bring us out of our death in Adam and into new Life in Christ? What is its purpose? What essential and transforming truth does the baptism of the Holy Spirit signify
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#2
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.


It is always interesting to me that when some people hear the word baptism they immediately smell water. There are people who are like that. Whenever they read these passages, and see the word baptism, they smell water, but there is no water here. This is a dry passage.


This passage is dealing, of course, with the question of how we died to sin, how we became separated from being in Adam, how we became joined in Christ. No water can do that. That requires something far more potent than water. It is, therefore, a description for us of what is called the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Paul wrote to the Corinthians: For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body — whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free — and we were all given the one Spirit to drink, 1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


Lord, thank you for this assurance that, having been baptized in the Holy Spirit, I can rest assured that I am dead to sin and alive to you.


Life Application: Can water baptism bring us out of our death in Adam and into new Life in Christ? What is its purpose? What essential and transforming truth does the baptism of the Holy Spirit signify
Amen and I agree....water immersion is the picture, painting and public statement of believing in and identifying with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.....it is the outward sign of the inward conversion..........nothing more, nothing less.......!
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#3
be immersed in Christ.
 
M

mikeuk

Guest
#4
The problem is the word "were" as in were baptized, so your passage speaks of the effect of it, not the process or rite.
And as a sacrament there is an outward act which signifies the inward grace and coming of spirit. Such as "laying of hands" elsewhere in the bible.

The rite was passed on by succession from apostles to others they taught.
In this case early writings / church fathers make it clear what the rite was.

The didache.
"Now concerning baptism, baptize as follows: after you have reviewed all these things, baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit in running water. But if you have no running water, then baptize in some other water; and if you are not able to baptize in cold water, then do so in warm. But if you have neither, then pour water on the head three times in the name of the Father and Son and Holy Spirit. And before the baptism let the one baptizing and the who who is to be baptized fast, as well as any others who are able. Also, you must instruct the one who is to be baptized to fast for one or two days beforehand."

Which is certainly wet!
 
Dec 1, 2014
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#5
All Christian denominations, in some format, believe in water baptism, sprinkings, blessings, immersion, etc. Although JESUS gave us a Supreme example of humility and public display of this, He personally never 'dunked" anyone in water. The real difference I see between denominational lines is the Baptism of the Spirit. Notice it did not occur with the original Apostles until years later after they had walked and talked with JESUS CHRIST. There is not 'set' timing for this. I have witnessed some newborn CHRISTIANS immediately be immersed into HIS Spirit, go into a joyful, happy, exuberant, dancing, shouting praising mode and tongues upon their conversion. Some come out of water and the Holy Spirit moves upon them. My seminary professor witnessed a 7 yr old totally blind girl since birth, come straight out of a baptism and opened her eyes for the first time, completely healed. However, I've seen stoic CHRISTIANS who, for years, finally surrender to HIS SPIRIT. IT was then, at that moment, that they were filled so much that they could not stand still. Some run, some get so weak in their knees in His presence (like me) that they collapse while GOD is dealing with them, one on one. We cannot work out a method of just when, how and why GOD moves upon someone. HE is a perfect gentleman. Depending on the personality of HIS child, GOD extends the awesome filling of HIS Spirit in due time and in a very open, loving way.
One time, I was so curious as to try to understand what a person was going through when I witnessed a friend of mine get 'slain in the SPIRIT". I boldly walked over, reached out and touched her while GOD was dealing directly with her. I lost the support and use of my legs and had to be carried to my seat. I could not even set up straight and slid down onto the floor. This went on for close to an hour. All I could do was cry, bury my face in the carpet and surrender to HIS touch. GOD was showing me something very important: "Let me deal with my children in MY WAY..do not interfere or dictate your personal opinion upon it." If a person sways, runs around the sanctuary, jumps...dances, testifies or just stands and cries, sobbing, shaking or raising hands to heaven, etc..it's all GOOD for the Great Physician is healing and cleansing in a specific way for that particular CHILD.
 

Hepzibah

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2015
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#6
Unfortunately, what is commonly called 'the baptism of the Spirit' today has become a counterfeit of the real thing. In the following article written around the beginning of the 20th Century, we have a warning about the manifestations.

"Light on “Abnormal Experiences” from a book by Pastor Ernst Lohmann



Just as in a caricature, the outstanding features of the true picture are to be found, so that a likeness is unmistakable, so phenomena which we find in heathen systems, in theosophy so-called, or new Buddhism, in spiritism etc, resemble to some extent the Divine manifestations called forth by the working of the Holy Spirit upon the Spirit of man. They also produce revelations and prophecies, speaking and singing in tongues, healing and miracles. It is of importance that we should study this subject to find an answer to the question as to how these phenomena are brought about. It is self evident that they are not manifestations of the Holy Spirit. The numerous and exact investigations which are being made in our day into the subject, are giving us increasing insight into this dark realm.


Powers and possibilities have been discovered in man which until now have been totally unsuspected. They are designated “ subliminal powers” and we speak of “subconscious ness” (J Grasset, “Le psychisme inferieur” 1906 writes “Psychical proceedings fall into two groups; 1)those of a lower class-unconscious, mechanical, involuntary” On this subject Dr Naum Kotik says in “The Emanation of Psycho-physical energy”- “Under ordinary conditions in the activity of the brain, the sub-consciousness hardly makes itself felt and for this reason we have no suspicion of its existence. There are conditions of the psyche however, such as somnambulism, in which the sub consciousness comes to the front, takes over the complete control, and forces the super consciousness back into he position in which it [viz the sub-conscious] rightfully belongs. The actions which attest the activity of the sub-consciousness independently of the super-consciousness are usually termed automatic).


What physical occurrences accompany these phenomena? The lower nerve centres (the ganglionic system, or the vegetate nerves as they are called) which have their chief seat in the region around the pit of the stomach, are excited to increased activity. At the same time, the central region of the higher nervous system (the cerebral system) which in a normal state of affairs is the medium of conscious perception and action becomes paralysed. There is a reversal of the order of nature. The lower nerves take over the duty of the higher ones (a sort of compensation). This sort of things comes to pass negatively by the higher organ losing its natural supremacy under pressure of illness or artificially by hypnosis, auto-suggestion etc and positively by the lower nerves being in some way excited artificially to increased activity, whereby they get the upper hand. These nerves then display abilities which our ordinary organs of sense do not possess; they receive impressions from a realm usually closed to us, such as clairvoyance, presentiments, speaking with tongues etc.


The Mohammedan sooth sayer, Dschala-Ed-Dinrumi, describes the trance state as follows: “My eyes are closed and my heart is at the open gate”. Anna Katharina Emmerich (1774-1824): “I see the light, not with my eyes, but it is as though I saw it with my heart (with the nerves which have their seat in the pit of the stomach)…that which is actually around me I see dimly with my eyes like one dozing and beginning to dream; my second sight is drawing me forcibly and is clearer than my natural sight, but it does not take place through my eyes…” When in a state of somnambulism, the inner sense heightened in its activity, perceives outward things as clearly and more so than when awake, when it recognises tangible objects with eyes tight closed and absolutely unable to see, just as well as by sight; this takes place, according to the unanimous declaration of all somnambulists, through the pit of the stomach i.e. through the nerves, which have their seat in this region…..And it is from this part that the nerves are set in action which move the organs of speech (in speaking with tongues etc)…


Numberless cases of false mysticisms through all the centuries of church history, display the same characteristics, the sub-conscious being always the medium of such perception and functions. They are morbid, coming under the garb of Divine manifestations, to lead souls astray. Now it is very significant that according to the assertions of the leaders, it is an activity of the sub-conscious that we meet with in the “Pentecostal Movement” so called. We read in a report of an “International Pentecostal Conference”


“On Tuesday, a Pastor introduced the discussion. The main topic was the working of the sub-conscious mind in messages and prophecy. Much confusion prevailed concerning the relation of our consciousness to our sub-conscious. The scriptural discrimination was preferable (1Cor 14:14, 15) where they are spoken of as ‘understanding’ and ‘spirit’.”


“When Christ lives in us, He lives in our hearts and in the heart are two chambers. In one room lives the conscience and through the conscience I can know that Christ lives in me. In the other room of my heart, there is a sub-conscious, and there also Christ lives. We look at 1Cor 14:14 ‘For if I pray in a tongue my spirit prayeth but my understanding is unfruitful.”


“Notice the expression “my spirit” (my sub-conscious mind) and also the expression “my understanding” i.e. when my spirit prays in tongues, my *sub-conscious* mind prays”


In the Declaration of the Second Mulheim “Pentecostal Conference” September 15[SUP]th[/SUP] 1909, we read-


“In 1Cor 14:14 (Luther’s translation) Paul makes a distinction between the understanding and the spirit of man. By the word understanding, he means the conscience and by the word spirit, the unconscious spiritual life of man, in this *unconscious* spiritual life, in modern terms also termed “sub-conscious”, God has placed the gift of speaking with tongues and prophecy…”


According to this, the spiritual life of the believer is SYNONYMOUS WITH THE SUBCONSCIOUS OF THE SOMNAMBULIST. And the more highly developed this subconscious is in any individual, the more highly developed would be their spiritual life. Just try substituting the word sub-conscious in those passages where the scripture speaks of the spirit of man, for example Ps 51:17, Ps 77:6, Isa 66:2, Acts 7:59, Acts 18:5, Acts 20:22, Romans 1:9, Romans 2:29, Romans 8:16, 1Cor 2:11, 1Cor 4:21, 1Cor 5:5, Gal 6:1, Gal 6:18, Eph 4:23, 1Thess 5:23.


Those in whom the sub-conscious becomes active in the manner described above, *feel as it were an electric stream passing through the body* which is an *exiting of the nerves* which have their central seat in the pit of the stomach. It is from thence that the jaws are moved in speaking in tongues.


One of the leaders of the “Pentecostal Movement* in describing the process of this so called Baptism of the Spirit in his body, made use of the singular comparison that it seemed to him as though there were in his body an inverted bottle. The simile was incomprehensible to me, but this way of expressing it was most strikingly illuminated when I found an almost identical expression used by a Mohammedan sooth-sayer. Tewekkul Beg, a pupil of Mollah Scah, was receiving instruction from his master as to how he could get into the ecstatic state. He says “After he had bound my eyes…I saw something in my inner being resembling a *fallen tumbler*….When this object was placed upright a feeling of unlimitless bliss filled my being”


This feeling of bliss is another characteristic feature of this class of occurrences. By exiting the lower nervous system, a feeling of intense rapture is regularly produced…At first we find connected with it usually, INVOLUNTARY CONTRACTION OF THE MUSCLES AND MOVEMENT OF THE LIMBS in consequence of the natural inversion of the nervous system.


Pastor Paul again says-


“If anyone is to prophecy in the way I have now learnt, God must be able to move the mouth of the one prophesying as He formally moved the mouth of Balaam’s ass. The ass understood nothing of the words which he spoke; she only said what she was to say. There is a danger in uttering things we understand. It is so easy to mix in one’s own thoughts and then to utter what one thinks. (Insert from me-Where is the Mind of Christ?) This occurs without our intending it in the least. This is the reason why God trains His prophets in so preparing them that they utter exactly what the Spirit gives them. Speaking in strange tongues is a good preliminary school. There one learns to speak as the mouth is moved. One speaks without knowing what one is saying by simply following the position of the mouth. Just so in prophecy, there too, one speaks as led by the position of the mouth. Speaking with tongues and prophesying are both on the same principle”


It is evident that in these phenomena, we have the exact opposite of what the scriptures understands by the communication of the Spirit. When the Spirit of God takes possession of the spirit of man HE IS BROUGHT BACK INTO A NORMAL CONDITION, the SPIRIT acquires the full authority given it by the Creator over the powers of the soul, and through the soul, over the body. The conscious personal life is once more completely under the authority of the spirit. The dependency upon God which man sought to break off, in his mania for exalting himself by setting his reason, his emotions or the flesh upon the throne, is restored again. The Spirit of God can exercise once more His controlling and quickening power. The deeds of the flesh are put to death by the Spirit, the powers and the gifts of the Spirit developed and the man becomes spiritual, full of the Holy Spirit.”


The light given by Herr Lohmann will open the eyes of many perplexed believers and give them intelligent understanding of much that has distressed them and caused painful division among the most devoted children of God. It will also confirm statements we have made concerning the working of evil spirits in the *circumference* of the believer at the very same time that, up to the extent of his consciousness he may know nothing of himself before the Lord, for Satan and his emissaries are well aware of the laws of the human frame, and work along their line, arousing and exciting the natural life, under the guise of it being spiritual.


The false conception of “surrender” as yielding the *body* to supernatural power, with the *mind* ceasing to act, is the highest subtly of the enemy and is exposed as such in this book, for it brings about-as Herr Lohmann explains- the paralysis of the “cerebral” systems i.e. the action of the mind and allows the “vegetative nerves” full control and activity excited by evil spirits, for the Holy Spirit dwells in and acts THOUGH THE SPIRIT OF MAN and not through either nerve centre, which have both to be under the control of the spirit.




We have also pointed out again and again that “claiming the Blood” cannot protect us from the enemy if in any way he is given ground e.g. if the cerebral nerves cease to act by “letting the mind go blank” and the vegetative nerves are awakened to act in their place, so that the latter are excited to give “thrills” and “streams of life” through the body, no claiming of the precious blood of Christ will prevent these physical laws acting when the conditions for action are fulfilled. Hence the strange fact which has perplexed many, that abnormal experiences manifestly contrary to the Spirit of God, have taken place whilst the person was earnestly repeating words about the “Blood”.


Moreover, the arousing of the vegetative nerves to such an abnormal activity, that “floods of life” have appeared to flow through the whole body, the enemy whispering at the same time “This is divine”


1) dulls the mind and makes it inert in action


2)causes a craving in the recipient for more of this “Divine life”


3)leads to the danger of ministration of it to others and all that follows as this path is pursued in honest faith and confidence of being “specially advanced” in the life of God.


Should any reading this discover their own case depicted, let them thank God for knowledge of the truth, and


1)simply reject by an attitude of will, all that is not of God


2)consent to trust God in His word without any “experiences”


3)stand on Romans 6:11 with James 4:7 in respect to the adversary. John 16:13, “Through the Eternal Spirit”
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#7
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.


It is always interesting to me that when some people hear the word baptism they immediately smell water. There are people who are like that. Whenever they read these passages, and see the word baptism, they smell water, but there is no water here. This is a dry passage.


This passage is dealing, of course, with the question of how we died to sin, how we became separated from being in Adam, how we became joined in Christ. No water can do that. That requires something far more potent than water. It is, therefore, a description for us of what is called the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Paul wrote to the Corinthians: For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body — whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free — and we were all given the one Spirit to drink, 1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


Lord, thank you for this assurance that, having been baptized in the Holy Spirit, I can rest assured that I am dead to sin and alive to you.


Life Application: Can water baptism bring us out of our death in Adam and into new Life in Christ? What is its purpose? What essential and transforming truth does the baptism of the Holy Spirit signify


1)
Proper interpretation/hermeneutics says "The literal or proper sense of the word or phrase must always be accepted as the intended sense, unless there is an absolute necessity for understanding it figuratively"
http://www.wlsessays.net/files/LillegardHermeneutics.pdf

F.F. Bruce: “baptism in the New Testament is always baptism in water unless the context shows it to be something else; that is to say, the word is always to be understood literally unless the context indicates a figurative meaning” (Questions Answered, p. 106).

Proper interpretation demands 'baptizo' be understood literally in Rom 6, a literal immersion, literal dipping in water. NOTHING in the context shows baptize is being used figuratively. The context does not say "baptism with the Holy Spirit". That idea is added to the verse to try and find a way to get around the water baptism the verse is talking about. If 'baptism with the Holy Spirit' can be added to this verse then anyone can add anything they choose to any verse.


2) Rom 6:4 this baptism one is "buried" then is "raised up from" One is literally buried in a watery grave that one is then raised up from. If this were spirit baptism one would be figuratively buried in the spirit but then raised up FROM that spirit not maintaining the spirit he claims he has.

3) there is one baptism in effect in this present Christian dispensation Eph 4:5 which is the disciple/human administered water baptism of Christ's great commission, where Paul water baptized 1 Cor 1:14,15, one water baptism 1 Cor 6:11 and 1 Cor 12:13.

Jn 3:6--------------------spirit+++++++++++++water>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor12:13---------------spirit+++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>in the body


4)

Christ's human administered water baptism of the great commission:
a) saves, Acts 2:38; Mk 16:16
b) is commanded Acts 2:38

Nowhere does the bible say baptism with the Holy Spirit saves or is commanded yet the baptism of Rom 6 saves and was "obeyed from the heart" verse 17.

Rom 6:7 "For he that is dead is freed from sin."
The baptism in Rom 6 saves/frees from sins, where one's sins are remitted per Acts 2:38.


Rom 6:17,18 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.


What was it those Romans OBEYED from the heart that free them from sin? The command to be water baptism. The water baptism in verses 3 and 4 makes one "dead" and v7 says he that is "dead" is freed from sin.

Baptism with the Holy Spirit was never commanded so it cannot be obeyed from the heart
Baptism with the Holy Spirit is never said to make one "dead"
Baptism with the Holy Spirit is never said to free one from sin
Baptism with the Holy Spirit is never described as a burial which one is raised up from
Baptism with the Holy Spirit is never said to remit sins
Baptism with the Holy Spirit was a prophecy of Joel that the Lord fulfilled, brought to an end, ceased some 2000 years ago
Baptism with the Holy Spirit cannot be the baptism of Rom 6:1-7.
 
Last edited:

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,612
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#8
...It is always interesting to me that when some people hear the word baptism they immediately smell water. There are people who are like that. Whenever they read these passages, and see the word baptism, they smell water, but there is no water here. This is a dry passage...
You would have had problem with the apostles and the early christians with your modernist view of watering down water baptism.
 

Hepzibah

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2015
337
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#9
Nowhere does the bible say baptism with the Holy Spirit saves or is commanded yet the baptism of Rom 6 saves and was "obeyed from the heart" verse 17.
[h=2]1 Peter 3:21 Translations[/h][h=3]King James Version (KJV)[/h] The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
[h=3]American King James Version (AKJV)[/h]The like figure whereunto even baptism does also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
[h=3]American Standard Version (ASV)[/h]which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;
[h=3]Basic English Translation (BBE)[/h]And baptism, of which this is an image, now gives you salvation, not by washing clean the flesh, but by making you free from the sense of sin before God, through the coming again of Jesus Christ from the dead;
[h=3]Webster's Revision[/h]which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;
[h=3]World English Bible[/h]This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you--not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
[h=3]English Revised Version (ERV)[/h]which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;

It is speaking of Spirit baptism that saves us.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#10
1 Peter 3:21 Translations

King James Version (KJV)

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
American King James Version (AKJV)

The like figure whereunto even baptism does also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
American Standard Version (ASV)

which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;
Basic English Translation (BBE)

And baptism, of which this is an image, now gives you salvation, not by washing clean the flesh, but by making you free from the sense of sin before God, through the coming again of Jesus Christ from the dead;
Webster's Revision

which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;
World English Bible

This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you--not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
English Revised Version (ERV)

which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;

It is speaking of Spirit baptism that saves us.
Peter is writing about water baptism, the water baptism of Christ's great commission that saves:

1 Pet 3:21------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
Acts 2:38-------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>for remission of sins

------------------------------------

Why would Peter say the baptism of 1 Pet 3:21 is not for washing away the filth of the flesh if he were not talking about literal water?


-----------------------------------

In the context, Peter is making an OT type to NT anti-type connection:

1Pet 3:20 OT type:>>>>>> saved by water
1Pet 3:21 NT antitype:>>>> saved by water

The NT antitype being a mirror reflection of the OT type.

Noah saved by water - flood
Us saved by water - baptism
 

Hepzibah

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2015
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#11
If water baptism saves, then where are all the Catholics and Anglicans that got baptised as babies? The churches could not hold them all for services if they remained followers of Christ. Obviously the majority do not.

Peter is clear: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God ie not water which cleanses the flesh alone, but an inner work of God or in other words Spirit baptism so that a man can be born again in spirit.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#12
If water baptism saves, then where are all the Catholics and Anglicans that got baptised as babies? The churches could not hold them all for services if they remained followers of Christ. Obviously the majority do not.

Peter is clear: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God ie not water which cleanses the flesh alone, but an inner work of God or in other words Spirit baptism so that a man can be born again in spirit.
Baptism saves regardless of where the Catholics or Anglicans are.

Baptism is the answer of a good conscience towards God. Conscience has to do with sin, baptism remits sins (Acts 2:38) where one can have a good conscience towards God. In Acts 2 Peter convicted his hearers of crucifying the Christ. Their conscience became guilty of that sin, being pricked in their hearts they asked Peter what shall we do. The "answer" Peter gave them for their guilty conscience was the command to repent and be baptized for remission of sins. Baptism, remitting their sins, would be their answer for a good conscience towards God.


Again, the OT type to NT anti-type proves Peter is talking about literal water baptism as the world was flooded with literal water.
 
Apr 9, 2015
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#13
If water baptism saves, then where are all the Catholics and Anglicans that got baptised as babies? The churches could not hold them all for services if they remained followers of Christ. Obviously the majority do not.

Peter is clear: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God ie not water which cleanses the flesh alone, but an inner work of God or in other words Spirit baptism so that a man can be born again in spirit.

water baptism as an infant is the direct conflict that goes on thru my family, He Saved me thru Grace because He knew me from the Very Beginning, they tell me I was saved as an 'infant'. NOPE.. thus the Division, it is real..

Water Baptism of the New Convert, Outward manifestation of His Death and Resurrrection, an act, the person is already Saved, this Done because the Convert as Led by the Spirit , he/she wants to be identified with Christ upon the New Birth, as he/she desires that because of the Work of the Paraclete, not a manifestation that the water saves.. no, do those who have been Genuinely regenerated, KNOW THE JOY, of being FORGIVEN? wow... I cant explain that feeling...! its Glorious....... those who are Genuinly Saved, the Paraclete is With them upon Conversion. He was the One in Control of the whole Salvation process in the First Place.... the Baptism in the Spirit the Holy Ghost, is still Active today , Indeed, I've had many call the Baptism in the Spirit, those around me and close to me, the work of the devil. because they were taught, that doesn,t exist anymore... mm WRONG... those are no longer alive, but physically dead.. indeed! albeit satan counterfeits that, and he is very active today in his counterfeiting, but the Baptism in the Holy Ghost, does happen, as Led of by the Lord Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh!
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
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#14
If water baptism saves, then where are all the Catholics and Anglicans that got baptised as babies? The churches could not hold them all for services if they remained followers of Christ. Obviously the majority do not.
Which does not prove that water baptism is not "true baptism", which it is, God working in same. If some people have made water baptism a mere cultural custom rather than to fulfill the duty to raise their children in the christian faith it still does not disprove that water baptism is of divine origin, instituted and commanded by God and containing rich promises. Amen.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#15
*sigh* Here we go again. To baptize means to place under. When we are baptized into Christ we are placed under Him, literally under His blood, where we stay forever. If that were water baptism we would drown. We are dipped in the water and we emerge from the water. The baptism that saves is Spirit and not water. Water can only ever symbolize what the Spirit has done in the realm of eternity.

Some will never receive this simple truth but will cling to the earthly elements and perish.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Jon4TheCross

Senior Member
Oct 19, 2012
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#16
Just a reminder...
The first thing Jesus did after water baptism was fast out in the woods. The first thing His followers did after He went up into heaven was wait in Jerusalem.

The first thing Paul did was not eat or drink for 3 days.

Be transformed by the renewing of the mind....and...the washing of the water of the Word.

Greatest commandment also starts with...

Hear, O Israel.
 
Sep 16, 2014
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#17
Why didn't Jesus water baptize followers?
Why didn't he at least occasionally list water baptism as a requirement ?
Why did Paul avoid water baptisms?

What did John mean in Matthew 3:11-12 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


If you were there around Noah and he invited you to join with him building the ark, would you have shared in the ark, or choose the water? How long can you tread water without a break?

Is your salvation based on a figure, a symbol or type of the real? 1 Peter 3:18-21 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
[SUP]19 [/SUP] By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

[SUP]21 [/SUP] The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Jesus is the Ark of our salvation. His water is the Word, which washes us clean.


Earth's water has no power to save. Jesus does.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#18
Why didn't Jesus water baptize followers?
Jn 4:1 "When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,"

Jn 4:1,2 Jesus did baptize, not anyone personally but water baptized by giving His authority to the disciples to water baptize.
Word_Swordsman said:
Why didn't he at least occasionally list water baptism as a requirement ?
MK 16:16; Jn 3:5; Acts 2:38 etc, etc
Word_Swordsman said:
Why did Paul avoid water baptisms?
Paul did not, he was baptized himself, Acts 22;16, baptized others, 1 Cor 1:14,16 and taught the necessity of baptism in passages as Rom 6:3-7; Gal 3:27, Col 2:11,12; etc

Words_Swordsman said:
What did John mean in Matthew 3:11-12 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


If you were there around Noah and he invited you to join with him building the ark, would you have shared in the ark, or choose the water? How long can you tread water without a break?
John was announcing the type of baptism he baptized with and the types of baptism Christ would baptize with, but John never promised anyone in his crowd, or anyone today, they would be baptized with the HS.
Word_Swordsman said:
Is your salvation based on a figure, a symbol or type of the real? 1 Peter 3:18-21 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
[SUP]19 [/SUP] By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

[SUP]21 [/SUP] The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Jesus is the Ark of our salvation. His water is the Word, which washes us clean.


Earth's water has no power to save. Jesus does.
The word "like figure" as used in the KJV in 1 Pet 3:21 is anti-type that means a mirror reflection. If you had a die and made an imprint in a piece of metal with that die, then the die is the type and the imprint left by the die is the anti-type to the die, the imprint is a mirror reflection of the die.

In the context Peter makes an OT type (the die) to a NT anti-type (the imprint)
1Pet3:20 OT type (die)>>>>>>>>>>saved by water
1Pet3:21 NT antitype (imprint)>>>>>saved by water

If the die is a letter "a" then the imprint will be a mirror reflection of the letter "a".
Likewise if the die is 'saved by water' then the imprint must be a mirror reflection of that which is "saved by water".

The die is not saved by an ark and the imprint we are saved by an ark
The die Peter used is Noah "saved by water" and the imprint is we are "saved by water".
The die cannot be "saved by water" and the imprint be "saved by an ark" no more than the die can be an "a" and the imprint a "b".
 
Last edited:
Dec 9, 2011
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#19
The thief on the cross was not baptized in water,was he saved?