Biblical advice needed for a pastorless congregation

[SolidGround]

Our pastor is retiring after 25 years of faithful service to our congregation. He trained up many young men in our +-180 member body, who have now gone on to pastor other churches. It is a small church, but a very active and growing church.

Even with our growth as a body, our finances are not "good".
We are an inner city congregation, in a poor neighbourhood. Many of those who come to Christ among us are barely able to support their families, and though they give mightily of heart, and the total is spiritually impressive and inspiring... the total is simply not physically impressive.
The retiring pastor's salary was only 25k (which was a recent raise), and he was content serving with us even at such a meager compensation for the work that he put in.

How can we find a replacement with such an intensive ministry on such a small budget?

Should we, the deacons, divide the responsibilities of pastorship among ourselves?

Should we find a part time preacher, and then fill the roles of counseling and discipleship among the deacons?

Should we hire a part time counselor, and then fill the roles of preaching among the deacons?


Verses and prayers needed here. We are pressed, but not crushed.

 

[SolidGround]

I know that some of my plight is merely physically minded,
but I do want to have a Biblical proposal/solution to suggest to the rest of the deacons at our next meeting.

I suppose what I want to know is if the Biblical model for a congregation allows for a volunteer group led church, rather than a centralized paid pastor position being the "head" of the local body, under Christ.

A worker is worth his wages... so perhaps a paid position is needed.

 

[sltaylor]

I know that some of my plight is merely physically minded,
but I do want to have a Biblical proposal/solution to suggest to the rest of the deacons at our next meeting.

I suppose what I want to know is if the Biblical model for a congregation allows for a volunteer group led church, rather than a centralized paid pastor position being the "head" of the local body, under Christ.

A worker is worth his wages... so perhaps a paid position is needed.

Biblical advice, sounds like you hit on it right at the end there, was gonna give you this scripture, but as for the biblical model you mentioned, I would just add this, IT IS A BIBLICAL MODEL....LOL, should be a good enough example if it IS BIBLICAL:

1st Cor. 14:Orderly Worship

26*What then shall we say, brothers?When you come together, everyone*has a hymn,*or a word of instruction,*a revelation, a tongue*or an interpretation.*All of these must be done for the strengthening*of the church.*

27*If anyone speaks in a tongue, two--or at the most three--should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret.*

28*If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.*

29*Two or three prophets*should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.

30*And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop.*

31*For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.*

32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets.*

33*For God is not a God of disorder*but of peace.


That being said, don't forget about evangelists, I'm sure many have read what Paul wrote to Timothy and it spoke to them, and they took up that work as well.

GOD Bless.

 

[crossnote]

Those pastors who were trained at that Church may want to alternate taking turns filling in until a pastor is found.

 

[SolidGround]

Those pastors who were trained at that Church may want to alternate taking turns filling in until a pastor is found.

That has been suggested by one of the deacons. Thank you for the confirmation.

 

[phil112]

Our pastor is retiring after 25 years of faithful service to our congregation. He trained up many young men in our +-180 member body, who have now gone on to pastor other churches. It is a small church, but a very active and growing church.

Even with our growth as a body, our finances are not "good".
We are an inner city congregation, in a poor neighbourhood. Many of those who come to Christ among us are barely able to support their families, and though they give mightily of heart, and the total is spiritually impressive and inspiring... the total is simply not physically impressive.
The retiring pastor's salary was only 25k (which was a recent raise), and he was content serving with us even at such a meager compensation for the work that he put in.

How can we find a replacement with such an intensive ministry on such a small budget?

Should we, the deacons, divide the responsibilities of pastorship among ourselves?

Should we find a part time preacher, and then fill the roles of counseling and discipleship among the deacons?

Should we hire a part time counselor, and then fill the roles of preaching among the deacons?


Verses and prayers needed here. We are pressed, but not crushed.

Salary? I'm not a preacher but I'd do it in a new york second. Pffttt...Salary? Are there no young men that simply want to pass the gospel along?
Heart breaking. All I want to do is talk about His word and no one has willing ears.
In retrospect I suppose I should have listened to dad. He wanted me to be a preacher but I never felt qualified nor called.

You asked "should we", and here is my response. Talk to the young men in your congregation. Tell them what you have told us. Impress upon them that God put them here, not by chance, but because this is their time. Now is when they are supposed to make a stand.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Our pastor is retiring after 25 years of faithful service to our congregation. He trained up many young men in our +-180 member body, who have now gone on to pastor other churches. It is a small church, but a very active and growing church.

Even with our growth as a body, our finances are not "good".
We are an inner city congregation, in a poor neighbourhood. Many of those who come to Christ among us are barely able to support their families, and though they give mightily of heart, and the total is spiritually impressive and inspiring... the total is simply not physically impressive.
The retiring pastor's salary was only 25k (which was a recent raise), and he was content serving with us even at such a meager compensation for the work that he put in.

How can we find a replacement with such an intensive ministry on such a small budget?

Should we, the deacons, divide the responsibilities of pastorship among ourselves?

Should we find a part time preacher, and then fill the roles of counseling and discipleship among the deacons?

Should we hire a part time counselor, and then fill the roles of preaching among the deacons?


Verses and prayers needed here. We are pressed, but not crushed.

I pray God mightily bless your congregation there in Israel.

I've been on pastor search committees several times, know it isn't easy discerning which is sent by the Lord. If you have partner congregations, meaning one or more other similar churches are in good standing with your last pastor, they ought to be consulted. It sounds to me yours is a chance for others to be blessed by blessing you folks. There is wisdom in the council of many. Proverbs 15:21-22 (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] Folly is joy to him that is destitute of wisdom: but a man of understanding walketh uprightly.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellors they are established.

None of you deacons can assume role of pastor unless the Lord has gifted you for that. let those members of your congregation who have spiritual gifts now minister to one another meanwhile. Get your teachers together with the board and go through 1 & 2 Timothy for direct guidance rom the Holy Spirit. That's where your matters are discussed.

Give attention to a brother in the Lord that meets the conditions in those epistles, knows them. He will be one that feeds the the Lord's sheep. None can be a good shepherd part-time. It's On Call 24/7.

It's not a wise thing to try attracting a pastor with a salary. Many will be certain the Lord has called them there if the price is right. Let God's pick tell you what the Lord has told him. He ought to come on faith, and your congregation certainly needs to ramp up living by faith. He ought to accept your board's affirming you will bless him according to what the Lord determines. God won't send a pastor there if it means he has to live by unpayable debt, shaming your congregation.

Your board knows what is required for the next pastor to live from the gospel ministry in your area. Count his expected cost, be ready to meet that as a minimum. He is likely to come by personal sacrifice, so should your congregation share in his needs.

Here's the last word on the Lord's expectation of any congregation.

1 Corinthians 9:1-14 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?
[SUP]2 [/SUP] If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Have we not power to eat and to drink?
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
[SUP]12 [/SUP] If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

The gentile Corinthians were familiar with pagan temples which operated by support of the citizens. So did the Jews. So should Christians support those who serve them with the gospel.

Pray and fast, let the Spirit deal with each member, teach them such things as those verses. God will provide, giving what everyone needs to do his will. Concerning your congregation's ability to support a pastor or do anything in faith as directed by God:
2 Corinthians 9:10-12 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;

That was in reference to the taking up of a large gift for other believers. They did it. And you can do it too, and bless the man of God sent to feed your sheep, which is far more than just preaching to them.

 

[atwhatcost]

Our pastor is retiring after 25 years of faithful service to our congregation. He trained up many young men in our +-180 member body, who have now gone on to pastor other churches. It is a small church, but a very active and growing church.

Even with our growth as a body, our finances are not "good".
We are an inner city congregation, in a poor neighbourhood. Many of those who come to Christ among us are barely able to support their families, and though they give mightily of heart, and the total is spiritually impressive and inspiring... the total is simply not physically impressive.
The retiring pastor's salary was only 25k (which was a recent raise), and he was content serving with us even at such a meager compensation for the work that he put in.

How can we find a replacement with such an intensive ministry on such a small budget?

Should we, the deacons, divide the responsibilities of pastorship among ourselves?

Should we find a part time preacher, and then fill the roles of counseling and discipleship among the deacons?

Should we hire a part time counselor, and then fill the roles of preaching among the deacons?


Verses and prayers needed here. We are pressed, but not crushed.

This was back in the late 90s, so finances have probably increased since then. (Good luck figuring out how much different. We have kept up with finances for 15 years. lol)

We were members of a planted church, and one that split shortly before we started. (Gossiping was given no room in that church, so I don't know what happened.) What was left was something like 50-70 people and no pastor.

But, we're within driving distances to Westminster's Seminary, and practice giving a message before graduating was something to lap up. They were graduating more students than were needed to fill pastor positions, so we also got a couple of men who had graduated years earlier, but took some jobs that weren't church related. (One fixed upholstery on diner booth seats for a living. That kind of far removed.) So four men promised to help us through it all. And they rotated weeks, so roughly once a month. They were paid $300, since it's not just giving the message, it's also preparing for it. (And, in my denomination that's 40 hours of work, so they were getting minimum wages, if that much.) 50-70 people, but that includes kids, so lets say 50 people. That's $6 a week just to pay the pastor part. More, for tithe. Many were broke, but four of us were comfortably middle-class, so we helped with what others couldn't afford.

And then the elders and interested men did the ministering part. They're the guys that went out to different people's homes, either to have service there, preach the gospel, or help out in any way needed.

One guy freely cleaned the church each week. (He believed God called him to it, and the way he cleaned, I agree. I've cleaned houses and businesses in my life, and I would have loved doing that with him.) And then we women straightened the church each week.
The only thing we didn't have was a choir, and there was a good reason for that, Each one of us had one note we could sing, and none of them matched anyone else's or carried the tune. (To this day, when we hear truly terrible singing we want to sign the person up for the Promise Choir. lol)

But it is possible. It needs to be a group effort, and people have to give tithe, or whatever they can afford, assuming the church building needs those pesky little things like heat, electricity, and the mortgage paid.

Ends up we had to leave, and then one of the elders. since that was 1/3rd of the income, they had to sell it shortly after that.

 

[maxwel]

Our pastor is retiring after 25 years of faithful service to our congregation. He trained up many young men in our +-180 member body, who have now gone on to pastor other churches. It is a small church, but a very active and growing church.

If your pastor "is" retiring, as in still future tense, then you need to ask your pastor.

Your pastor should have thought about this, and made some kind of plan.

You're here asking for "biblical advice", and there IS NO ONE who is biblically minded and better acquainted with your predicament than your PASTOR.
You should talk to HIM.

 

[SolidGround]

If your pastor "is" retiring, as in still future tense, then you need to ask your pastor.

Your pastor should have thought about this, and made some kind of plan.

You're here asking for "biblical advice", and there IS NO ONE who is biblically minded and better acquainted with your predicament than your PASTOR.
You should talk to HIM.

He technically retired last month, but has been serving in certain capacities for the past 3 weeks. He will be moving to Toronto in a few days (his home town).

The current plan is to have the deacons fill in for the counseling and discipleship, and have a "pulpit supply" (which means imported preachers from the denominational convention/ those who are qualified and volunteer) until a new pastor is found.

Most of what I was mulling over was whether a congregation needs to have an individual as it's shepherd, or if the deacons could collectively fill the implied roles of pastorship.

For a long time now, I have recognized that "pastors" are generally forced to also be preachers, directors, counselors, mentors, disciplers, and stewards within the assembly... rather than just one role, they are forced to put on many hats.
Very few are able to balance all these.

 

[Jeff_56]

If your pastor "is" retiring, as in still future tense, then you need to ask your pastor.

Your pastor should have thought about this, and made some kind of plan.

You're here asking for "biblical advice", and there IS NO ONE who is biblically minded and better acquainted with your predicament than your PASTOR.
You should talk to HIM.

oh, really?


(ask JESUS; even approach the FATHER'S THRONE and seek the FATHER DIRECTLY)

be aware, A LOT WILL CHANGE, if you do...... (it took 3 years in some church assemblies)

 

[valiant]

He technically retired last month, but has been serving in certain capacities for the past 3 weeks. He will be moving to Toronto in a few days (his home town).

The current plan is to have the deacons fill in for the counseling and discipleship, and have a "pulpit supply" (which means imported preachers from the denominational convention/ those who are qualified and volunteer) until a new pastor is found.

Most of what I was mulling over was whether a congregation needs to have an individual as it's shepherd, or if the deacons could collectively fill the implied roles of pastorship.

For a long time now, I have recognized that "pastors" are generally forced to also be preachers, directors, counselors, mentors, disciplers, and stewards within the assembly... rather than just one role, they are forced to put on many hats.
Very few are able to balance all these.

In the New Testament leadership was shared. The elders ('bishops and deacons' - Phil 1.1) made decisions together. Those who were gifted to preach and teach did so. Others used what gifts they had. They worked as a unity. They would of course welcome outside teachers of note. Especially those with a sound teaching ministry. In those days of course they had no 'qualified' pastors.

One man ministry is not strictly Biblical, but becomes almost inevitable when one stands out from the rest. He should, however, always ensure that he takes the church with him in any decisions he makes. For it is the church leaders under the Holy Spirit who should guide the church, not just the pastor.

 

[notuptome]

Pray for the Lord to send the man He has prepared to take over the ministry in that church. God can and will provide a man for the church just seek it from Him. Gods man in Gods time. God will supply the man and the finances to support the man. Ask the Lord to raise up someone who will take the pulpit as a missions effort. There are groups that minister to the inner cities as missions fields and use missions board monies to support the pastors salaries.

If the congregation goes to the Lord in one Spirit and seeks the Lord to supply I am certain the He will hear and answer your prayer. If a man comes and the first question is how much does it pay then he's probably not the right man.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[dcontroversal]

Pray, step out on faith and let God lead the man to you that you need.....he will bless if you truly seek his will for your assembly!

 

[atwhatcost]

He technically retired last month, but has been serving in certain capacities for the past 3 weeks. He will be moving to Toronto in a few days (his home town).

The current plan is to have the deacons fill in for the counseling and discipleship, and have a "pulpit supply" (which means imported preachers from the denominational convention/ those who are qualified and volunteer) until a new pastor is found.

Most of what I was mulling over was whether a congregation needs to have an individual as it's shepherd, or if the deacons could collectively fill the implied roles of pastorship.

For a long time now, I have recognized that "pastors" are generally forced to also be preachers, directors, counselors, mentors, disciplers, and stewards within the assembly... rather than just one role, they are forced to put on many hats.
Very few are able to balance all these.

That sounds like your congregation has been sitting back and letting one guy do most of the work. There are elders and there are deacons. Each office has a purpose. It's not supposed to be one guy doing all the work.

I am now impressed your pastor survived for 25 years. I'm also surprised your church did. Yes, a church needs at least one pastor. They need more elders and deacons. Otherwise, the only people invited into your community are people who managed to keep their heads above water their whole lives, because the ones who couldn't had to leave and find a place that could help them, or they drowned and no one noticed.

If you want some Biblical base on how to run a church, I recommend Acts as the history lesson, and the complaints of Paul and the gang for notes on where people were busy thinking it was up to someone else to deal with the problems. The whole of the NT shows how church is supposed to run and even gives glimpses on how it wasn't supposed to run. (Those darn Corinthians! What were they thinking? lol)

 

[Jason0047]

Do not dangle money to bring in a Pastor. Paul preached many times and did not charge anything. I would suggest everyone in the church gets together and all holds hands and gets on their knees and prays for the right person to come to them. Let God bring you the peson you need. Trust in the Lord and wait upon Him, and the Lord will provide.

 

[cmarieh]

Do not dangle money to bring in a Pastor. Paul preached many times and did not charge anything. I would suggest everyone in the church gets together and all holds hands and gets on their knees and prays for the right person to come to them. Let God bring you the peson you need. Trust in the Lord and wait upon Him, and the Lord will provide.

Excellent Post. Jehovah Jireh, The Lord is our provider. I actually have Jewish ancestry so I was taught Jewish practices so I wanted to include this.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Our pastor is retiring after 25 years of faithful service to our congregation. He trained up many young men in our +-180 member body, who have now gone on to pastor other churches. It is a small church, but a very active and growing church.

Some of the most dedicated pastors I know didn't leave the church where they were called. Perhaps one more young man is trained up among you. You might already have your bishop, among your elders (presbyters), and you already have your deacons. That pastor wouldn't have to move, might even be a business owner, or could be on the side like Paul was. Then the church would have more time to work on making sure he continues to earn a living after taking time away to take care of his family.

I know many are supposed to answer God to pastor, but have excuses. The people eager to be pastor are the ones to beware of. One that has moved around though several churches a lot is likely to have problems, lacking in one or more of the qualifications in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
[SUP]4 [/SUP] One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
[SUP]5 [/SUP] (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

 

[Jason0047]

Excellent Post. Jehovah Jireh, The Lord is our provider. I actually have Jewish ancestry so I was taught Jewish practices so I wanted to include this.

Thank you Cmarieh.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Another point to think about in advance is be careful not to ignore a potential pastor because of youth. I know one pastor who had the oil of anointing of the Spirit poured on him in his teens, becoming a really effective pastor at about age 23. God can work wonders with such a candidate that might just need some experience with a church board, the elders, others that rule in some manner. Even if, like that man, he has a theology degree he would find a great need to be mentored by an experienced pastor or maybe a deacon that really knows his way around, knowing all your retired pastor's contacts, ongoing problems, etc.

Paul took young Timothy evangelizing, then began sending him on missions Paul couldn't personally tend to, and eventually wrote those letters of instruction as to how to put a local church together and operate it. Titus was part of that. Both were apparently settled at the church at Ephesus. Like in your nation and mine, those men ministered amid many religions, with similar magnificent temples to pagan gods like in Corinth.

It takes a lot of energy for a pastor to lead an active congregation doing multiple ministries. A good one will work with the elders in setting up delegates from the congregation to tend to each ministry arm, while the deacons continue to handle the overall business and oversight of the church, preferably under supervision of a senior pastor. We have a senior pastor who usually preaches every Sunday, but others who stand in when he is ministering elsewhere. He has groomed fine members who do a great job (all volunteer), so in the event of the need to replace him, we have several that could step right in. That's something to work on, so keep producing young ministers, having an alternate pastor candidate available.

1 Timothy 4:11-16 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] These things command and teach.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

When you deacons pray, I recommend much praying of scriptures that pertain to your church needs. Let each who prays open their Bible and pray his words. The Spirit will magnify a verse and give things to say that God wants to come out of each mouth. God's word never returns back to him void, but do perform that to which it is sent. So as an ambassador for Christ, don't neglect to employ the Word frequently. Say back to God what the Lord taught his disciples to hear and believe and do.

John 15:13-17 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] These things I command you, that ye love one another.

Ask, ask, ask, receive so your congregation can multiply ministries.

I'm saying start a revival among yourselves. You don't need a pastor or evangelist to do that. Anointed teachers should be able to spark a revival. There's something about a revival that breaks down pride, worry, sluggishness, and other attitudes that block congregational blessings. It might be that the Lord wants the congregation to increase fruit bearing, which could release the anointed pastor he has for you. I've seen that happen that way many times, in several denominations, and where I've assembled.