The Seeders of Doubt

[JesusIsAll]

There is a common thread to a lot of deception seen here. Whether those claiming sinlessness, adherence to some legalism or the word of God in scripture is corrupted, it all serves to try and create doubt.

Do you not see yourself as perfect? Are you falling short of perfection? Question your salvation. Are you not adhering to some Judaism? Question your salvation. (The cultists such that you need their cult.) Is the word of God corrupted? Question what can be believed in scripture, question you even have God's truth, question your faith. Doubt, doubt, doubt. And some of the purveyors of it are very subtle here, can post two screens of truth, with a single hook that's a lie, often only a sentence or two, out of paragraphs, the lie.

Something else evident. When you see the posters who have a one track mind, are posting the same untruths over and over, some who do nothing but specialize in a certain lie, this is either a troll and/or a tare, as a true child of God has a wider interest in the whole gospel. There are some here, if you've read them once, you've read all there is. This is a pattern of focused, intentional deception. There's also a pattern of a little scripture, between a lot of human blather, to try and tie it into knots, to try to talk you into seeing the false view. This is what cult leaders do in their writings, a little scripture, and a lot of false exegesis. They like focusing on one word or one verse, ignoring the whole of scripture, all the other verses which contradict their claims.

Is there somebody subtly seeding doubt? Is something in scripture being torn down or morphed? Specialty of the devil. DOUBT, a five letter word, worse than some four letter words.

Buyer beware. That's all.

Romans 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Galatians 2:4-5 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

 

[MarcR]

I totally agree with your post; but I want to add that in addition to doubt, they sow discord.

 

[oldthennew]

may I add here, brethren,

all is for our learning and discernment -
something that we will always be very grateful and thankful for -
for it is for our learning and growth in the body -

 

[JesusIsAll]

I totally agree with your post; but I want to add that in addition to doubt, they sow discord.

Something I've always had difficulty with is all the repetition that goes on, how some specialize in trolling certain errors that poke a stick at truth, but how the same, unchanging debate rages on. Many threads are essentially clones, repeating the same things, and from both sides of the issue. I don't know why people don't get bored with repeating themselves, to where it seems the goal actually is the discord. There are days you can look at the list of threads, and there are new threads, but with no new topics, just the same people, trying to kindle the same dispute again, merely under a new thread title.

 

[JesusIsAll]

may I add here, brethren,

all is for our learning and discernment -
something that we will always be very grateful and thankful for -
for it is for our learning and growth in the body -

Something I'd not quite been prepared for was answering for some doctrines I'd always taken as given, things no longer studied. Having to revisit those topics and the scripture is good exercise, as well as angles on scripture people sometimes raise that are contemplative and interesting. People often find another verse, going to the issues, some of us failed to think of, though on the same page. Even answering to error sharpens one, though I wish there were more variety. It's hard to find interest in some topics, though, or there are topics that only attract very bad exegesis, not fruitful discussion. For instance, being a literalist and a futurist, looking for some enlightened input, and along comes the Preterist! Still, there is the growth you mention, going against gravity many times, but it all does make you better able to answer for your faith, even when it's being shredded.

 

[wattie]

I wish people who start new threads on can you lose salvation would look at the history on this site and see that it has been thrashed out sooo many times

I am guilty of continually going to comment on these threads but then I see how many historical threads on this there are and think.. yeah.. no I'm not going to comment next time.

You can find a lot of answers without creating a new thread.

 

[JesusIsAll]

I wish people who start new threads on can you lose salvation would look at the history on this site and see that it has been thrashed out sooo many times

I am guilty of continually going to comment on these threads but then I see how many historical threads on this there are and think.. yeah.. no I'm not going to comment next time.

You can find a lot of answers without creating a new thread.

No kidding! It's the most heavily trolled issue here. There's often little to read, it can get so bad. I don't even read these Johnny-one-lie thread cloners. It's a real bore. Error is a waste of time. Fiction, nothing to learn, nothing that gets one closer to truth, no growth there, nothing worth stuffing into your brain. And what is at the heart of it? What do you know, doubt. You're not good enough. Your salvation is shaky. You need to save yourself. Lies.

 

[Angela53510]

I guess rather than complaining, we need to start threads that actually deal with Biblical topics, rather than these doctrinal errors constantly debated.

I've tried a few times, but find no one has much interest. Sadly, controversy creates interest on the internet. So I remain a follow up poster, pointing out the problems with the posts. Not exactly pro-active, I confess.

 

[JesusIsAll]

I guess rather than complaining, we need to start threads that actually deal with Biblical topics, rather than these doctrinal errors constantly debated.

I've tried a few times, but find no one has much interest. Sadly, controversy creates interest on the internet. So I remain a follow up poster, pointing out the problems with the posts. Not exactly pro-active, I confess.

I've had the same experience. Now, I will take on anybody, in a competition to see whose thread dies the fastest. But I've also done the follow-up posting, probably shouldn't expect things that interest me are necessarily going to interest others, anyway, having a tendency to get buried in some things obscure. There's also the fact there are wide differences of hermeneutics, a futurist not even on the same ground as the Preterist or fundamentalist with cultists, nothing to discuss, with no agreement on even the basics: so you can forget any depth of discussion. Controversy is most popular, but, as mentioned, repetition is nowhere. Okay. We disagree. Do we really need that new thread?!

 

[wattie]

Yeah another thing I have found is like we are saying-- the basic common ground isn't actually there.

For eg. I just assume basic christian doctrine is like: assurance of salvation.. salvation by grace thru faith in Jesus.. security of salvation.. Jesus is God..

But actually-- these beliefs are not common ground!

I do keep coming back here tho-- must be the opposition spurring me on!

 

[oldthennew]

Something I'd not quite been prepared for was answering for some doctrines I'd always taken as given, things no longer studied. Having to revisit those topics and the scripture is good exercise, as well as angles on scripture people sometimes raise that are contemplative and interesting. People often find another verse, going to the issues, some of us failed to think of, though on the same page. Even answering to error sharpens one, though I wish there were more variety. It's hard to find interest in some topics, though, or there are topics that only attract very bad exegesis, not fruitful discussion. For instance, being a literalist and a futurist, looking for some enlightened input, and along comes the Preterist! Still, there is the growth you mention, going against gravity many times, but it all does make you better able to answer for your faith, even when it's being shredded.

==========================================

Brother JesusIsAll,

your heart so many times soars above and discerns many truths...
how could we not love you and your thoughts as we do so many others here?

Spiritual courage is from our Father and we must never fail Him when He
requires us to obey - it is our responsibility to own up to His expectations.
(as we eventually discover, the years of training that He puts us through
will produce the fruits expected of us).

in scripture or doctrinal discussions it is written that the servant should not quarrel -

for the strengthening and confirming of our Faith, we should like a good and profitable
cross-examination as to the 'basic tenants of our core beliefs'.
it is written, that we should be ready to answer every man'.

so, let us pray that our desire be that our Spiritual knowledge and wisdom be
sharper than any two-edged sword' and mightier that a fiery hammer' -
may we learn to let that FLAME that God has put into our hearts burn fiercely,
always desiring more and more of the pureness and fullness of our Father's essence
and all of His qualities.

 

[JesusIsAll]

For eg. I just assume basic christian doctrine is like: assurance of salvation.. salvation by grace thru faith in Jesus.. security of salvation.. Jesus is God..

But actually-- these beliefs are not common ground!

I do keep coming back here tho-- must be the opposition spurring me on!

I know! This is what can be so mystifying, that the simple, Sunday School gospel is being incessantly debated here, the basics of the nature of faith and grace, or man's relationship to holy God, for instance. It's clear in scripture. I recall, when younger, these weren't the issues, rather complexities of prophecy and the like. And still today, in a good, Bible believing church, people are clear on these things: you never hear the stuff here in the real world. Then again, this isn't a homogeneous congregation, everybody and everything from cults to trolls mixed with fundamentalists, can't expect homogeneity, but it is perplexing how the issues mostly involve things not really issues to believers. It's hard to find an interesting conversation that doesn't involve beating the dead horse.

 

[Jeff_56]

I guess rather than complaining, we need to start threads that actually deal with Biblical topics, rather than these doctrinal errors constantly debated.

I've tried a few times, but find no one has much interest. Sadly, controversy creates interest on the internet. So I remain a follow up poster, pointing out the problems with the posts. Not exactly pro-active, I confess.

think about it a minute. maybe , yahweh willing, research later. when the disciples went to a family, person, or town,

they didn't tell them "you're doing fine, God is happy with you" (there are in Scripture a few exceptions).

they didn't tell them, "doubt what you believed".

they said, repent, turn away from your sins and turn toward yahweh , for the kingdom of heaven is close.

they still say that. (those who are not born from above yet, but are in some doctrinal type 'salvation' (they were told the 'formula' how to be saved, and liked it because it didn't require them to actually admit how bad they were, nor require a radical change in their way of life)
don't like it when "the light" set on a hill starts to shine in their direction. )

meanwhile, those in whom God's WORD is abiding, and who abide in HIS WORD,
love it. (see proverbs and revelation).

 

[JesusIsAll]

==========================================

Brother JesusIsAll,

your heart so many times soars above and discerns many truths...
how could we not love you and your thoughts as we do so many others here?

Spiritual courage is from our Father and we must never fail Him when He
requires us to obey - it is our responsibility to own up to His expectations.
(as we eventually discover, the years of training that He puts us through
will produce the fruits expected of us).

in scripture or doctrinal discussions it is written that the servant should not quarrel -

for the strengthening and confirming of our Faith, we should like a good and profitable
cross-examination as to the 'basic tenants of our core beliefs'.
it is written, that we should be ready to answer every man'.

so, let us pray that our desire be that our Spiritual knowledge and wisdom be
sharper than any two-edged sword' and mightier that a fiery hammer' -
may we learn to let that FLAME that God has put into our hearts burn fiercely,
always desiring more and more of the pureness and fullness of our Father's essence
and all of His qualities.

We have to do our part, stand for what we believe, the true gospel. Thank you for the kind thoughts, but it's not me, really it isn't, if I state something that strikes a chord. I've simply spent my life studying the word of God, believing what it actually states, in a literal fashion and seeking Bible harmony to verify truths, and learning from those giants of theology and the gospel, of Spirit-filled repute. So, I repeat what I've learned, actually have few theological thoughts my own, and would always state so, if this were the case. Also, whenever I've thought something of scripture new, I've sought verification, and, if a lot of scholars are saying something different, I go with the scholars, as they most always make better sense of the issues.

If there's any virtue, it's the word of God, and those who've faithfully taught the word of God, without which I'm a nobody. If it were my thoughts, alone, well, you've seen some of that, not exactly soaring sometimes, have mercy!

 

[Sirk]

There is a common thread to a lot of deception seen here. Whether those claiming sinlessness, adherence to some legalism or the word of God in scripture is corrupted, it all serves to try and create doubt.

Do you not see yourself as perfect? Are you falling short of perfection? Question your salvation. Are you not adhering to some Judaism? Question your salvation. (The cultists such that you need their cult.) Is the word of God corrupted? Question what can be believed in scripture, question you even have God's truth, question your faith. Doubt, doubt, doubt. And some of the purveyors of it are very subtle here, can post two screens of truth, with a single hook that's a lie, often only a sentence or two, out of paragraphs, the lie.

Something else evident. When you see the posters who have a one track mind, are posting the same untruths over and over, some who do nothing but specialize in a certain lie, this is either a troll and/or a tare, as a true child of God has a wider interest in the whole gospel. There are some here, if you've read them once, you've read all there is. This is a pattern of focused, intentional deception. There's also a pattern of a little scripture, between a lot of human blather, to try and tie it into knots, to try to talk you into seeing the false view. This is what cult leaders do in their writings, a little scripture, and a lot of false exegesis. They like focusing on one word or one verse, ignoring the whole of scripture, all the other verses which contradict their claims.

Is there somebody subtly seeding doubt? Is something in scripture being torn down or morphed? Specialty of the devil. DOUBT, a five letter word, worse than some four letter words.

Buyer beware. That's all.

Romans 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Galatians 2:4-5 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Bullies come in many forms. They even try to dress themselves in light!

 

[JesusIsAll]

Bullies come in many forms. They even try to dress themselves in light!

Nobody who isn't psycho would flock to the devil, if he appeared with horns and a pitchfork, or the whore with warts on her nose. But bullies are bullies. The truth isn't bullied. Either what is being put forth stands harmoniously with the word of God, or it doesn't, and people either have eyes to see, or they don't. Truth or lies, Spirit-filled or not, these the only issues.

 

[oldthennew]

We have to do our part, stand for what we believe, the true gospel. Thank you for the kind thoughts, but it's not me, really it isn't, if I state something that strikes a chord. I've simply spent my life studying the word of God, believing what it actually states, in a literal fashion and seeking Bible harmony to verify truths, and learning from those giants of theology and the gospel, of Spirit-filled repute. So, I repeat what I've learned, actually have few theological thoughts my own, and would always state so, if this were the case. Also, whenever I've thought something of scripture new, I've sought verification, and, if a lot of scholars are saying something different, I go with the scholars, as they most always make better sense of the issues.

If there's any virtue, it's the word of God, and those who've faithfully taught the word of God, without which I'm a nobody. If it were my thoughts, alone, well, you've seen some of that, not exactly soaring sometimes, have mercy!

===============================================================
JesusIsAll,

beware of the BATTLE of the scholars, for in the end the winners may be the losers and the losers
may be the winners.

 

[JesusIsAll]

===============================================================
JesusIsAll,

beware of the BATTLE of the scholars, for in the end the winners may be the losers and the losers
may be the winners.

True, one must carefully choose their scholars. But, also, if you're born again of the Spirit and when you've studied scripture, a lot, and you hear a preacher or teacher, or read their commentaries, and you can find little to nothing you can prove wrong from them by the word of God, and they even have that Spirit-filled way about them, like three degrees and humility, before God and man; when they weave a lot of scripture into a harmonious garment that makes complete sense, you have a reliable teacher.

Always right? No, none of us. I have a small handful of disagreements I think I can make a better case for than scholars I much admire, though not involving any basic doctrines, rather a few things involving complex eschatology and the kingdom age. I have found there's great harmony on most all things in the literal interpretation camp, and great scripture harmony. When it all fits, and you're at peace with it, in your spirit, which is also the work of the Holy Spirit, when you can see error like sore thumbs, you probably have a pretty good grip on the whole gospel.

Actually, I know I whine some, but there are many here with good grips, I notice the tares a lot more noisy, more than anything just wizards behind the curtain. It's sort of like the homosexual community, maybe 2%-3%, but making a lot of noise that gets noticed. Anyway, good exegesis all comes down to scripture harmony and that truth affirmed by the Holy Spirit, which gives you eyes to see.

 

[atwhatcost]

There is a common thread to a lot of deception seen here. Whether those claiming sinlessness, adherence to some legalism or the word of God in scripture is corrupted, it all serves to try and create doubt.

Do you not see yourself as perfect? Are you falling short of perfection? Question your salvation. Are you not adhering to some Judaism? Question your salvation. (The cultists such that you need their cult.) Is the word of God corrupted? Question what can be believed in scripture, question you even have God's truth, question your faith. Doubt, doubt, doubt. And some of the purveyors of it are very subtle here, can post two screens of truth, with a single hook that's a lie, often only a sentence or two, out of paragraphs, the lie.

Something else evident. When you see the posters who have a one track mind, are posting the same untruths over and over, some who do nothing but specialize in a certain lie, this is either a troll and/or a tare, as a true child of God has a wider interest in the whole gospel. There are some here, if you've read them once, you've read all there is. This is a pattern of focused, intentional deception. There's also a pattern of a little scripture, between a lot of human blather, to try and tie it into knots, to try to talk you into seeing the false view. This is what cult leaders do in their writings, a little scripture, and a lot of false exegesis. They like focusing on one word or one verse, ignoring the whole of scripture, all the other verses which contradict their claims.

Is there somebody subtly seeding doubt? Is something in scripture being torn down or morphed? Specialty of the devil. DOUBT, a five letter word, worse than some four letter words.

Buyer beware. That's all.

Romans 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Galatians 2:4-5 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

I am a gardener who really needs some time and energy to sow some seeds in my garden. (Those bunching onions and carrots won't be growing, unless I sow the seeds and I should have sowed them two weeks ago.)

But being a gardener, and, of course, plagued by weeds, I've noticed something about seeds. Sooner or later you can tell if what's growing came from good seeds or from a wind blowing a weed by.

Add to that, a quarter of my garden is wildflowers, which, honestly just look like weeds until I let them bloom. I have two kinds of wildflowers in my garden -- ones intentionally sown years ago that have volunteered each year, and wind-blown one. You'll recognize the wind-blown ones by other names -- dandelions, clover, morning glories, ragweed and thistle. (I still want chicory and queen anne's lace in my garden, but can't seem to figure out how to make them at home yet. lol) They're all flowers. The only difference is some are acceptable flowers and others are weeds to some.

So, I'm stuck memorizing useless weeds from wildflowers by their looks. And, I'm not really all that good at remembering looks of plants, so I often have to wait to find out if it's something I want in my garden or if it's a weed.

The thing about a weed is it takes nourishment and water from the plant that I want to grow there, so I do pull a lot of weeds. I just don't pull out all plants I don't recognize as anything in particular, until it fruits or flowers.

"Seeds of doubts?" What does doubt look like when it grows up? Bigger doubt. It's a weed. Given everyone knows you pull out a weed when you find one, why is a seed of doubt such a horrible thing? The second a believer sees it, he knows yank it. If one is a believer, the true nourishment comes through the God who doesn't bruise a reed, so, he's an excellent gardener and wouldn't let his real plants perish by some weed. He can handle weeds.

Where does it say we are the weed pullers? Isn't God perfectly capable of gardening us well? Why do you think some doubt can destroy what God has accomplished?

Remember the tares? Tares look just like the type of cereal it grws in, until it is willowed. We can't tell the difference. God can! Try not to yank out God's plants in your zeal to remove doubt. God will remove doubt, if it's real doubt and if the plants are his. After all, some really do grow on rocky soil, so we don't know which are his until it's over.

I find the assumption that we're in charge of each seed disconcerting. Trust God a bit more. He won't lose any of his by some random doubt, and that seed might not be doubt. It might be a carrot!

 

[JesusIsAll]

Remember the tares? Tares look just like the type of cereal it grws in, until it is willowed. We can't tell the difference. God can! Try not to yank out God's plants in your zeal to remove doubt. God will remove doubt, if it's real doubt and if the plants are his. After all, some really do grow on rocky soil, so we don't know which are his until it's over.

I find the assumption that we're in charge of each seed disconcerting. Trust God a bit more. He won't lose any of his by some random doubt, and that seed might not be doubt. It might be a carrot!

You're making more of it than is there, in terms of God accomplishing His will, going outside the point behind the OP. I'm merely pointing out a modus operandi of deceivers that's very real, and that goal to create doubt. Babes in Christ can be misled, though they will be alright, in the end, I neither believing the work of the Spirit is thwarted, in the final analysis. But I was just doing a little calling a spade a spade of a lot of the nonsense, intended to sow doubt, that's going on around here, but with no grand parables expressed or implied.

Also, I've no aspirations you project on me that pointing out doubt will weed the perpetrators, hardly see the OP yanking God's plants, again, just expressing an observation, something to watch out for that may prevent somebody getting sucked into some confusion and deceptive posters, no grand parables intended, take it or leave it, as is? I scroll past deceivers on the screen and avoid some things unprofitable, but to each his or her own: it's a free country. You're in charge of nothing you don't wish to be charged with. Nobody is advocating this. All I'm advocating is careful discernment. Okay?