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Thread: The worm that dies not

  1. #1
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    Default The worm that dies not

    In Mark 9:43-48 we read “And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”

    Their
    worm that does not die is sin. Jesus said in
    John 8:24 “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

    So the removal of
    sin is necessary so we do not die in our sins. And that is where Jesus came in for us, who also was made to be sin for us.
    2 Corinthians 5:21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”

    Which is also why I believe Jesus is shown as a
    worm in
    Psalm 22:6 “But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.”

    Psalm 69:9 “For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.”

    Our old
    sinful man is to be crucified with Jesus, thus destroying the body of sin.
    Romans 6:6 “Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”

    Sin is shown as red, or crimson.
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    Senior Member WebersHome's Avatar
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    †. Mark 9:47-48 . . If your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out. It is better to
    enter the kingdom of God half blind than to have two eyes and be thrown
    into hell; where the worm never dies and the fire never goes out.

    Jesus Christ's caution and warning about the fire and worms didn't reveal
    anything new. He simply reiterated information that had already been
    released by an Old Testament prophet roughly 700 years before the Lord
    was born.

    †. Isa 66:22-24 . . All humanity will come to worship me from week to week
    and from month to month. And as they go out, they will see the dead bodies
    of those who have rebelled against me. For the worms that devour them will
    never die, and the fire that burns them will never go out. All who pass by
    will view them with utter loathing.

    ==========================================
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  3. #3
    psalm6819
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    Default Re: The worm that dies not

    Research tola worm
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    Senior Member MarcR's Avatar
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    Default Re: The worm that dies not

    תוֺלַ֣עַת 'tola'at' is the feminine of תוֺלָע 'tola', the crimson maggot. This is the maggot of the carnivorous biting fly.
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    MarcR



    Blessings on you! (Nu 6:24-26)


    Col 3:16-17
    16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
    17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

    KJV

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    Default Re: The worm that dies not

    Isaiah 1:18
    Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
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    Default Re: The worm that dies not

    Psa 22:6 But I am a worm, H8438 and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
    Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, H8438 they shall be as wool.
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  7. #7
    Least
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    Default Re: The worm that dies not

    Leviticus 14:49 And he shall take to cleanse the house two birds, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop:

    The word "scarlet," in that verse has the same definition as "worm," in other passages:

    from 03216 ; TWOT - 2516b; n m

    AV - scarlet 34, worm 8, crimson 1; 43

    That was for the cleansing leprosy.

    A lot of interesting things about the "tola worm" or "scarlet worm."

    I found this article about it:

    (It's very interesting that they teach about the Tola worm along with the Priestly garments.) (This is something I have never heard of.)

    I also took note that they haven't held such an event in "perhaps 2000 years."

    Exodus 39:1 And of the blue, and purple, and scarlet, they made cloths of service, to do service in the holy place, and made the holy garments for Aaron; as the LORD commanded Moses.

    The word "scarlet," in that verse has the same definition as the one posted above.

    https://www.templeinstitute.org/tola-at_shani.htm

    ON THE AFTERNOON OF THE 13TH OF TAMMUZ (JULY 16TH), the Temple Institute organized an historic event: the first tola'at shani - crimson worm - harvest in the land of Israel in perhaps 2000 years. The location of the harvest was the Samarian hilltop village of Neve Tsuf. The immediate purpose for the event was the need to gather the crimson worms for the purpose of creating the avnet - the sixteen meter long belt for the bigdei kehuna - the priestly garments now being produced by the Temple Institute. The long-term goal was to educate a new generation about the elusive tola'at shani, how to harvest it, and how to produce from it the crimson dye prescribed in the Torah for a number of Temple related purposes, including the priests' avnet - belts, the scarlet wool tied onto the se'ir l'azazel - the scapegoat - on Yom Kippur, and one of the essential ingredients for producing the ashes of the red heifer.
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    Default Re: The worm that dies not

    There is also rams skins dyed red for a covering of the tabernacle, and also this sign with Jesus...

    Matthew 27:28
    And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe.

    A lot of cool signs in scripture.
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  9. #9
    DesiredHaven
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    Default Re: The worm that dies not

    Mat 27:28 And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe.

    Which seems to speak to this
     

    Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

    Then they take that which they put on him (off) and put his own raiment back on him.

    Mat 27:31 And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him.


    So if they (at first removed his own ranment) put on a scarlet robe then took off the scarlet robe (they put on him) the purple robe was put back on as here...
     

    John 19:2 And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and they put on him a purple robe,
     
    Where it says...

    John 19:5 Then came Jesus forth, wearing the crown of thorns, and the purple robe. And Pilate saith unto them, Behold the man!

     
    Which seems to agree in this...

    2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


    The scarlet robe being added to him (by them) seems to be signifying (in type) their own sins (that be as scarlet) shall be white as snow (in him) though God making a shew (by these) openly (in this manner).

    Now I got worms to deal with? LOL

    Thats one of those things I skipped around (no touchy lol)


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    Default Re: The worm that dies not

    Here's a cool one, haven't quite figured it out all the way yet. But the manna (Like Jesus, Manna from heaven) was not to be left till the next morning, or it got worms in it and stank

    Exodus 16:15-2015 And when the children of Israel saw it, they said one to another, It is manna: for they wist not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the Lord hath given you to eat.
    16 This is the thing which the Lord hath commanded, Gather of it every man according to his eating, an omer for every man, according to the number of your persons; take ye every man for them which are in his tents.
    17 And the children of Israel did so, and gathered, some more, some less.
    18 And when they did mete it with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; they gathered every man according to his eating.
    19 And Moses said, Let no man leave of it till the morning.

    20 Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto Moses; but some of them left of it until the morning, and it bred worms, and stank: and Moses was wroth with them."

    Also notice same command with the Passover lamb....

    Exodus 12:9-10
    9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof.
    10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.

    But I haven't figured out what leaving it till next morning might symbolize, got any ideas?
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  11. #11
    Senior Member MarcR's Avatar
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    Default Re: The worm that dies not

    Quote Originally Posted by InSpiritInTruth View Post
    Here's a cool one, haven't quite figured it out all the way yet. But the manna (Like Jesus, Manna from heaven) was not to be left till the next morning, or it got worms in it and stank

    Exodus 16:15-2015 And when the children of Israel saw it, they said one to another, It is manna: for they wist not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the Lord hath given you to eat.
    16 This is the thing which the Lord hath commanded, Gather of it every man according to his eating, an omer for every man, according to the number of your persons; take ye every man for them which are in his tents.
    17 And the children of Israel did so, and gathered, some more, some less.
    18 And when they did mete it with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; they gathered every man according to his eating.
    19 And Moses said, Let no man leave of it till the morning.

    20 Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto Moses; but some of them left of it until the morning, and it bred worms, and stank: and Moses was wroth with them."

    Also notice same command with the Passover lamb....

    Exodus 12:9-10
    9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof.
    10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.

    But I haven't figured out what leaving it till next morning might symbolize, got any ideas?

    Hording it---not trusting God to provide more.
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    MarcR



    Blessings on you! (Nu 6:24-26)


    Col 3:16-17
    16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
    17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

    KJV

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    Default Re: The worm that dies not

    Quote Originally Posted by MarcR View Post
    Hording it---not trusting God to provide more.
    Yeah, I can see that with the manna in the wilderness, but what about with the Passover Lamb (and Jesus, the true Manna from heaven)?

  13. #13
    DesiredHaven
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    Default Re: The worm that dies not

    Yea, you are showing the manna a type of bread of heaven and not leaving it to morning, but the same is shown in feast of the passover and in numbers where it speaks of not breaking a bone of the same (also in Christ)

    Between the blood of my sacrifice and leaven and the passover and the morning her
    e

    Exodus 34:25 Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven;
    neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.

    Leaven Christ our passover here

    1 Cr 5:7
    Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened.
    For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

    Then here of the morning and of the bone of it (and of Christ)

    Numbers 9:12
    They shall leave none of it unto the morning,
    nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it.

    John 19:36
    For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled,
    A bone of him shall not be broken. (Psalm 34:20?)

    I wasnt getting the morning part attached to these

    He is the MORNING star... does that count for anything in this matter?

    Its 3 AM in the MORNNG here ...I will (Lord willing) look at this tommorow (or rather, later today). This was just a quick peek, so cant tell you but a good question maybe someone else could better answer that.

    Catch you tommorow Bro
    (wheres least when you need her?) LOL



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  14. #14
    Least
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    Default Re: The worm that dies not

    I don't think I'll be much help DH, lol but I'm enjoying looking into these things.

    I can see how marcR's post ties to the wilderness manna.

    The manna was their provision and it sustained them for 40 years in the wilderness.

    God said that he would test and prove them by the amount that they took.

    I just realized, while looking at that verse that God said, "That I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no." He wasn't testing them by just the amount that they took, (although that was the test) but He was testing their faithfulness and obedience.

    Exodus 16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

    Jesus is our provision (the true bread) (John 6), and considering the poor in spirit in the beatitudes, the people in the wilderness completely relied on God daily for that manna. In that same way, we have to be completely reliant on Jesus for our daily bread. "Give us this day our daily bread."

    I can see greed and fear tied to the wilderness account where more was taken, but I'm not sure how or if, in a "heavenly" sense, the specific amount applies? Maybe someone who's studied this more in depth will share.

    Psalms 132:12 If thy children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore.
    Psalms 132:13 For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.
    Psalms 132:14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.
    Psalms 132:15 I will abundantly bless her provision: I will satisfy her poor with bread.
    Psalms 132:16 I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout aloud for joy.


    That last verse reminded me of the post about the stars singing.
    Last edited by Least; May 18th, 2015 at 05:49 AM.
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    Default Re: The worm that dies not

    The worm is rotting flesh with maggots eating it out. Jesus is talking about if it really meant loosing a hand stopped you sinning or being blind, would it not be better to loose these things than go to hell. But this is an obvious contradiction.
    The root of sin is desire out of control, used inappropriately, and the means changes nothing. But it makes you think. How important do you take sin or failure, and what practical things are you doing to avoid it?

    Nothing Jesus says should be taken at face value, it is often a request to go deeper, to work things through and out. The pharisees cared little about sin, only show. But Jesus is saying you should care very much about it, and if nothing else works, one needs to get the right perspective. Sin can be conquered, nothing is static, life goes on. Taking discipline approaches, avoiding practical failure by just not going there works. We are machines, we reap what we sow, weaknesses have to be reprogrammed, discipline put in place, appropriate strategies worked out. What is at stake is your life, so nothing serious then...

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    Default Re: The worm that dies not

    ISAIAH 66:23.

    And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another,
    all flesh shall come to worship before Me, says the Lord.

    although new moon can be rendered 'month', according to Strongs - Sabbath is only rendered as
    either the weekly Sabbath or one of the Holy Days.

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    Senior Member WebersHome's Avatar
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    †. Isa 66:22-24 . . As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will
    endure before me; declares the Lord, so will your name and descendants
    endure. From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another,
    all mankind will come and bow down before me; says the Lord. And they will
    go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me;
    their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be
    loathsome to all mankind.

    If the new heavens and the new earth are a literal prediction, and if all
    mankind will come and bow down before the Lord is a literal prediction, then
    I see no reasonable justification for disbelieving that the fire, the worm, the
    dead bodies, and the loathing aren't literal predictions too.

    Apparently the fate of the Lord's opponents will be a tourist attraction; sort
    of like the La Brea Tar Pits museum in Los Angeles where the remains of
    pre-historic beasts, excavated from the area's bitumen deposits, are on
    display.

    ======================================
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    Default Re: The worm that dies not

    To the OP. Notice that the worm is possessive. "Their worm."

    I have studied this to a certain extent. "Their worm" goes with them into hell where the fire is not quenched. It is interesting that the color of red is within this worm, and that Psalm 22 talks about it in comparison to Jesus in that prophecy. "I am a worm."

    "Their worm," when digging into it, is hell even without the fire. The very thought of "their worm" (maybe even some who read this) causes mega discomfort when thinking about it in reality, because it's certainly real, or will be.

    This is what "their worm" in hell represents. "Their worm" is closely linked to being constantly reminded of what should have been repented of, but there will be no place found for repentance. It will not let go for eternity.

    Hebrews 12:15-17
    15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
    16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
    17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

    We see this root of bitterness see in CC every day, one way or another. Usually it comes in the form of debunking God's law, wanting it to vanish with any accountability on our part. What's the purpose? To drive a wedge between God's children. If we don't repent now, what will the end result be?

    "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"

    If the gospel demands me to negate certain parts of God's word, then I am following the wrong god who continues to change. This is more serious than we can spiritual visualize, as it seems.

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    Senior Member MarcR's Avatar
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    Default Re: The worm that dies not

    Quote Originally Posted by InSpiritInTruth View Post
    Yeah, I can see that with the manna in the wilderness, but what about with the Passover Lamb (and Jesus, the true Manna from heaven)?

    Ps 16:9-10
    9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
    10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
    KJV

    Meat left overnight without refrigeration begins to spoil.


    Mt 26:27-28
    27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
    28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
    KJV


    That Holy thing was NOT to be rejected
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    MarcR



    Blessings on you! (Nu 6:24-26)


    Col 3:16-17
    16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
    17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

    KJV

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    Senior Member crossnote's Avatar
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    Default Re: The worm that dies not

    Many commentators say that Mk 9:44 is not found in the 'better' manuscripts.
    I don't know about worms but I know some threads never die due to people's
    vain imaginations
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