Works vs. Works

[mailmandan]

But if one don't have time and die before baptism, like a thief on the cross, he goes to paradise, because baptism is only one of the fruit, it is product of salvation not cause of salvation.

Amen to that! In Matthew 27:39-43 (the story of the thief on the cross), we see that those who passed by, along with the chief priests scribes and elders blashemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus and EVEN THE ROBBERS WHO WERE CRUCIFIED WITH HIM REVILED HIM WITH THE SAME THING. Yet, moments later, we see that one of the thieves had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved (Luke 23:40-43). Now how many good works did that thief accomplish on the cross in those final moments before he died? There was no opportunity to water baptize him, yet he was still saved. If the thief would have been taken off the cross and allowed to live, I believe the thief would have been water baptized and you would have seen a changed life in the thief demonstrated by good works, but the point is that he was saved through faith, apart from whatever works he may have accomplished later but did not have the opportunity to accomplish.

 

[Jackson123]

Amen to that! In Matthew 27:39-43 (the story of the thief on the cross), we see that those who passed by, along with the chief priests scribes and elders blashemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus and EVEN THE ROBBERS WHO WERE CRUCIFIED WITH HIM REVILED HIM WITH THE SAME THING. Yet, moments later, we see that one of the thieves had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved (Luke 23:40-43). Now how many good works did that thief accomplish on the cross in those final moments before he died? There was no opportunity to water baptize him, yet he was still saved. If the thief would have been taken off the cross and allowed to live, I believe the thief would have been water baptized and you would have seen a changed life in the thief demonstrated by good works, but the point is that he was saved through faith, apart from whatever works he may have accomplished later but did not have the opportunity to accomplish.

Yup.If salvation by work, how much work we need to save?

 

[know1]

As I already explained. In Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9 to verse 10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness and with the mouth,confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together.

In a sense, that is correct. But clearly, believing alone will not do the job, it must be accompanied by the confession.The subject of Romans 10:8-10 is about "the word of faith", and explaining how it works in verses 9 and 10.Please note that salvation is not made until the person both believes and confesses. Salvation is not made until AFTER one confesses Jesus as lord. Believing alone, without the work of the confession, is dead or useless. According to these verses, though one is righteous when they believe, they are not saved until after they confess Jesus as their Lord. Yes, they are together, but neither the believing or the confessing will be of any use to the person, until they both believe and confess, just like it says. That is how words of faith work. If one confesses without believing, they are not saved. Same as believing without confessing. Nothing happens. In order for one to be saved, they must both believe and confess. Again, that is how word of faith works. The confession is shown to be the work of faith written not only here, but in Hebrews and James.Heb 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. Heb 11:20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come. Heb 11:21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff. Heb 11:22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones. 2Co 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; None of these confessions had to do with their salvation. For indeed, salvation was not introduced until after Jesus came and was raised from the dead. And there confession had nothing to do with good works. By faith, Joshua commanded both the sun and moon to be still, until they killed their enemy. And Jesus cursed a fig tree in faith that it died.Faith isn't about good works. The unbelievers can and do the same good things/works as the Christian's good works. Such as giving to the poor, feeding the hungry, visiting the sick and widows, and the like. These do not demonstrate a Christian's faith in the least. These are all acts that are done in the flesh and can be done by any none believer. The words of faith written above, have nothing to do with good works, works of the law, or of the flesh. They stand alone as works of faith. They believed and therefore spoke, then God caused it to manifest in the natural.Faith is not a general, all encompassing thing, like saying, "I'm a Christian". Faith is specific, directed, and sent verbally. It is based on believing and trusting in God to perform His word/truth/promise to you personally, then acting on that belief. It is not in the future tense, like hoping, but in the present. The manifestation of it is future, but the believing is in the here and now. Like God, faith calls things which be not as though it already is.There is a faith for salvation, and there is a faith for healing, and another faith for casting out demons, and so on.For example, a word of faith or faith statement would be something like saying, "I asked God for my healing, and since all the promises in Christ Jesus are yeah and amen, I thank you Father for healing me by and according to your word. Thank you Jesus for healing me. I am healed, (present tense) for it is written, 'Himself took my infirmities and bare my diseases'." When they believe they are healed and say it with their mouth, healing will take place. This you cannot do with your own power, strengths, or abilities, like you can with the good works spoken of in the book of Romans and Ephesians. Going to church, helping the helpless, preaching the gospel, getting baptized, and so on, are good works, but they do not justify, nor do they say you are a born again child of God. They can't save you, nor can they cause you to loose your salvation if you don't do them. The kind of works Paul was talking about, are the kind that people try to do to earn their way into heaven by their good deeds/works. As you very well know, salvation cannot be earned, nor is it based on a merit system.James is talking about an entirely different kind of work. This has nothing to do with good works or works of the law or of the flesh, just to prove you are a Christian, or to show that you have faith. The believing and work come before the fruit. The work James is talking about are the same kind Jesus mentions that He did.Joh10:32 Jesus answered them, Manygoodworkshave I shewed youfrom my Father; for which of thoseworksdo ye stone me?
Joh14:12Verily,verily, I say unto you, Hethat believeth on me, theworks that I do shall he do also; and greaterworksthanthese shall he do;because I go unto my Father.

Not according to Paul. You are teaching something that directly conflicts with scripture. Read Romans 4:2-3 again. We are not saved BY works but FOR good works. One cannot produce corresponding works apart from receiving Christ through faith and the new birth. You have this backwards. Faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation saves, then the works follow. James is talking about faith that claims to be genuine but "remains alone" in producing works and demonstrates that it's dead. Genuine faith results in producing works.

This is perhaps the crux of the subject matter in discussion. This one and the one below.First you are lumping works of the law and works of faith together, as though they are one in the same. They are not. If that were true, then both James 2 and Eph 2 directly conflict with one another. For one say you cannot be saved by works and the other says your faith is dead or without effect without it. Works of the law is something that you can do yourself, i.e., give to the poor, visit the widow, ...etc.Works of faith are things said and/or done, that agree or are conjoin with your faith. The manifestation of the work of faith is the fruit that it produced, such as healing, deliverance, walking on water, stilling storms, raising people from the dead, and so on. The desired end result is the fruit, not the work. The work is what you do in faith for the person to get healed or walk on water, and the like.But that's not the only kind of fruit Christians produce. Just as faith can produce good fruit, it can and does produce bad as well. Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: Pro 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof. Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. Mat 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. Christians have cursed their lives and that of their children's, by speaking unfavorably toward or against them or their children, for out of the abundance of their heart their mouth spoke and brought forth evil things to come to pass.Here again, you see the kind of seed in their heart, the work of the seed that caused them to speak, followed by the fruit, which would be the end result of the words they spoke. Those that had an abundance of good seed in their heart, brought forth good things, based on what they said and/or acted on, which is the work, and those that had the bad seed planted in their heart in abundance, brought forth bad or evil things. Notice how Jesus differentiates between the speaking and that which is brought forth. That which is brought forth is the fruit. Whether it be good or bad will depend on what's in their heart in abundance and proceeded out of their mouths. For example, they may feel sick, and so they say, "I don't feel good. I must have a cold or flu or cancer." What they did was, put the law of faith to work, that Jesus spoke of in Mk 11:23, against themselves or a loved one by believing, agreeing with, and confessing the symptom. Just like they did with salvation. When you believe, agree with the word of God, and confess Jesus as your personal savior, you are then saved. It is the law of faith, and it won't work without some type of corresponding work. Just like James said.

Works of faith "works produced out of faith" are good works, which cannot be dissected from the moral aspect of the law. All throughout scripture we see that faith is faith and works are works. Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit demonstrates that there is no root. People error by teaching that we are saved through faith AND works and that faith "is" works.

I never said, nor suggested that faith was or is a work. They are distinctly different and separate. This I have been saying from the beginning.There is faith and there are works and then there is the fruit produced by the conjunction of faith and works.Here again, you lumped works of faith with good works, as though they are the same thing. And because you believe this, you lump works of faith together with the fruit, as though the two of these are the same. James clearly make a distinction between faith and works. Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. As does Paul in Romans 10.Jesus clearly distinguishes the difference between works and fruit, as pointed out above.Faith is not the seed, as the hearing is not the work.Jesus clearly states in the sower sowing seed that the word sown is the seed.Luk 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. And how does faith come? By hearing the word of God.So it is the seed or word one hears and understands that gets planted in their heart. And this same said seed, produces faith in their heart. When they truly believe something, they will begin to talk about it, and when they do, it will produce or bring forth fruit. If the word they receive is of God, it will produce good fruit, such as salvation, healing, casting out devils, commanding storms to be still, walking on water, raising the dead, and the like. Signs following. Again, this has nothing to do with doing good works or things like giving to the poor, going to church, and so on.If it is not God's pure and holy word that the person agrees with and receives in their heart, and speaks it out their mouth, then it will produce bad or evil fruit.Again, this is how both faith and its reciprocal, fear, work. Both work the same way, only faith mainly produces good fruit and is of God, where fear is of the devil, producing evil fruit of weaknesses, failures, deaths, and destruction.Again, you are associating good works with salvation only, and that these same said good works are a result of their salvation, when any nonbeliever can do the same things. Look at the gay and lesbian community. They can be some of the nicest people, doing the same said good works as Christians, yet on another side, the fruit they produce toward each other is disgusting, ill-reputed, and sinful, which in turn produces sicknesses and diseases, as many forms of sin do.

Are you trying to imply that Peter was still lost until he acted on his faith in this situation and the man was healed? Was Peter saved by this works or did this work give evidence to Peter's faith that was already established?

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Peter was lost until he acted on his faith in that situation.NOT.Sir, how could you have so missed what I said in the previous post? What Peter did has absolutely nothing to do with salvation. For it wasn't about the man's or Peter's salvation, it was about and for the man's healing. Peter's faith was already established, and that is why the man got healed. Peter used the faith of Christ in him, along with the man's expection to receive something from him, and that is how the man got his healing. It had nothing to do with Peter's salvation or the man's. The man didn't get healed because Peter was saved. It was because Peter used the faith that was already in him, by directing it specifically at the problem. Even as God sent His word and healed them, we too are to do the same thing and send God's word in faith, for healing. Even as God said, so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth, it shall not return to me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it, we are to do the same, using God's word or promises. Peter's words and actions in faith combined, are what healed the man.As you know, life in this world goes beyond salvation. Our walk with God doesn't just stop once saved. Neither should our knowledge and faith stop growing and expanding. We should move from faith to faith. We have to trust God for more than just saving our souls. We need protection, healing, needs met, good health, knowledge, gifts, and so on.All these things and more, we need to apply our faith, in order to receive them from God.Peter simply applied his faith, along with that of the man, to produce fruit only works of faith could do. It was Peter's faith in action that raised the man up, that caused the hand of God to move on behalf of Peter.You need to think beyond salvation. Hebrews says it is impossible to please God apart from faith, and James says let not that man think that he should receive ANYTHING of the Lord if he wavers, even the slightest bit, in his faith, like Peter did when walking on the water and started to sink. The works of faith James and I are talking about, will cause us to walk as Jesus did and do the same works He did, like feed a multitude from a few loaves of bread and fishes, and go on to do greater works. Going to church, listen to a sermons, say God bless you, and the like, are for those who wish to stay a baby in Christ. People followed Christ mainly because of the signs, wonders, and miracles that followed Him. We are to do the same and not just talk about it.

 

[know1]

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5) yet genuine faith is evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). It's just that simple. This is the balance that you seem to have OUT OF BALANCE.

Sir, the proof is in the pudding. If what I say is out of balance, then I would not have signs following. For God does not watch over a lie of the devil, but the truth of His word.Specifically, what kind of good works or signs are you talking about, that proves or gives evidence to genuine faith? What are some of the determining factors that say your faith is alive and of God? Do the works you do, show or prove you are born again and believe on the name of Jesus? Are you referring to works that are a result of the fruit of the Spirit, such as love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance?You can't be born again if you don't have the truth of God's word in your heart, for that is how we are born again and receive both Christ's flesh and blood. Without the truth of the gospel in your heart, Jesus said, you have no life in you, because we are born again BY the word of God. It is written, except you eat Jesus' flesh and drink His blood you have no life in you, and seeing that Jesus is the Word of God and the Truth, without Christ abiding in your heart through the truth of the gospel in faith, you have not eaten Jesus' flesh or drank His blood. Therefore, if the person has not received Christ personally through the truth of the gospel, though he call and see himself as a Christian, he has no life in him. No life means, no salvation.I should interject here concerning the verses that you listed in prior posts. It should be understood, concerning the believing to be the only prerequisite for salvation, that it cannot contradict other scripture, but must agree with them.So lets take a look at John. Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. That sounds pretty simple. No confession necessary. Just believe on Jesus' name. No problem.Now let's take a look at other verses that give examples of what it means to believe on His name.Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word [preached] with signs following. Amen. Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works that these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. That doesn't describe very many Christians.Also, all the works Jesus did, either involved Him and/or the other person's faith who either said and/or did something for it to manifest.

 

[know1]

No. the Bible clearly states that Abrahams FAITH was accounted to him as righteousness acceptable to God

4Then the word of the Lord came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir.” 5He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring[SUP]d[/SUP] be.”

6Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness. Genesis 15

no works...just faith

You mean, just believing, not faith. There is a difference.
You can do absolutely nothing to believe, but you have to do something to have faith.
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
I keep seeing the same thing when I read these verses, telling me that the scripture wasn't fulfilled until Abraham offered up his son, and that a man is justified by works of faith and not by faith alone.
Like I said, I didn't write it, but I can read.
Now, I don't know at this time, what the difference is between righteousness and justification, and I have looked up both definitions, but in Genesis, it says Abraham's believing was accounted to him for righteousness. But, as in Romans 10, James says believing is imputed to a man for righteousness, but by the works of faith, it is to a man's justification.
Romans says the same thing.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Nothing happens until the confession is made.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
I think there is a difference between righteousness and justification in the eyes of God. Like that of sins, offenses, transgressions, iniquities, and trespasses.
From what I see, when we believe the truth of the gospel, we are made righteous in God's eyes, but justified through faith.

 

[Ahwatukee]

You mean, just believing, not faith. There is a difference.
You can do absolutely nothing to believe, but you have to do something to have faith.
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
I keep seeing the same thing when I read these verses, telling me that the scripture wasn't fulfilled until Abraham offered up his son, and that a man is justified by works of faith and not by faith alone.
Like I said, I didn't write it, but I can read.
Now, I don't know at this time, what the difference is between righteousness and justification, and I have looked up both definitions, but in Genesis, it says Abraham's believing was accounted to him for righteousness. But, as in Romans 10, James says believing is imputed to a man for righteousness, but by the works of faith, it is to a man's justification.
Romans says the same thing.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Nothing happens until the confession is made.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
I think there is a difference between righteousness and justification in the eyes of God. Like that of sins, offenses, transgressions, iniquities, and trespasses.
From what I see, when we believe the truth of the gospel, we are made righteous in God's eyes, but justified through faith.

Greetings Know1,

The scripture below is an excerpt from Acts 10:23-48 when Peter's was sent to Cornelius' household where he preached the gospel to them:

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in languages and praising God. Then Peter said, “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days."

Based on the scripture above, please find me any good works that anyone in Cornelius' household performed in order receive the Holy Spirit. You won't find any. For as the scripture states, while Peter was still speaking, the Holy Spirit fell upon those in his household so that they spoke in languages and prophesied and that without being baptized, feeding or clothing the poor, keeping the Sabbath, abstaining from certain foods, keeping the ten commandments or anything else. Below, at the counsel of Jerusalem, Peter describes how all of those in Cornelius household were saved:

"God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. "

They simply believed in the Lord Jesus whom Peter was preaching that he paid for their sins and that's it.

 

[KennethC]

Please, please, please in all love I pray that people would read and understand the context of Acts 10-15.

Those chapters are not to be taken as the standard by which the Holy Spirit is given to believers, as the context all the way through those chapters was the Lord our God showing contentious Jewish believers that Gentiles have the same right to salvation through Jesus Christ as them.

The actual order is mentioned in Acts 2:38, 3:19, and again in Acts 19:2-6 !!!

 

[Jackson123]

You mean, just believing, not faith. There is a difference.
You can do absolutely nothing to believe, but you have to do something to have faith.
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
eing the same thiJas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
I keep seng when I read these verses, telling me that the scripture wasn't fulfilled until Abraham offered up his son, and that a man is justified by works of faith and not by faith alone.
Like I said, I didn't write it, but I can read.
Now, I don't know at this time, what the difference is between righteousness and justification, and I have looked up both definitions, but in Genesis, it says Abraham's believing was accounted to him for righteousness. But, as in Romans 10, James says believing is imputed to a man for righteousness, but by the works of faith, it is to a man's justification.
Romans says the same thing.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Nothing happens until the confession is made.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
I think there is a difference between righteousness and justification in the eyes of God. Like that of sins, offenses, transgressions, iniquities, and trespasses.
From what I see, when we believe the truth of the gospel, we are made righteous in God's eyes, but justified through faith.

[h=3]Is work here mean fruit?[/h]
Jesus said if branch not abide to the vine it will not bear fruit.

branch can not bear fruit of itself.

If it require work before save then no body save.

One must invite Jesus first/abide/save first before bear fruit/good work.

Jame agree with Jesus and he saw a people claim to be christian/have a faith in Jesus than he said it.

work is just a prove of faith/fruit of faith in Jesus not the requirement of salvation.

The thief on the cross save before he do a lot of good work. He only have a little time for it. '
go to paradise not purgatory. And Jesus never mention purgatory at all.

​

 

[mailmandan]

In a sense, that is correct. But clearly, believing alone will not do the job, it must be accompanied by the confession.The subject of Romans 10:8-10 is about "the word of faith", and explaining how it works in verses 9 and 10.Please note that salvation is not made until the person both believes and confesses. Salvation is not made until AFTER one confesses Jesus as lord.

It will be accompanied by the confession and both believing and confessing are chronologically together. As I already explained. In Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9 to verse 10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness and with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Now what about someone who is unable to speak? (moot) How can they confess with their mouth? Such a person would remain lost according to your interpretation of Romans 10:9,10. Notice believes unto righteousness = saved. That does not equate to believes but is still lost until one confesses tomorrow or next week. If confessing is an additional requirement to become saved "after" we believe (tomorrow or next week) then how do you explain these verses? John 3:16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 4:5 etc.. We are saved the moment that one BELIEVES. It's UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Believing alone, without the work of the confession, is dead or useless.

Believing is not alone in that sense. The word of faith is in our heart and in our mouth TOGETHER (Romans 10:8). Simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God has raised Him from the dead is not unto righteousness and merely giving lip service to the words "Jesus is Lord" is not unto salvation.

According to these verses, though one is righteous when they believe, they are not saved until after they confess Jesus as their Lord.

Righteous = saved. Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness. Where does Paul mention "additional requirements" here that must be accomplished "after" one believes in order to become saved/accounted as righteous in Romans 4:5?

Yes, they are together, but neither the believing or the confessing will be of any use to the person, until they both believe and confess, just like it says. That is how words of faith work.

The word of faith is IN OUR HEART AND IN OUR MOUTH TOGETHER. It's not believe today but are still lost until you confess tomorrow then finally saved tomorrow when you confess or vice versa. So how can one believe unto righteousness, yet remain lost until they confess later? UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS = SAVED. Believing and confessing are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together.

If one confesses without believing, they are not saved.

That would be lip service confession. 1 Corinthians 12:3 - ..no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit but anyone can simply recite those words, merely giving lip service to them. You are making this out to be more complicated than it really is.

Same as believing without confessing. Nothing happens.

The word of faith is in our heart and in our mouth TOGETHER. It's not merely one or the other. Nothing happens if one simply believes in their head and not in their heart that God has raised Him from the dead. Confessing by the Holy Spirit does not follow dead belief.

In order for one to be saved, they must both believe and confess. Again, that is how word of faith works.

In order for one to be saved, they do both believe and confess because the word of faith is in their heart and in their mouth TOGETHER. That is how the word of faith works (Romans 10:8).

The confession is shown to be the work of faith written not only here, but in Hebrews and James.Heb 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. Heb 11:20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come. Heb 11:21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff. Heb 11:22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones. 2Co 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; None of these confessions had to do with their salvation. For indeed, salvation was not introduced until after Jesus came and was raised from the dead. And there confession had nothing to do with good works. By faith, Joshua commanded both the sun and moon to be still, until they killed their enemy. And Jesus cursed a fig tree in faith that it died.

Notice that all of these works were done "by" or "out of faith" but they were not saved by these works. Jesus doesn't need faith in order to curse the fig tree. Jesus is God.

Faith isn't about good works.

Yet genuine faith produces good works. That is what we are saved FOR (Ephesians 2:10).

The unbelievers can and do the same good things/works as the Christian's good works. Such as giving to the poor, feeding the hungry, visiting the sick and widows, and the like. These do not demonstrate a Christian's faith in the least. These are all acts that are done in the flesh and can be done by any none believer.

The difference is that unbelievers simply conjure up these works through the flesh. They are not done out of faith. God knows our hearts.

The words of faith written above, have nothing to do with good works, works of the law, or of the flesh. They stand alone as works of faith.

Works of faith are good works which cannot be dissected from the moral aspect of the law.

They believed and therefore spoke, then God caused it to manifest in the natural.Faith is not a general, all encompassing thing, like saying, "I'm a Christian". Faith is specific, directed, and sent verbally. It is based on believing and trusting in God to perform His word/truth/promise to you personally, then acting on that belief.

Saving faith is belief, trust, reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation (Acts 10:43; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 4:5). Acting on our belief/faith "afterwards" is works and we are not saved by works/works of the law/works of faith/good works/works of righteousness which we have done.

It is not in the future tense, like hoping, but in the present. The manifestation of it is future, but the believing is in the here and now. Like God, faith calls things which be not as though it already is.There is a faith for salvation, and there is a faith for healing, and another faith for casting out demons, and so on.

There is saving faith in Christ and then there is a special endowment of faith to accomplish certain tasks in ministry. Romans 12:3 - For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. 1 Corinthians 12:9 - ..to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit.

Going to church, helping the helpless, preaching the gospel, getting baptized, and so on, are good works, but they do not justify, nor do they say you are a born again child of God.

Amen! We are not saved by good works but FOR good works (Ephesians 2:10).

They can't save you, nor can they cause you to loose your salvation if you don't do them. The kind of works Paul was talking about, are the kind that people try to do to earn their way into heaven by their good deeds/works. As you very well know, salvation cannot be earned, nor is it based on a merit system.

Salvation is certainly not attained or maintained by good works.

James is talking about an entirely different kind of work. This has nothing to do with good works or works of the law or of the flesh, just to prove you are a Christian, or to show that you have faith. The believing and work come before the fruit. The work James is talking about are the same kind Jesus mentions that He did.Joh10:32 Jesus answered them, Manygoodworkshave I shewed youfrom my Father; for which of thoseworksdo ye stone me? Joh14:12Verily,verily, I say unto you, Hethat believeth on me, theworks that I do shall he do also; and greaterworksthanthese shall he do;because I go unto my Father.

James is talking about good works. In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work/work of faith" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works/works of faith could a Christian accomplish that are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works that Christians do which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself?

 

[mailmandan]

CONTINUED...

This is perhaps the crux of the subject matter in discussion. This one and the one below.First you are lumping works of the law and works of faith together, as though they are one in the same. They are not. If that were true, then both James 2 and Eph 2 directly conflict with one another.

Works of faith are good works which cannot be dissected from the moral aspect of the law, as I showed you above. In Ephesians 2:8,9 Paul said saved through faith, not works. He did not say, saved through faith AND works of faith or saved through faith AND good works, just not works of the law as if works of faith/good works are completely detached from the moral aspect of the law. You cannot dissect the law like this. Paul never said that we are saved by "these" works but just not "those" works.

For one say you cannot be saved by works and the other says your faith is dead or without effect without it.

Faith without works is dead does not mean that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. If someone says-claims they have faith but they have no works (given time to produce these works) to back up their claim/show their faith by their works (James 2:18), then they demonstrate that their faith is dead. Feeding and clothing the poor (James 2:15-16) is not done a split second after someone comes to faith in Christ and is saved, yet faith is alive in Christ (Ephesians 2:5-8) BEFORE these good works are accomplished (Ephesians 2:10).

Works of the law is something that you can do yourself, i.e., give to the poor, visit the widow, ...etc.Works of faith are things said and/or done, that agree or are conjoin with your faith. The manifestation of the work of faith is the fruit that it produced, such as healing, deliverance, walking on water, stilling storms, raising people from the dead, and so on. The desired end result is the fruit, not the work. The work is what you do in faith for the person to get healed or walk on water, and the like.But that's not the only kind of fruit Christians produce. Just as faith can produce good fruit, it can and does produce bad as well. Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: Pro 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof. Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. Mat 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. Christians have cursed their lives and that of their children's, by speaking unfavorably toward or against them or their children, for out of the abundance of their heart their mouth spoke and brought forth evil things to come to pass.Here again, you see the kind of seed in their heart, the work of the seed that caused them to speak, followed by the fruit, which would be the end result of the words they spoke. Those that had an abundance of good seed in their heart, brought forth good things, based on what they said and/or acted on, which is the work, and those that had the bad seed planted in their heart in abundance, brought forth bad or evil things. Notice how Jesus differentiates between the speaking and that which is brought forth. That which is brought forth is the fruit. Whether it be good or bad will depend on what's in their heart in abundance and proceeded out of their mouths. For example, they may feel sick, and so they say, "I don't feel good. I must have a cold or flu or cancer." What they did was, put the law of faith to work, that Jesus spoke of in Mk 11:23, against themselves or a loved one by believing, agreeing with, and confessing the symptom. Just like they did with salvation. When you believe, agree with the word of God, and confess Jesus as your personal savior, you are then saved. It is the law of faith, and it won't work without some type of corresponding work. Just like James said.I never said, nor suggested that faith was or is a work. They are distinctly different and separate. This I have been saying from the beginning.There is faith and there are works and then there is the fruit produced by the conjunction of faith and works.Here again, you lumped works of faith with good works, as though they are the same thing. And because you believe this, you lump works of faith together with the fruit, as though the two of these are the same. James clearly make a distinction between faith and works. Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. As does Paul in Romans 10.Jesus clearly distinguishes the difference between works and fruit, as pointed out above.Faith is not the seed, as the hearing is not the work.Jesus clearly states in the sower sowing seed that the word sown is the seed.Luk 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. And how does faith come? By hearing the word of God.So it is the seed or word one hears and understands that gets planted in their heart. And this same said seed, produces faith in their heart. When they truly believe something, they will begin to talk about it, and when they do, it will produce or bring forth fruit. If the word they receive is of God, it will produce good fruit, such as salvation, healing, casting out devils, commanding storms to be still, walking on water, raising the dead, and the like. Signs following. Again, this has nothing to do with doing good works or things like giving to the poor, going to church, and so on.If it is not God's pure and holy word that the person agrees with and receives in their heart, and speaks it out their mouth, then it will produce bad or evil fruit.Again, this is how both faith and its reciprocal, fear, work. Both work the same way, only faith mainly produces good fruit and is of God, where fear is of the devil, producing evil fruit of weaknesses, failures, deaths, and destruction.Again, you are associating good works with salvation only, and that these same said good works are a result of their salvation, when any nonbeliever can do the same things. Look at the gay and lesbian community. They can be some of the nicest people, doing the same said good works as Christians, yet on another side, the fruit they produce toward each other is disgusting, ill-reputed, and sinful, which in turn produces sicknesses and diseases, as many forms of sin do.Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Peter was lost until he acted on his faith in that situation.NOT.Sir, how could you have so missed what I said in the previous post? What Peter did has absolutely nothing to do with salvation. For it wasn't about the man's or Peter's salvation, it was about and for the man's healing. Peter's faith was already established, and that is why the man got healed. Peter used the faith of Christ in him, along with the man's expection to receive something from him, and that is how the man got his healing. It had nothing to do with Peter's salvation or the man's. The man didn't get healed because Peter was saved. It was because Peter used the faith that was already in him, by directing it specifically at the problem. Even as God sent His word and healed them, we too are to do the same thing and send God's word in faith, for healing. Even as God said, so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth, it shall not return to me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it, we are to do the same, using God's word or promises. Peter's words and actions in faith combined, are what healed the man.As you know, life in this world goes beyond salvation. Our walk with God doesn't just stop once saved. Neither should our knowledge and faith stop growing and expanding. We should move from faith to faith. We have to trust God for more than just saving our souls. We need protection, healing, needs met, good health, knowledge, gifts, and so on.All these things and more, we need to apply our faith, in order to receive them from God.Peter simply applied his faith, along with that of the man, to produce fruit only works of faith could do. It was Peter's faith in action that raised the man up, that caused the hand of God to move on behalf of Peter.You need to think beyond salvation. Hebrews says it is impossible to please God apart from faith, and James says let not that man think that he should receive ANYTHING of the Lord if he wavers, even the slightest bit, in his faith, like Peter did when walking on the water and started to sink. The works of faith James and I are talking about, will cause us to walk as Jesus did and do the same works He did, like feed a multitude from a few loaves of bread and fishes, and go on to do greater works. Going to church, listen to a sermons, say God bless you, and the like, are for those who wish to stay a baby in Christ. People followed Christ mainly because of the signs, wonders, and miracles that followed Him. We are to do the same and not just talk about it.

You are really rambling on here. Please just stick with the point. Do you agree or not with this statement? - Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5) yet genuine faith is evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). Or in other words. Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*

 

[Jackson123]

I remember Martin said. Salvation is by faith alone, but faith is not alone.

Genuine faith follow by/bear fruit. but it doesn't mean fruit cause salvation. it all the way around. faith cause salvation and good work.

Catholic believe:


Faith and work = salvation.

Christian believe:

Faith = salvation and work.

 

[mailmandan]

Please, please, please in all love I pray that people would read and understand the context of Acts 10-15.

Those chapters are not to be taken as the standard by which the Holy Spirit is given to believers, as the context all the way through those chapters was the Lord our God showing contentious Jewish believers that Gentiles have the same right to salvation through Jesus Christ as them.

The actual order is mentioned in Acts 2:38, 3:19, and again in Acts 19:2-6 !!!

The context of Acts 10-15 are absolutely to be taken as the standard by which the Holy Spirit is given to believers. Acts 10:45 - And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. (This showed the Jews that God has accepted the Gentiles and demonstrated they were already saved BEFORE water baptism). Then Peter answered, 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"

Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, (BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:43-47 and also compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) who was I that I could withstand God?" 18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life."

Acts 15:8 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis. Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31). *Perfect Harmony*

In Acts 19:2-6, Paul asked them in verse 2 if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed and their answer in verse 3 reveals that they were not yet believers. They had received the baptism of John but did not realize that Jesus Christ was the One to whom John's baptism pointed. They had not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit! Paul gave them instructions about Jesus and after they believed Paul's presentation of the gospel and came to saving faith in Christ, they were then baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. They received the Holy Spirit when Paul laid hands on them (which is not the norm for all). Apostles were also present to lay hands on the Samaritans in Acts 8 before receiving the Holy Spirit. This does not support the false notion that believers do not receive the Holy Spirit until after they are water baptized as the norm. As in Acts 8, this was a transitional period in which confirmation by the apostles was necessary to verify the inclusion of a new group of people into the church. Because of the animosity that existed between Jews and Samaritans, it was essential for the Samaritans to receive the Spirit in the presence of the leaders of the Jerusalem church for the purpose of maintaining a unified church. So the norm is that we receive the Holy Spirit when we believe the gospel BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9). Ephesians 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation - having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.