Works vs. Works

[know1]

I often see this battle between the two sides concerning works of the law vs. works of faith.
I have found that those who believe in salvation by faith alone, do not seem to be able to comprehend the difference between the two kinds of works. In fact, I have yet to see them understand what works of faith really is or how it works.
You cannot lump Eph 2:8-9 together with James 2. They clearly are not talking about the same thing. Paul is not talking about works of faith but about being saved by works of the law, whereas James is talking about works of faith, and not works of the law.
Works of the law have to do with self righteousness through the person's good works, based on the laws or does and don't of God's word, as has been mentioned by those who believe in OSAS. Basically working or doing good works to be good enough or righteous enough to obtain salvation or the right to go to heaven.
On the other hand, James, Heb, and Paul in Romans 10: 8-10, are talking about works of faith to justification.
As we all know, works of the law do not lead to justification, but the bible is very clear on the fact that faith with corresponding works is unto justification. Just as faith without corresponding action render faith useless or dead.
The bible use of the word, believe, is not in the sense that no action is required.
The word, faith, is a noun, where the word, believe, is a verb. Where a noun is a person, place, or thing, a verb is an action word.
There is only one kind of faith that pleases God and moves His hand, and that is the God kind of faith.
It works the same way for and on everything.
Having said that, if salvation is by believing only in or on the name of Christ, then the same kind of believing will cast out demonic spirits, or get yourself or loved ones healed.
Just try to do either of those things by simply believing.
I guarantee, absolutely nothing will happen.
The same is true concerning salvation.
I think a good example to the bible kind of believing vs. the kind most of you are thinking would be like walking on water.
Two people believe they can walk on water, the one dare not move for fear of sinking, yet he says he believes he can walk on water. The other says it will hold him up and then steps out on the water in full assurance, knowing in his heart that God will hold him up. That is a work of faith, in that God is doing the work to the man's faith because he acted on what he believed. The man's actions corresponded to what he believed, therefore God's hand upheld the man up on the water. Speaking what one believes and then stepping out on the water is a work of faith.
One believes unto righteousness, but salvation is not made until one acts on what they believe, by confessing the lord Jesus. Confession is a work of faith if the person believes what they are saying in their heart.
A work of faith must come from the heart, not the head, or simply out of obedience to the word.
Works of the law are based on one trying to obtain righteousness by being good enough through self obedience to the laws of God, such as the Jews following the 10 commandments. Doing or following the 10 commandments are not works of faith, but works of the law.
I'm a progress in work, so anybody that feels they are able to add to what I've said or explain it better, or to make it more understandable for those confusing the two sides, please feel free to do so.
Those of you who disagree with me and think I don't know what I'm talking about, please use and expound on the scriptures that you believe conflict with what I have said, along with your understanding of the difference between the two types of works.

 

[Skinski7]

Genuine faith is active.

Genuine faith is simply a yielded state to God premised upon true belief and trust.

If one truly believes God then one will order themselves in accordance with the light revealed. This is all God requires of us.

Rebellion to God is akin to putting dirt in the petrol tank of a car, it simply does not work and results in destruction. Sin brings destruction to relationships and brings disorder to the creation. God wants a people who will put their wholehearted trust in Him and yield themselves to that which brings order to the creation, that being the law of love.

We are to love God with all our hearts, mind, and soul and we are to love our neighbour as ourselves. That is the whole of the law. That is all God requires. God simply wants us to yield to His ways instead of rejecting them.

Genuine salvation is a state where we are wholeheartedly yielded to God having been cleansed of our past sins. We cannot "earn" a pardon for our sins for good deeds can never cancel past crimes, we remain guilty. Yet God in His mercy is willing to freely forgive on the condition that we forsake our former ways and yield ourselves to Him. If we do that God will do the rest.

 

[Skinski7]

Here is an article I wrote on this subject several years ago.

The Pearl of Great Price: Works

extract:

I consider it important to address the subject of works due to the misunderstanding which is prevalent in the church system. To say that works are an essential part of salvation is viewed as heresy by most professing Christian's. This is due to the false gospel which is preached in far and wide throughout the world today.


The Gospel, as commonly taught today, has been reduced down to a package or provision consisting of Christ's death on the cross being viewed as a wrath substitute for the sinner. As long as the sinner admits their condition and then trusts in the provision they are then pronounced saved and eternally secure. Sanctification then becomes a long drawn out process of sinning less and less and as long as one is generally walking in the right direction then there is no real concern. This false gospel has removed any fear of God and judgment, made holiness optional, removed the strait gate and narrow way, and it is the very reason why there is so much hypocrisy among professing Christian's today.




In the church system there is no real distinction made between the works of the flesh or law and the works of faith. In fact, works altogether have been eliminated from salvation and have been made subsequent and optional.


By removing the working dynamic from the Gospel the saving power of the Gospel has been totally neutralised. The result is that millions of people have been deceived by Satan into thinking they can be saved via a simple mental acknowledgment of some facts apart from them having to do anything. It is really Satan's masterpiece and it is very difficult for people under this deception to come out from it.
Jesus warned that if the light in us actually be darkness then that darkness is great indeed.
Mat 6:23But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how greatisthat darkness!

 

[know1]

So how does one differentiate between works of the law or of the flesh, and works of faith?
To me it is cut and dry.
For example, let's say someone has terminal cancer, but the doctors say they have treatments that might be able to put the thing in remission.
So the person prays, 'lord I don't want to go through the treatment, would you heal me please?'
And let's say they even go a little further and say, 'thank you lord for healing me according to your word.'
Then because they saw no change in their condition they go for the treatments, and let's say that the treatments put the thing in remission.
So they thank God for healing them, even though God did nothing to heal them.
God said, I am a jealous God and I will not share my glory with another.
This is a work of the flesh, because it is one having confidence in man and in the natural or in this case, medicine and/or the treatments.
Works of the law, which basically are moral and ethical laws, are for those who say they have brought so many people into the kingdom of God, they pray for the sick, they tithe, fast twice a week, visit and help the elderly, and so on, and so in their eyes, they are a good person doing good works, and therefore deserve to keep their salvation and go to heaven.
Works of faith apply not only to salvation, but the same kind or type of faith is used for answered prayer, healings, and deliverances, not only for themselves, but for others as well.
The works of faith for the person with the same terminal cancer would be, to verbally curse the work of the devil, that being the cancer, bind the foul thing, command the stench to leave, ask God to restore what the cancer killed, then thank Him for it while refusing any and all treatments until God fully restores your body, and doing so because you know in your heart without any wavering, reservation, or doubt that He will do what He said He has already done in His word.
This is a work of faith, and the healing accompanies the work of faith because it corresponds to the person's faith. His faith is not dead, but alive and active.
He did not call the cat and walk to the dog like the person who asked for healing then took the treatments.
For salvation, works must accompany the knowing or believing in the heart. Knowing Jesus is lord and the savior of the world, is not enough for salvation. One must act on that by confessing, which is a work of faith. It is not a work of the law.
Same goes for casting out an evil spirit from someone or even those of you who call yourselves Christians. Will a spirit leave because you know you have authority over the thing? Will it be cast out because you believe it will leave just because you believe it will?
Will the cancer leave and will your body be healed just because you believe God is a loving God and because you believe He will heal you?
Many have died just believing God will do something, or even that He has done something. like healing them. Their faith is dead because it has no accompanying works, so they died. It is the law of faith, and God will not break it for anyone.
Even as James said, "faith without works is dead", so it is with salvation. If you are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH, then in order for ones faith to be alive and not dead or useless, in order to move the hand of God to save you, a work of faith MUST accompany the faith or the believing.
No work, faith is dead.
No work, no salvation, and therefore not born again.
Salvation is by grace, but as it is written, we enter into this grace through faith, and faith without works is dead, which equates to, no faith.
And that basically is where the church is today, they have no faith outside salvation, and many didn't and don't have faith for salvation, and therefore are not born again, and they don't even know it.
If you cannot receive the truths of God, the spirit of truth is not in you, and therefore, neither is the spirit of Christ. And if Christ be not in you, then neither do you have life abiding in you. To him that has Christ, has life, and to him that does not have Christ, does not have eternal life.
One cannot have Christ abiding in them apart from works of faith.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

John 3:16
king James version(kjv)

16.)For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
+++++++++
To receive salvation you have to believe that JESUS is the WORD of GOD sent to this world in the flesh/manifested to the five senses of man.

If you want to call believing a work then so be it as long as you know it's not talking about anything physical.

The physical work that men see is called sanctification.

That's why we say that Faith alone saves but faith that saves is never alone.

 

[know1]

John 3:16
king James version(kjv)

16.)For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
+++++++++
To receive salvation you have to believe that JESUS is the WORD of GOD sent to this world in the flesh/manifested to the five senses of man.

If you want to call believing a work then so be it as long as you know it's not talking about anything physical.

The physical work that men see is called sanctification.

That's why we say that Faith alone saves but faith that saves is never alone.

I do not want to call believing a work in the sense that you are using it.
I just got done explaining that without corresponding work, your believing accomplishes nothing.
When Jesus used the word believe, when asked what work shall we do to do the works of God, He did not simply mean believe only without works.
Again, if it did work that way, then it would work for all the other things we simply believe for, and yet everyone knows you don't get what you believe for. That's because it doesn't work that way, nor is it scriptural.
To be born again, you must receive the word of God in your heart and keep it there.
To believe the word of God or the gospel is to receive it, and if you receive the word of God, you receive Jesus.
If you reject the truth, you reject Jesus, for Jesus is the truth.

 

[MarcR]

Most of us who teach Salvation by grace alone accept the need for works of faith.

The difference is that we believe they follow salvation and are enabled by Salvation or by the Holy Spirit's indwelling.

Another difference is that those who argue works of faith seem to take credit for those works; while the grace alone crowd credit God for any good work He does in us.

 

[know1]

Most of us who teach Salvation by grace alone accept the need for works of faith.

The difference is that we believe they follow salvation and are enabled by Salvation or by the Holy Spirit's indwelling.

Another difference is that those who argue works of faith seem to take credit for those works; while the grace alone crowd credit God for any good work He does in us.

Thank you sir, but my main goal is to show the difference between the two kind of works, but more importantly, the works of faith.
Most don't really know what works of faith are because they don't live by faith. They live by, what is, is, and what will be, will be, and if it is, then it is the will of God. They accept every situation as God's will, rather than pray against the thing.
There is no faith in the church today, as they don't walk in faith, and that is because they don't know how it works, neither do they know what it is. If they did, they wouldn't be arguing against doing works of faith, and saying things like, that faith stuff don't work or words of faith don't work.

 

[p_rehbein]

One believes unto righteousness, but salvation is not made until one acts on what they believe, by confessing the lord Jesus. Confession is a work of faith if the person believes what they are saying in their heart.


One minor point I would make is that "repenting and confession" come before salvation........just before.......We do not get "saved" and THEN repent and confess.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

When James said show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works.
James was saying that if a persons Faith is true then it would not be in word only but it would be expressed through the body outwardly showing those men who look at outward appearances that what they see matches what is going on on the inside,and this is called sanctification.

But salvation does not require physical work but faith alone.The WORD of GOD is quick and is discerning of our thoughts and intentions.

 

[Grandpa]

But salvation does not require physical work but faith alone.The WORD of GOD is quick and is discerning of our thoughts and intentions.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Our work doesn't cause our salvation. But it looks like we must have at least tried to work for our salvation before coming to Christ. How do we know we can't do it ourselves unless we try?

Like prehbein said, repenting and confession come before salvation.

I don't know about the rest of you but I worked really hard to come to Christ.

It wasn't until after I had come to Christ that I realized that He had led me the whole way...

 

[dcontroversal]

Most of us who teach Salvation by grace alone accept the need for works of faith.

The difference is that we believe they follow salvation and are enabled by Salvation or by the Holy Spirit's indwelling.

Another difference is that those who argue works of faith seem to take credit for those works; while the grace alone crowd credit God for any good work He does in us.

Exactly.......one cannot work for God unless they are born of God's Spirit........one cannot understand the word of God unless they are born of the Spirit, one cannot understand the will of God unless they are born again.....it is the simple act of faith that saves...the reason works will never save is because the individual is not doing the work as it is Jesus dia the Holy Spirit that is doing the work and all glory goes to God not to men......those who boast in their works are giving themselves glory.....any work that is righteous and godly has come dia Christ in a believer.....

If you believe that God has raised him from the dead thou shalt be saved.......with the mind man believes unto RIGHTEOUSNESS and with the MOUTH confession is made unto SALVATION<----Mind and MOUTH!

 

[know1]

One believes unto righteousness, but salvation is not made until one acts on what they believe, by confessing the lord Jesus. Confession is a work of faith if the person believes what they are saying in their heart.


One minor point I would make is that "repenting and confession" come before salvation........just before.......We do not get "saved" and THEN repent and confess.

If you are talking about a sinner/unbeliever repenting from their evil ways, then I respectfully disagree. When I say evil ways, I am talking about the things they do or the works of the flesh. But if you are talking about repenting in the sense that they are in need of a savior, knowing Jesus to be that man, and repenting from doubting to believing in Christ, then I agree.
Need I remind you that all who doubt God's promises and do not live by faith, are walking in the ways of the world, which is the same sin the sinner/unbeliever is walking in and doesn't know it. If the Christian doesn't know this, then how will someone who doesn't know Christ know to repent of it.
Remember, salvation is by grace THROUGH FAITH, not through faith and repentance of sins they don't know they are committing. It is from and EVIL heart of UNBELIEF, to a heart of believing. Then after God has taken out of your flesh the old stony heart and given you a new/fresh heart, and put within you a new/fresh spirit man for His Spirit to reside, then God will convict that person of all the ways they need to change that are not pleasing to Him. Which is to say, after they are born again and not before.
Also notice, that it is WHEN one believes in the lord that it is counted for righteousness, not when they repent of their evil works and believe. We are not to add to scripture what is not there.
We, as Christians, do indeed have a need to repent and confess our sins after getting saved. Not to get saved again or to keep it, but for the purpose of cleansing us from our sins and for the forgiveness of that sin. And this is to remove any curse from off us that the sin we committed may have put on us, that we may be blessed and not cursed, that we may be delivered and healed of God rather than to die with it. For God does not deliver nor heal without first forgiving the person of the sin that caused the cursed thing on them.

 

[tribesman]

All those who are ignorant about the righteousness of God, which is revealed in the gospel, and are still going about to establish their own righteousness, even they may have a zeal for God, are LOST.

Rom.1

[16] For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
[17] For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Rom.10

[1] Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
[2] For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
[3] For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
[4] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

All we need to know.

 

[know1]

When James said show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works.
James was saying that if a persons Faith is true then it would not be in word only but it would be expressed through the body outwardly showing those men who look at outward appearances that what they see matches what is going on on the inside,and this is called sanctification.

But salvation does not require physical work but faith alone.The WORD of GOD is quick and is discerning of our thoughts and intentions.

No sir, it is not called sanctification, it is called faith.
When one truly believes the promises of God and acts on that belief, that is faith, not sanctification. That is how faith works.
When God said in Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?, He meant what He said. Dead, as in lifeless and completely useless, nonfunctioning, without effect, cannot operate, and the like.
FAITH MUST HAVE ACCOMPANYING WORKS FOR IT TO WORK, OR IT IS DEAD BEING ALONE. This is what moves the hand of God, and this is how faith works.

 

[know1]

Exactly.......one cannot work for God unless they are born of God's Spirit........one cannot understand the word of God unless they are born of the Spirit, one cannot understand the will of God unless they are born again.....it is the simple act of faith that saves...the reason works will never save is because the individual is not doing the work as it is Jesus dia the Holy Spirit that is doing the work and all glory goes to God not to men......those who boast in their works are giving themselves glory.....any work that is righteous and godly has come dia Christ in a believer.....

If you believe that God has raised him from the dead thou shalt be saved.......with the mind man believes unto RIGHTEOUSNESS and with the MOUTH confession is made unto SALVATION<----Mind and MOUTH!

Acting on the gospel that you heard and believed is the works the bible is talking about. This is a work of faith, and as you have said, simply acting on your faith is what saves you. That is the work of faith that moves the hand of God to save you. Not, repentance of dead works, baptism, or acting on the moral and ethical laws of God, such as the ten commandments, in conjunction with your faith, but simply faith acted on and that alone is what saves.
Whatever translation you used sir, concerning the mind, is not accurate.
If by the use of the word, mind, you mean, heart, then yes. For faith is not of the mind but of the heart. One believes with and from the heart, not the mind. Though the mind is in the heart of man, it is not the heart. They are distinct one from another.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

No sir, it is not called sanctification, it is called faith.
When one truly believes the promises of God and acts on that belief, that is faith, not sanctification. That is how faith works.
When God said in Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?, He meant what He said. Dead, as in lifeless and completely useless, nonfunctioning, without effect, cannot operate, and the like.
FAITH MUST HAVE ACCOMPANYING WORKS FOR IT TO WORK, OR IT IS DEAD BEING ALONE. This is what moves the hand of God, and this is how faith works.

when I say sanctification I am talking about living holy in the body here on earth.

When you say Faith without works is dead that is true but true faith is expressed through the body that other men see and that's what I meant by using the word sanctification maybe I should say living holy after salvation.

But nevertheless GOD knows our thoughts and intentions but men need to see our good works and glorify GOD in heaven.

 

[know1]

All those who are ignorant about the righteousness of God, which is revealed in the gospel, and are still going about to establish their own righteousness, even they may have a zeal for God, are LOST.

All we need to know.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Righteousness is by and through the faith of God in us, and as it is written, faith without works is dead.
And again, the works of faith are not the same as one trying to go about establishing their own righteousness, even though faith does require us to do some type of act or work that lines up with our believing, the work itself does not establish our right standing with God.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Our work doesn't cause our salvation. But it looks like we must have at least tried to work for our salvation before coming to Christ. How do we know we can't do it ourselves unless we try?

Like prehbein said, repenting and confession come before salvation.

I don't know about the rest of you but I worked really hard to come to Christ.

It wasn't until after I had come to Christ that I realized that He had led me the whole way...

The Jews were trying to relate to GOD under the law and all the time it was JESUS that they needed.Those that come to Grace start out trying and eventually realize they were using willpower.It's GOD that gives us REST because after GOD does the work in us it's no longer laborious but now their is desire to please him.

 

[know1]

when I say sanctification I am talking about living holy in the body here on earth.

When you say Faith without works is dead that is true but true faith is expressed through the body that other men see and that's what I meant by using the word sanctification maybe I should say living holy after salvation.

But nevertheless GOD knows our thoughts and intentions but men need to see our good works and glorify GOD in heaven.

Sir, I believe I understood you correctly the first time and I would like to explain further, if you don't mind.
Faith is specific and directed. It is like a gun that you point in a certain direction and fire.
Living holy has nothing to do with faith unless you are doing so by faith.
Does living a holy life that others can see have anything to do with your faith if it has to do with praying for the sick?
No, because it does not line up with your faith, which is for the sick to get healed. Living holy before God is general, not specific nor is it pointed in the direction of your faith, which is, praying for the sick to get well. Your living a holy life has nothing to do with the person you are praying for to get well. Therefore it does not apply, nor is it a work of faith for the sick.
In short, living a holy life has nothing to do with faith, unless you are directing your faith to living holy. For you can no more live a holy life before God than a nonbeliever can, apart from or without faith in God doing so through you. To try to do so apart from faith is to live by the law and not by the grace of God.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Living a holy life must also be done by the faith of God, which is by your faith.
To do so without faith, but by your own strengths and abilities, is to be and walk in and according to the law. It will simply be a work of the law. Then are you fallen from grace.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Without faith in the thing you are believing for, Christ's power has become of no effective to you.