'What About Deborah?' and Other Silly Excuses Women Use to Usurp Authority

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kennethcadwell

Guest
#2
#2
Apostle Paul just says that he does not allow women to teach or have authority over a man, not that they can not have authority.

Once again in order for this debate to be valid on women can not be leaders, then you would have to do away with a number of women mentioned in the bible.

One being Junia who is a female apostle and mentioned as such in the bible.
All early church writings up to the 4th century had Junia mentioned as a female apostle, it was not tell the 4th century that they tried to hide this fact to where they even took in some translations and changed her name to the male form Junias. Adding the s to the end that is not in the original Greek, to hide her authority as an apostle.

Another is Phoebe who is called a deacon in Romans 16:1, even though some translations have her listed as a servant.

People constantly misuse what Paul said to say women can not hold leadership roles, but that is not at all what Paul was saying.
 
p_rehbein

p_rehbein

Senior Member
#3
Sep 4, 2013
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Maybe men should first become adept at obedience to ALL of God's Commandments before focusing on one of the Apostles teachings? Seems reasonable to me. Men have no problem denying that we are to be obedient to the Commandments of Christ, yet they want to drag this topic out every now and again?
 
WebersHome

WebersHome

Senior Member
#4
Dec 9, 2014
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Deborah was neither a Christian nor a member of a Christian church.
Therefore 1Tim 2:12 does not apply to her; especially seeing as how Paul's
instructions weren't chipped in stone till several centuries after her passing.
According to Gal 3:17, covenanted law isn't retroactive.

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K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#5
#5
WebersHome said:
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Deborah was neither a Christian nor a member of a Christian church.
Therefore 1Tim 2:12 does not apply to her; especially seeing as how Paul's
instructions weren't chipped in stone till several centuries after her passing.
According to Gal 3:17, covenanted law isn't retroactive.

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That maybe true that Deborah was not a member of a Christian church, nor called a Christian as that term was not even heard of yet.
But the fact still remains that God choose her to be in a position of leadership, so to take and misuse a scripture from Paul to say women can not hold positions of leadership is to say God went against His own way in the number of different women He put in leadership positions throughout the bible.

God would not appoint women as leaders here but then say women can't be leaders......
 
NotmebutHim

NotmebutHim

Senior Member
#6
May 17, 2015
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There is also the fact that Deborah was a judge over Israel, and as such, she would have had some level of authority over the men of Israel.

In addition, there is debate as to whether Paul's words were directed at that specific church group or the Church as a whole. If it was to that one group, it might have been because of the worship practices of various individuals before they became Christians.
 
JFSurvivor

JFSurvivor

Senior Member
#7
Jan 20, 2015
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ChosenbyHim said:
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Yeeeeeah you need to be careful about what you post because some of us really struggle with this and people like you push us ten steps back in our faith and love for God and for ourselves as women so next time think before you post ok? Ok great!

Also P.S. Some of us are trying to not see ourselves as inferior ans second class citizens and this is not helping.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#8
#8
NotmebutHim said:
There is also the fact that Deborah was a judge over Israel, and as such, she would have had some level of authority over the men of Israel.

In addition, there is debate as to whether Paul's words were directed at that specific church group or the Church as a whole. If it was to that one group, it might have been because of the worship practices of various individuals before they became Christians.
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From the studies I have done on this issue it was only directed at that particular group, and not the church as a whole.
We know this also because Paul a couple of times commended and showed respect for a couple of women in leadership roles in the church; Junia, Phoebe, and Priscilla to name 3 of them...
 
WebersHome

WebersHome

Senior Member
#9
Dec 9, 2014
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#9
kennethcadwell said:
That maybe true
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Maybe true? So that's it: you doubt the inspiration of scripture.

BTW: Some of you people are pretty good at sophistry; and quite skilled at
circumventing Paul's instructions to Timothy.

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K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#10
#10
WebersHome said:


Maybe true? So that's it: you're a disbeliever.

BTW: Some of you people are pretty good at sophistry; and quite skilled at
circumventing Paul's instructions to Timothy.

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Use all that I said, as I said that Christianity was not heard of back then so yes she could not have been a Christian.

However God did choose her to be in a leadership role.
God choose her to be a judge, prophet, and a leader in Israel, so just because this is in the old testament you can not write it off. Because the new testament also shows women who held leadership roles within the church, that the Apostle Paul even commended and gave respect to for their work in Christ they have done.

A person is not a disbeliever when they have studied the scriptures clearly, and accept how they do show women in leadership roles.
 
Joidevivre

Joidevivre

Senior Member
#11
Jul 15, 2014
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#11
The first sermon was given by Jesus to a WOMAN to preach. And to men who, of course, didn't believe her.

She did not take their authority away from them. Just wanted to share what Jesus had made real to her. And so we women are still trying to do exactly that.

Why is this topic so important. Do you see women in your church trying to take the pastor's pulpit away from him?
 
Stephen63

Stephen63

Banned
#12
Aug 15, 2009
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#12
ChosenbyHim said:
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I COULD mention the women that worked directly with Paul in the ministry, such as Pricilla, or Phoebe, or Nympha who had a church in her house (which everyone in scriptures who did so was the minister of it), but I won't. Here's my scripture:

Joel 2:28-29 (NASB) [SUP]28 [/SUP]"It will come about after this That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions. [SUP]29 [/SUP]"Even on the male and female servants I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

Joel 2:28-29 (NRSV) [SUP]28 [/SUP]" Then afterward I will pour out my spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions. [SUP]29 [/SUP]Even on the male and female slaves, in those days, I will pour out my spirit.

Acts 2:17-18 (NASB) [SUP]17 [/SUP]'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST days,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR forth of MY SPIRIT on all MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS and your daughters shall prophesy, AND YOUR YOUNG men shall see visions, AND YOUR OLD men shall dream dreams; [SUP]18[/SUP]EVEN on MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN and women, I WILL IN THOSE days pour forth of MY SPIRIT And they shall prophesy.

Acts 2:17-18 (NRSV) [SUP]17 [/SUP]'In the last days it will be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Even upon my slaves, both men and women, in those days I will pour out my Spirit; and they shall prophesy.

The word 'prophesy' generally means "speak for God" as in His place. Prophets & prophetesses spoke with God's authority. ALL of them did.
My point: These scriptures say even the bondslaves, who had NO authority to speak to anybody, were given authority by God at the moment the Holy Spirit lead them to speak! If slaves were given this authority, why not the free women of the church?

You're saying Paul's teaching conflicts with Peter's..... but we all know no scripture conflicts with another, seeing the Bible says men wrote as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

The real problem here is lack of historical context of the church of Ephesus, which prompted Paul to tell Timothy in the first place. Two churches had the same problems with goddess worship, Corinth & Ephesus, where women held priestess positions & abused their authority over men.
 
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WebersHome

WebersHome

Senior Member
#14
Dec 9, 2014
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#14
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The interesting thing is: Paul's instructions are not his; they're Christ's
instructions.

†. 1Cor 14:37 . . If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let
him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the
commandments of The Lord.

†. 1Ths 4:1-2 . .We beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord
Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please
God, so ye would abound more and more. For ye know what commandments
we gave you by the Lord Jesus.

It's the pleasure of those loyal to Christ to comply with his instructions.

†. John 14:15 . . If you love me, you will comply with what I command.

†. John 14:21 . .Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one
who loves me.

†. John 14:23-24 . . If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching . . He who
does not love me will not obey my teaching.

†. John 15:14 . .You are my friends if you do as I wish.

So then: people who refuse to comply with Paul are in reality refusing to
comply with Christ; which in reality, is rebellion against God's edicts-- a
domino effect all the way to the top.

†. Luke 10:16 . .Whoever listens to you; listens to me. Whoever rejects you;
rejects me. And whoever rejects me; rejects the one who sent me.

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S

Sirk

Guest
#15
#15
It's funny that you choose divisive topics....well not really but it looks to me like you live in fear of the devil. He's got quite a grip on you.
 
p_rehbein

p_rehbein

Senior Member
#16
Sep 4, 2013
30,196
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#16
WebersHome said:
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The interesting thing is: Paul's instructions are not his; they're Christ's
instructions.

QUOTE]


Yes........................and.............................No


the Apostle Paul wrote in two DISTINCT styles:

1) Thus sayeth the Lord

2) I would rather that/it would be better that

When writing in the first style, there was no debate to take place, no room for argument; it was: THUS SAYETH THE LORD.


However, when writing in the second style, the Apostle was laying out guidelines to show believers how to live a more peaceful life, without a lot of stress and sorrow, BUT it was not LAW. These writings are easily identified from Thus Sayeth the Lord. As an example:

Paul wrote that he would rather that no one get married..............Jesus taught that the "two would become one flesh."

Reason why so many people get confused about what the Apostle wrote/taught is because they do not realize the two styles, or are not able to distinguish between the two styles, or refuse to acknowledge the two styles. In any event, misunderstanding of these two distinct styles has let to many, many arguments.
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V

valiant

Senior Member
#17
Mar 22, 2015
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#17
kennethcadwell said:
One being Junia who is a female apostle and mentioned as such in the bible.
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To be 'of note among the Apostles' does not signify that he/she was an Apostle. It merely signifies that he/she was well known to and respected by the Apostles. In the light of Scriptures elsewhere he/she was not one of 'the Apostles'.

All early church writings up to the 4th century had Junia mentioned as a female apostle, it was not tell the 4th century that they tried to hide this fact to where they even took in some translations and changed her name to the male form Junias. Adding the s to the end that is not in the original Greek, to hide her authority as an apostle.
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In fact in the Greek it is Junian. Translating as Junia works on the basis that Junian was a feminine accusative. Others see it as an abbreviation of the common name Junianus which would be masculine.

But which early church writings did mention him/her? They were late enough just to be guessing as we are.

Another is Phoebe who is called a deacon in Romans 16:1, even though some translations have her listed as a servant.
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whilst I do not doubt that Phoebe was a deaconess, we should note that diakonos does mean a servant. Just as episkopos means an overseer. thus the translation servant is literally correct.

People constantly misuse what Paul said to say women can not hold leadership roles, but that is not at all what Paul was saying.
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You must prove that in other ways, not by misrepresenting the Greek.
 
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p_rehbein

p_rehbein

Senior Member
#18
Sep 4, 2013
30,196
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#18
Priscilla


...............................
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#19
#19
It appears that some think Deborah and her testimony and standing in Gods Word should be related to others as "silly"? No we must give all Gods Word and actions the honor they deserve in our search for His Will. Did God appoint Deborah as a Judge over Israel? Yes! Could God do the same thing and appoint a woman in the position and authority of a man? Yes...He can :)
 
V

valiant

Senior Member
#20
Mar 22, 2015
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#20
NotmebutHim said:
There is also the fact that Deborah was a judge over Israel, and as such, she would have had some level of authority over the men of Israel.

In addition, there is debate as to whether Paul's words were directed at that specific church group or the Church as a whole. If it was to that one group, it might have been because of the worship practices of various individuals before they became Christians.
Click to expand...
Huldah was also a prophetess. But we cannot use two exceptional women as basis for how all women should be treated. Furthermore these two women did not lay down basic doctrines. If we apply it only to the Corinthian church then we raise the problem that no Scripture can be seen as generally applicable unless the same teaching is contained in a number of epistles. To my mind this is dangerous.. The same argument is used by homosexuals concerning Rom 1.25 ff.

In my view Paul was forbidding overall authority to women, especially at a time when there was no New Testament due to their tendency to be more easily misled because of the way a woman's brain works. Eve was deceived. Adam was not..
 
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