Sinless Perfectionism

[sparkman]

SINLESS PERFECTIONISM
​

Sinless perfectionism people teach that once a person is saved, they will no longer sin.

Sinless perfectionism is quite often related to Pelagianism, whether the sinless perfectionist is an avowed Pelagian or not.Pelagians deny core Christian doctrines such as original sin, justification by faith alone, imputed or forensic righteousness,and penal substitutionary atonement.Pelagians are not Christian.

A major danger with regards to sinless perfectionism relates to new believers, who may be less grounded in Scripture.If new believers are exposed to the false teaching of sinless perfectionism, and are transparent enough to realize that they still have incidences of sin, they will begin to doubt their salvation.

Faith produces salvation, and salvation produces obedience.Obedience should characterize the Christian’s life.However, no believer is always perfectly obedience all the time.Believers need to confess their sins on a regular basis.Confession means to admit one’s sins to God in prayer and ask forgiveness. God then cleanses us of all of our sins.

SINLESS PERFECTIONIST ACCUSATIONS

Sinless perfectionists will often accuse those who question their sinless claims of promoting sin.They tend to consider all other Christians as being antinomians.

There may be a few professing Christians who promote sinful living, but those are the exception, not the norm.Sinless perfectionists will still employ the slander that other Christians support sinful living, though.This is ironic because in slandering others like this, they are bearing false witness which is forbidden by the ninth commandment.

Faith leads to salvation leads to obedience.Obedience is never perfect at all times, though.And their claims to be perfect are a product of lying or self-deception, according to I John 1:8-9.

Here is what Christians believe about obedience and whether Christians should sin.

Rom 6:1-2What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?[SUP]2 [/SUP]By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

WHAT IS THE STANDARD FOR HOLINESS?

One of the problems with sinless perfectionism is their low view of the standard that God places before a Christian.

The sinless perfectionist creates a false standard for perfection that they meet.In this manner, they can consider themselves to be sinless.

Is their standard the objective standard of perfection that God asks Christians to seek, though?

Here is the standard that God sets for us:

I John 2:6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

I am convinced that sinless perfectionists tend to make themselves their standard.I believe that’s the essence of self-righteousness.Sinless perfectionists are suffering from a bad case of self-righteousness.

One sinless perfectionist told me that he walked just exactly like Christ walked.He claimed to be a carbon copy of Jesus Christ.His words, paraphrased, were when you see me, you are looking at Jesus Christ.However, that individual used very foul and sexually explicit language while conducting campus ministries, worse than any unbeliever I’ve talked with.
Most Christians know that they fall far short of the standard of God’s holiness.They strive to be like Jesus Christ, but they do
not meet this standard.

WHAT DOES I JOHN 1 SAY?

If someone claims they never sin, they are either self-deceived or lying.Note this Scripture which is written to believers:

I John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

In regards to these verses, what does it mean to walk in darkness, and what does it mean to walk in light?

Walking in light means to be a believer. God wants us to live transparently with Him.Remember what Adam and Eve did when they ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? They hid from God in shame and embarrassment.God wants us to do the opposite.He wants us to live transparently with Him, and go to Him when we sin.

Walking in the light also conveys a sense of transparency and openness to acknowledging one's sins...living before God openly and being willing to acknowledge one's sins. It implies being responsive to the new nature which we receive from God at conversion through the process of regeneration. All real Christians have this new nature, and want to obey and please God.

Walking in darkness means to be an unbeliever, with no concern for obedience, and dwelling in spiritual darkness and deception.

As verse 8 clearly states, if we claim not to have sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. This means that walking in light in verse 7 CANNOT be referring to a state of sinlessness; otherwise we would have a contradiction. Verse 7 clearly refers to being a believer and in a state of transparency or willingness to acknowledge our sin, and being responsive to the new nature.

Also, compare verse 6 with verse 10. Walking in darkness means to say that we have no sin. We are living in self-deception.
Verse 9 teaches that when we sin, we need to confess it, and ask forgiveness, and God will cleanse us from it.
These verses describe the process of progressive sanctification.

My pastor when I was first saved described it to me this way. Imagine being in a totally dark room with very dense blinds on the windows. When the Holy Spirit first comes into our lives, he illuminates the darkness of our souls and shows us a little of our sin. It would be like tweaking the blinds open a bit, and a sliver of light falls on the floor and we see some of the dirtiness on the carpet. We clean that up. He tweaks the blinds a little more and shows us more of our sins. We clean that up. He progressively does that throughout our lives.

If he simply threw the blinds open and revealed all of our sin to us at once, there would be no way that we could deal with it all. God is merciful and cleanses us progressively. We never come to a point where we are a finished work until the resurrection.

Am I saying that God does not cleanse us of some pretty major sins when we first come to Christ? No, I am not. God does liberate us from some powerful sins when we are first saved, and it is a mighty work. I have seen drug addicts, alcoholics, smokers, sexually immoral people, and others cleansed of powerful sins seemingly instantaneously at conversion. Yet, these individuals would never claim to be fully delivered from every sin in their lives.

It is not ok to sin after salvation, but I John 1 clearly teaches that we do, and to deny the existence of this sin circumvents the process of being cleansed of it. The process is confessing, being forgiven, and being cleansed by God.

Viewing these verses correctly is very important, as self-righteous people who claim sinlessness cause Christians who are living transparently and in the light to question their salvation. These conscientious Christians, who realize their brokenness, are negatively impacted by this sort of bad teaching. They may become discouraged, consider it hopeless and quit confessing their sins and being cleansed for a period of time until God shows them the truth. In addition, the supposedly sinless individuals themselves are living in denial of their brokenness, may be unsaved, and if saved, are certainly circumventing the very process that God has designed for cleansing.

We are never sinless short of glorification and never exhaust our continual need for our Savior. Our realization of our need for spiritual cleansing is what drives us to a closer relationship with Jesus Christ. If we claim we are sinless, and have no need of him, we simply circumvent the entire process.

 

[sparkman]

WHAT DOES ROMANS 7 SAY?

Romans 7:13-25 Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Sinless perfectionists will claim that these verses are talking about the Apostle Paul prior to conversion, but this cannot be true.He is speaking in present tense, not past tense.In addition, the carnal mind does not want to do what is right.Paul obviously was not a carnal minded person it this point.He was not hostile toward God; he wanted to obey God.

Rom 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it is not subject to God’s law; indeed it cannot.Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Paul himself struggled with sin, and openly admitted it in these Scriptures.He also spoke about this in other verses:

I Tim 1:15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.

Phil 3:12-13Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,

DOES I JOHN 3:9 OR 1 JOHN 5:18 TEACH SINLESS PERFECTIONISM?

I John 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning; for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he is born of God.

1 John 5:18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.

These two verses are commonly used to assert that Christians never sin.However, if this assertion is true, then the Scriptures contradict themselves, as I John 1:8-9 proves that Christians can and do sin.

The short answer in regards to this claim is that a Christian cannot practice sin as a lifestyle after being saved.For instance, if a Christian decided to turn completely away from God and return to his previous sinful lifestyle as a permanent decision, that would be practicing sin, and it would be evidence that he was never saved to begin with.

These verses do not teach that Christians never commit incidences of sin, but they do not turn back into their old lifestyle of sin.

Understanding these verses require parsing the original Greek language behind the verses.Here is a good article on this topic:
https://carm.org/can-true-christian-sin

SAINTS WHO SINNED

Scripture is very clear about the shortcomings of believers.Here are some examples of believers who sinned:

·Abraham lied and showed a lack of faith when he said Sarai was his sister rather than wife (Genesis 12)
·Noah got drunk after the Flood (Genesis 9)
·David committed adultery with Bathsheba and had her husband killed (2 Samuel 11)
·Samson had sex with a prostitute (Judges 16:1)
·Peter denied Christ three times, and committed the sin of favoritism (Matt 26, Gal 2:11-13)
·The Corinthian man was involved in sexual activity with his stepmother (I Corinthians 5)
·The Corinthian congregation committed sin in ignoring the activity between the man and his wife (I Corinthians 5)
The fact that saints committed sin doesn’t justify our sins, but simply point to the fact that we are all human and stray from God at times and sin.

SIN OF PRIDE
People who claim to be sinless by their very nature are full of pride.They don’t seem to realize their pride, either.
Pride, in this context, is an inordinate sense of superiority due to moral performance.This parable illustrates pride in a Christian context very well:

Luke 18:9-14 [SUP]9 [/SUP]He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: [SUP]10 [/SUP]“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. [SUP]11 [/SUP]The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed[SUP]a[/SUP]thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ [SUP]13 [/SUP]But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ [SUP]14 [/SUP]I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

I’ve talked with a lot of people on forums who claimed to be sinless, and every one of them reflects this attitude. They continually accuse other Christians of spiritual and moral inferiority, and feel driven to do so.Their inference is quite often that others aren’t even believers.I haven’t seen any of them change their attitude either.They seem totally oblivious to their spiritual pride and self-righteousness.

SELF-DECEPTION

Those who claim to be sinless are either self-deceived or lying, according to I John 1:8-9.

The human mind is capable of deceiving itself, and cannot be trusted.How do I know this?I have seen it firsthand, in my life.
When I first started to pursue God, I was trying very hard to obey him.I was studying Scripture probably 3 hours a day, as well as spending a lot of time in prayer and fasting.I spent time helping other people with tasks and made a lot of effort to be outgoing and loving to others.

At that point, I thought I was a really good, faithful Christian, although I had not been baptized yet.I probably thought I was virtually sinless.

One morning, I was praying and God suddenly revealed to me my true nature. He caused words and actions that I had said or done to others to come to my mind and Scriptures that condemned those words and actions to come to mind. I was suddenly convicted of my self-righteousness in a moment of time.It was then that I was able to understand that I was a sinner by nature, and not just by deed.

I was able at that time to truly understand my need for Jesus Christ as my Savior and place my faith in him and his perfect sacrifice on my behalf.

I suspect many sinless perfectionists are individuals who haven’t progressed beyond where I was before God showed me this.I would ask them to meditate on this verse and ask God to reveal their self-deception.

Jer 17:9-10 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?
I the Lord search the heart and test the mind to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.

To be honest, I don’t think that you are saved unless you truly realize the fact that you are a sinner by nature and not just by deed.

Pelagians in particular are perpetually blinded by self-deception.Their theological system denies the existence of a sin nature, and that belief enslaves them.I conclude that they probably aren’t saved at all in light of my experience.They are blinded by self-deception and thus cannot understand their need for God’s grace.As a result, their theology is basically about works.
Can a believer be self-deceived at times?I believe we still have that capacity at some level.A believer should be aware of the capacity our minds have for that sort of self-deception.That is why we need to communicate with God and feed our spiritual man in with study, prayer, fasting,worship, and fellowship.

 

[sparkman]

OTHER SCRIPTURES REFUTING SINLESS PERFECTIONISM

Eccl 7:20Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things,and desperately sick;who can understand it?
Job 4:17-19 Can mortal man be in the right before God? Can a man be pure before his Maker? 18 Even in his servants he puts no trust, and his angels he charges with error 19 how much more those who dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation is in the dust,who are crushed like the moth.
Luke 11: 1-4Now Jesus was praying in a certain place, and when he finished, one of his disciples said to him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John taught his disciples. And he said to them, “When you pray, say: “Father, hallowed be your name.Your kingdom come. Give us each day our daily bread, and forgive us our sins, for we ourselves forgive everyone who is indebted to us.And lead us not into temptation.
Christ told his disciples to pray for the forgiveness of sins.This implies the existence of sins.

QUESTIONS FOR SINLESS PERFECTIONISTS
·Are you involved in a fellowship of believers where you are held accountable?If not, why are you in disobedience to God’s commands concerning this(Hebrews 10:24-25) ?
Scripture clearly teaches that we are to be involved in corporate worship in the context of a fellowship where we are held accountable to church leadership.Many sinless perfectionists aren’t in obedience to this command.I think part of the reason is due to their delusion of spiritual superiority.

ADDITIONAL RESOURCES
Here are some great resources in regards to sinless perfectionism:
http://www.ligonier.org/blog/heresy-perfectionism/

 

[JesusIsAll]

But we must not discount the work of the Holy Spirit. I've never seen a person here with Spirit eyes to see taken in, for a minute, by any of these trolls of doubt, any legalists or cults, for that matter. Not once. As to the young Christian, if they're saved, the Holy Spirit will guide them into truth. It's good to expose lies, but all I'm saying is we should not despair the Spirit will fail any born from above.

Matthew 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

 

[sparkman]

I agree with this. I'm not sure how deceived a person who is a believer can be. The Holy Spirit definitely leads into truth, though.

With regards to legalism, I was very legalistic for 12 years or so. So I do think you can be deceived.

But we must not discount the work of the Holy Spirit. I've never seen a person here with Spirit eyes to see taken in, for a minute, by any of these trolls of doubt, any legalists or cults, for that matter. Not once. As to the young Christian, if they're saved, the Holy Spirit will guide them into truth. It's good to expose lies, but all I'm saying is we should not despair the Spirit will fail any born from above.

Matthew 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

 

[JesusIsAll]

I agree with this. I'm not sure how deceived a person who is a believer can be. The Holy Spirit definitely leads into truth, though.

With regards to legalism, I was very legalistic for 12 years or so. So I do think you can be deceived.

It takes a long time for many to see some things clearly. We're sanctified, but we're not from eternity and of the Spirit without measure of the Lord Jesus, as creatures need to learn spiritually, as a child also learns from school. I never had a problem with legalism, as scripture teaches where we stand as to any redeeming righteousness, also just realizing I don't have the perfect holiness of God, as we speak, never will, in this life. This was from the beginning, and remains, so I disdained any self righteous, always. On the other hand, I had a problem some years with fully trusting God when the chips were down, a few times, when depressed over turns of events, angry at God, which He had to cure me of, by I believe allowing tribulations, until I learned some of the lesson of Job. We're also living in a sick society, pulling us away from God, any which way, which we have to stop living for, and it can take some time, to get sucked out of what we're sucked into by very upbringing, everywhere you turn, saved or not.

There's much to learn, but He either takes us home, or we will emerge from error, not to be perfect in the flesh, but to understand more who the Lord is, that He is worthy in all ways, and to be trusted, absolutely. That was my battle, like your legalism. So, we're all works in progress, and often at different places, but the Holy Spirit is faithful. The Lord's hands are firm in His power to save, can be trusted: you have the Spirit, you already have eternal life, His righteousness, and His sanctity. You are, already, citizens of the kingdom of God, and you're not going to become unborn again, aren't going to get your "passport" yanked. Sealed by His Spirit is sealed by His Spirit. Don't despair these doctrines of devils. This too shall pass.

Do yourself a favor. Join my cult of the Page Down key, unless you just want to have some fun with these deceptive spiritual idiots.

 

[Jason0047]

[VIDEO=youtube;-AQtoN_HdIo]https://youtu.be/-AQtoN_HdIo[/VIDEO]

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

[VIDEO=youtube;-AQtoN_HdIo]https://youtu.be/-AQtoN_HdIo[/VIDEO]

Pure unadulterated Pelagian garbage. Which is to say, 100% utter filth that denies the true Gospel.

 

[Hepzibah]

sparkman

You really should do your research better than that if you want to be taken seriously in your critique. There are just so many errors in it.

For a start, although Pelagians believe that we are not born with a sin nature (and the scriptures are very weak on that), they do not believe that we continue without one. That is to say, we all fall and need a Saviour. Pelagius himself was indeed a Christian and even Augustine had to admit that he was a very holy man. Why would a noted theologian like him bother discussing the finer points of doctrine with an unsaved man? That is nonsense.

I guess I am a sinless perfectionist, if it is interpreted correctly and do not believe that when we come to Christ and thereafter we do not sin. Nor do I believe that a man cannot sin again once he is perfected. He can fall at any time because it is not by his strength that he can walk without sinning.

As for a gradual sanctification, show me where a man has testified to this? There isn't one who gradually gets holier and holier through his life till old age. In fact i find that those who reject entire sanctification to be still struggling with the same sins till they die.

There is nothing in the Bible that says that death is our friend and delivers us from sin. In fact there is a verse in the OT that says that as a tree falls so it lays.

I had a very hard time for 17 years as a believer with an up and down experience and great struggles with my besetting sin which was anger. During that ime there was no improvement, but one day Christ imparted his nature to me, when I realised what crucified with him really meant, which enabled me to be without sin for quite a while.

Great error abounds with this doctrine and I agree with you that here are folk around who say thay do not sin and they are blind. Sinless means sinless in my book (and the Bible) and it means no sin of ignorance and no sin in the thoughts. There is a continuous need for a Saviour in this state, even more so.

I am afraid that you have been in contact with those who bring down this doctrine and are not genuine, and have been reading the wrong books.

This is the standard

I John 2:6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

No more no less. Absolute obedience. The rest of the verses you quote have been dealt with in other places, but once you set your mind on unbelief they will not reveal the truth to you.

 

[Hepzibah]

Sorry Jason that man cannot control his appetite. Fat men should not preach perfection.

 

[Blain]

UGH sinless perfection is a deadly virus that never goes away..... If I was exposed to this doctrine when I first became saved I would have lost my faith. Do ppl even consider the damage they do to ppl with their self centered beliefs?

 

[Jason0047]

Sorry Jason that man cannot control his appetite. Fat men should not preach perfection.

I do not think he is fat. Also, do you not support sinless perfectionism yourself? Are you perfect yourself right now? Hello? In other words, take the beam out of your own eye first.

 

[Jason0047]

UGH sinless perfection is a deadly virus that never goes away..... If I was exposed to this doctrine when I first became saved I would have lost my faith. Do ppl even consider the damage they do to ppl with their self centered beliefs?

So it is better to give into the thinking you will forever do evil for God's good kingdom? What? That does not make any sense. Believers are to be perfect as their Heavenly Father is perfect. Jesus said so Himself.

 

[Jason0047]

Pure unadulterated Pelagian garbage. Which is to say, 100% utter filth that denies the true Gospel.

Did you even watch the video and look at the verses? My guess is that you didn't watch it and you are just mindless hitting the ... "I disagree button" without being a good Berean about it.

 

[Hepzibah]

Jason, why can't you put a preacher on who actually looks like he is fit and healthy? I am not standing in a pulpit witht he world watching me.

My position on whether I am perfect at the moment is the same as yours - I do not wish to talk about my own spirituality.

 

[Jason0047]

God never wants a person to sin. How on Earth can people think they that condoning evil is a good thing is beyond me. But Revelation says,

"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."

 

[Blain]

So it is better to give into the thinking you will forever do evil for God's good kingdom? What? That does not make any sense. Believers are to be perfect as their Heavenly Father is perfect. Jesus said so Himself.

I would appreciate it if you would not twist my words like that. You know that is not what I am saying in the least, your perfection doctrine is most likely the most dangerous and the most damaging belief I have ever encountered in Christianity.
I used to go to another forum and someone made a testimony thread called sinless/ perfection. This poor kid became a Christian but his mentor was a sinless or perfection believer and this poor kid was so confused because he tried so hard to live up to such standards but always failed he never could be sinless or perfect and he thought that was what Christians were supposed to be. not three weeks later he lost his faith because of ppl like you, then many ppl posted in that thread how they went through the same thing.

If there is one thing that infuriates me that actually makes me lose my cool is when ppl are being hurt by such a thing like your doctrine. Who are you or anyone else to do this to ppl? Do you have any idea the damage your belief does to ppl? any idea how it drives them from God's arms?

 

[Jason0047]

Jason, why can't you put a preacher on who actually looks like he is fit and healthy? I am not standing in a pulpit witht he world watching me.

My position on whether I am perfect at the moment is the same as yours -

Who is the standard on what defines a person as being fat. I do not see him being super heavy or fat. Maybe you are super thin to the point of it being not healthy. But if you destroy your temple because you are too thin and you are not eating right it is just as bad. Because if you destroy God's temple then God will destroy you. I don't know; Maybe you struggle with trying to gain weight and so you see all people as fat. Maybe you just see a little bit of body fat on a person and you condemn them. I do not seek to condem people personally, but to lead people to Jesus Christ so as to allow Jesus to change them. If they struggle with being really overweight and they are a believer, then God can help them. But Alan Ballou is not fat. You are judging him way too harshly in my opinion. I know what being fat was and he is not fat. He does not appear to me as being overly gluttonous to me. A fat person who is very noticably fat and has problems as such in being that way. Besides, even Paul said....

"Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus."

I do not wish to talk about my own spirituality.

Because it would condemn you? See, according to you.... you cannot teach the Bible on sinless perfectionism unless you are perfect but yet you are unwilling to talk about your own perfection. Can you at least claim that you are perfect (Without going into any details)? Is that what you are claiming?

 

[Joshua_Generation]

sparkman

You really should do your research better than that if you want to be taken seriously in your critique. There are just so many errors in it.

For a start, although Pelagians believe that we are not born with a sin nature (and the scriptures are very weak on that), they do not believe that we continue without one. That is to say, we all fall and need a Saviour. Pelagius himself was indeed a Christian and even Augustine had to admit that he was a very holy man. Why would a noted theologian like him bother discussing the finer points of doctrine with an unsaved man? That is nonsense.

I guess I am a sinless perfectionist, if it is interpreted correctly and do not believe that when we come to Christ and thereafter we do not sin. Nor do I believe that a man cannot sin again once he is perfected. He can fall at any time because it is not by his strength that he can walk without sinning.

As for a gradual sanctification, show me where a man has testified to this? There isn't one who gradually gets holier and holier through his life till old age. In fact i find that those who reject entire sanctification to be still struggling with the same sins till they die.

There is nothing in the Bible that says that death is our friend and delivers us from sin. In fact there is a verse in the OT that says that as a tree falls so it lays.

I had a very hard time for 17 years as a believer with an up and down experience and great struggles with my besetting sin which was anger. During that ime there was no improvement, but one day Christ imparted his nature to me, when I realised what crucified with him really meant, which enabled me to be without sin for quite a while.

Great error abounds with this doctrine and I agree with you that here are folk around who say thay do not sin and they are blind. Sinless means sinless in my book (and the Bible) and it means no sin of ignorance and no sin in the thoughts. There is a continuous need for a Saviour in this state, even more so.

I am afraid that you have been in contact with those who bring down this doctrine and are not genuine, and have been reading the wrong books.

This is the standard

No more no less. Absolute obedience. The rest of the verses you quote have been dealt with in other places, but once you set your mind on unbelief they will not reveal the truth to you.

Awesome post sister!
Sinless perfectionism is often times confused with walking in the divine nature. I still SIN, but certain SIN does not entangle me. I have control over sin, because sin is a choice not an action. Anyone who states SIN is an action is still bound to the lie from hell called sin consciousness and cannot fathom that Grace is not just God's unmerited favor, but also God's ability to do in my spirit, what I cannot do in the flesh. This is the whole message of Romans 7 & 8. If they cannot fathom grace, they will never come to understand that righteousness is position and not personal performance. If they cannot understand righteousness consciousness they will never see Jesus Christ as a blue print for how us to know how to live down here.

Many till never fully grasp that jesus, while GOd, did not walk the earth as God, he laid down his God powers as Jesus and did what he did because he was anointed with power and the Holy Ghost and not because of his divine powers as Jesus Christ.

I know I am on the right track when I preach grace and people scream at me that I am saying people have a license to sin.

I know I am on the right track when I preach righteousness and people tell me the Bible says I have to go to church, pray, fast and read the Bible to be righteous and holy.

I know I am on the right track when I preach Jesus and people tell me there is no way they can do what he did, because he did things because he was God.

I know I am on the right track when I preach SIN is choice and get attacked that I am preaching sinless perfection.

I know I am on the right track when I preach that the church only needs to do what Jesus did, teach, preach, heal, demonstrate and deliver and people tell me I am preaching a false gospel.

I know I am on the right track when I preach being a partaker of the divine nature and people get mad and tell me to stop acting like a little god.

Somewhere along the way the christian culture and tradition defined SIN as an action and that we are helpless over it, but that is not at all what the Bible Teaches.

Gen 3
Gen 4
James 1
James 4
1 John 2

These passages prove SIN is a choice and not an action and not something we do not have control over. Either Christ died for your sins or he did not.

The church has been lied to in this area, because Satan knows that if sons and daughters ever realized what the Word really says about having victory over sin, which is not sinless perfection, because we all will fall, but it is about knowing that I am not bound by sin and can indeed overcome the wicked one, because the Word of God abides in me!

 

[Jason0047]

I would appreciate it if you would not twist my words like that. You know that is not what I am saying in the least, your perfection doctrine is most likely the most dangerous and the most damaging belief I have ever encountered in Christianity.
I used to go to another forum and someone made a testimony thread called sinless/ perfection. This poor kid became a Christian but his mentor was a sinless or perfection believer and this poor kid was so confused because he tried so hard to live up to such standards but always failed he never could be sinless or perfect and he thought that was what Christians were supposed to be. not three weeks later he lost his faith because of ppl like you, then many ppl posted in that thread how they went through the same thing.

If there is one thing that infuriates me that actually makes me lose my cool is when ppl are being hurt by such a thing like your doctrine. Who are you or anyone else to do this to ppl? Do you have any idea the damage your belief does to ppl? any idea how it drives them from God's arms?

The parable of the sower says there are those who will fall away due to the cares of this life and or persecution. He did not endure not because of sinless perfectionism but because he preferred his own sin. Did you talk to him and did he say that he fell away because he could not please God in being perfect? My guess is that is not the case.

As for condoning sin: Well, when you say that a believer cannot stop sinning, then that is exactly what you are doing. You are condoning sin. Just like an alcholic is condoing alcohol in him saying he can drink on his way to being sober free.