Determinism??

[MarcR]

It seems that everyone would have a degree of Calvinism in them since they would agree God determined if and when they would be born

I accept that premise whether or not Calvin agreed with it. For it to be Calvinism; IMO, it would be necessary to believe it in full agreement with all or most of the tenets of Calvanism.

One of the central teachings of Jesus is love of enemies and desire that all come to repentance and forgiveness.

IMO, Calvin's treatment of those who disagreed with him disqualifies him to teach in the Church.

 

[MarcR]

the existence of prophecy is a strong argument for the existence of some form of 'theistic determinism'

View attachment 118404

I believe that God can, and does have foreknowledge of the future without manipulating people's freewill (except in very rare exceptions).

 

[Gr8grace]

I know that I have posted this elsewhere; but it seems to fit here.

IMO, God created mankind because He wanted a creature able to receive and return His love.

The price God paid for a creature able to love Him was He got a creature able to reject His love.

Love must, by its nature, be volitional.

God was faced with a choice between preventing both sin and love or preventing neither sin nor love; because love cannot exist without the possibility of its rejection; which is the essence is what sin is .

To make love possible; God chose to temporarily permit sin to exist; since the alternative is a world without love.

I would like those who believe that God's election is independent of freewill to explain why God permits evil in the world.

Lots of people would do well to listen to you. You have a lot of knowledge in the scriptures.

I would also like to add......His Grace, mercy and perfect justice would not be known to his creatures if He did not allow us to sin by our own volition.

Our freewill choice to believe upon His Son, reveals His love,grace,mercy and perfect justice. All attributes of God that we would not know without a freewill to sin and a freewill to be saved from the consequence of that sin.

The only person that was determined in advance to die from sin is the Lord Jesus Christ. All men have the opportunity, from their personal volition to be declared justified through His Son......no man is left out of making that choice. Other wise His prefect justice would be less than perfect and He would not be a righteous judge.

If even ONE man was denied the opportunity to believe on His Son, He would be UNJUST.

New American Standard Bible
Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns; Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved; He will judge the peoples with equity."

If he saved ONE person through His Sovereignty or denied ONE person of their choice to believe through His sovereignty, His perfect justice as the Judge would be compromised.

He can't use one divine attribute(sovereignty) to compromise another divine attribute(perfect Justice or righteousness.)

 

[Blain]

Oh.... is this where the whole predestination belief comes from? Like how some say God created ppl to go to hell and others to heaven?

 

[crossnote]

Oh.... is this where the whole predestination belief comes from? Like how some say God created ppl to go to hell and others to heaven?

No, that is double predestination, that says people are destined to go to hell as well as heaven, something definitely not taught in Scripture, rather it comes about when man's reasoning goes beyond Scripture.

Rather here is where predestination comes from...

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
(Rom 8:29-30)


According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
(Eph 1:4-5)

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
(Eph 1:10-11)

 

[atwhatcost]

Determinism is the opposite of free will.

Naturalistic determinism is a belief that the way things are directly or indirectly determines the way things will be without any need for decision on any one's part.

Theistic determinism is the belief that nothing happens outside God's will; and everything that happens is directly attributable to God's action or intervention.

Thanks. Now we're getting somewhere.

So, according to that definition, I am a theistic determinist. I merely do not believe we can't help it.

And, I still don't believe in free will, since will is governed by nature. BUT, I do believe free agency. Here's a link that explains the differences.

 

[atwhatcost]

Can we throw in 'compatiblism' (no not cannibalism) into the mix, which has 'both' man's will being kept intact even through God's determined course of action...ugh, I burnout quickly on these philosophical discussions.

I (the Calvinist woman, as opposed to Marc lol) don't think so. We're not compatible. Our will is to hide in darkness to keep our sin. (John 3:18-20.) God's will is to knock whosoever-will out into the light and expose the sin.

 

[atwhatcost]

I accept that premise whether or not Calvin agreed with it. For it to be Calvinism; IMO, it would be necessary to believe it in full agreement with all or most of the tenets of Calvanism.

One of the central teachings of Jesus is love of enemies and desire that all come to repentance and forgiveness.

IMO, Calvin's treatment of those who disagreed with him disqualifies him to teach in the Church.

That depends on which version of Calvinism you're eluding to. Do we modern-day Calvinists believe everything Calvin believed? Nope. He got stuff wrong. Do we believe in TULIP? Yupper.

That's actually why I'm against the name Calvinist. We don't follow Calvin. We really are Christians because we follow Christ. I accept the title simply because many folks wouldn't know a Reformed Christian if we took them to church and then out for brunch afterwards. They'd just notice something was different about the service, and, in our case, man, do we know great breakfast joints. lol.

 

[atwhatcost]

Oh.... is this where the whole predestination belief comes from? Like how some say God created ppl to go to hell and others to heaven?

No, it comes from the end of Romans Chapter 8 and much of Chapter 9. lol

And, if you want to get precise, God only created two people. The rest of us came from them and their descendants.

But, yeah, God did know, all along, (which also gets out of precise, since God created time, so lives both outside and inside of it, but isn't effected by it, so there was no "this is the moment God decided...", since he is omniscient holding all knowledge at once without effort), who the whosoever will believe were (John 3:16-21), because the Father chose them, (John 6:35-40), and Jesus gets them all.

As for who would go to hell? Well, it seems to me if he knew who he chose to go to heaven, than yeah, he also knows who doesn't. (As I see it, that's the implication behind Rom. 8:28, which takes you back to the end of Romans 8 again. lol) I don't know if that's a reformed concept. That's merely something I think. I could be wrong.

 

[atwhatcost]

Lots of people would do well to listen to you. You have a lot of knowledge in the scriptures.

I would also like to add......His Grace, mercy and perfect justice would not be known to his creatures if He did not allow us to sin by our own volition.

Our freewill choice to believe upon His Son, reveals His love,grace,mercy and perfect justice. All attributes of God that we would not know without a freewill to sin and a freewill to be saved from the consequence of that sin.

The only person that was determined in advance to die from sin is the Lord Jesus Christ. All men have the opportunity, from their personal volition to be declared justified through His Son......no man is left out of making that choice. Other wise His prefect justice would be less than perfect and He would not be a righteous judge.

If even ONE man was denied the opportunity to believe on His Son, He would be UNJUST.

New American Standard Bible
Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns; Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved; He will judge the peoples with equity."

If he saved ONE person through His Sovereignty or denied ONE person of their choice to believe through His sovereignty, His perfect justice as the Judge would be compromised.

He can't use one divine attribute(sovereignty) to compromise another divine attribute(perfect Justice or righteousness.)

Well, okay, but you're missing a lot of the implications for free will, and showing a good deal of the problem in calling it free will. So, you were saved by something you willed? There's the problem. That's a separate way to salvation than through Christ. It says you deserved it because you willed it. This goes against what the Bible says.

 

[crossnote]

I (the Calvinist woman, as opposed to Marc lol) don't think so. We're not compatible. Our will is to hide in darkness to keep our sin. (John 3:18-20.) God's will is to knock whosoever-will out into the light and expose the sin.

What I'm trying to express by 'compatibleism' is the notion that ...

1.Man is 100% sovereign
2. Man is 100% responsible for his decisions (otherwise how can man be judged).
So that..
Events happen according to God's predetermined purpose in such a way that keeps man's moral decisions accountable.

 

[Gr8grace]

That depends on which version of Calvinism you're eluding to. Do we modern-day Calvinists believe everything Calvin believed? Nope. He got stuff wrong. Do we believe in TULIP? Yupper.

That's actually why I'm against the name Calvinist. We don't follow Calvin. We really are Christians because we follow Christ. I accept the title simply because many folks wouldn't know a Reformed Christian if we took them to church and then out for brunch afterwards. They'd just notice something was different about the service, and, in our case, man, do we know great breakfast joints. lol.

Its because tulip is so subjective."you don't believe in MY version of tulip."

An informed believer will KNOW when He is in a reformed church. The reformed Church is good at hiding their true beliefs To new or uniformed believers. The Arminian is just as skilled at this as the Calvinist.

 

[crossnote]

Calvin was in the pre-TULIP era.
His main push dealt with Covenant Theology.
He did not deal with predestination until Vol #3 of his Institutes.

 

[atwhatcost]

What I'm trying to express by 'compatibleism' is the notion that ...

1.Man is 100% sovereign
2. Man is 100% responsible for his decisions (otherwise how can man be judged).
So that..
Events happen according to God's predetermined purpose in such a way that keeps man's moral decisions accountable.

I can't answer yet, since "sovereign" is throwing me for a loop. Both definitions (once I nix king, queen or old British coin lol) include the word "supreme." We're not supreme no matter how you take it. So, I don't get what you mean by sovereign. Sorry.

 

[atwhatcost]

Its because tulip is so subjective."you don't believe in MY version of tulip."

An informed believer will KNOW when He is in a reformed church. The reformed Church is good at hiding their true beliefs To new or uniformed believers. The Arminian is just as skilled at this as the Calvinist.

One has to become informed first. Many aren't. That's what I meant. (And we're no more hiding what we believe than Arminians. Let's be real, if you know what you believe, why hide it? Neither group is ashamed.)

 

[Gr8grace]

Well, okay, but you're missing a lot of the implications for free will, and showing a good deal of the problem in calling it free will. So, you were saved by something you willed? There's the problem. That's a separate way to salvation than through Christ. It says you deserved it because you willed it. This goes against what the Bible says.

No. It is because most Christians do not understand how salvation works.

All men can have a mustard seed of faith. It is the holy Spirit that makes that faith effectual. It was not any mans mustard seed of faith that was effectual, it was the Holy Spirit that made that weak faith enough for salvation. It is why no man can boast. The Holy Spirit made it effectual and the mans(freewill) mustard seed of faith was not effectual. It is why salvation is equal opportunity and equal privilege for ALL.

God has set eternity on every mans heart(right lobe/mind) and the Holy Spirit takes our weak non-effectual mustard seed of freewill faith and makes it effectual for our salvation. It is the Holy Spirit that makes the weak freewill faith that every man can produce by his freewill and makes it effectual for salvation.

This is why the "faith is dead with out works" crowd is so very wrong. It was the OBJECT of our faith that saved us. Not our ineffectual mustard seed of freewill faith.

 

[atwhatcost]

Calvin was in the pre-TULIP era.
His main push dealt with Covenant Theology.
He did not deal with predestination until Vol #3 of his Institutes.

The dude had a lot to say. LOL

I've started writing a series of novels that will say (more hidden than Calvin's style, of course, since they are novels) a lot of what I have to say. A big chunk of what I have to say is about government. I don't get to the heart of that until the seventh and last novel. It doesn't mean it's less important to me. It means I need to get the reader to understand some different concepts before I go for one of the biggest concepts I believe.

 

[atwhatcost]

No. It is because most Christians do not understand how salvation works.

All men can have a mustard seed of faith. It is the holy Spirit that makes that faith effectual. It was not any mans mustard seed of faith that was effectual, it was the Holy Spirit that made that weak faith enough for salvation. It is why no man can boast. The Holy Spirit made it effectual and the mans(freewill) mustard seed of faith was not effectual. It is why salvation is equal opportunity and equal privilege for ALL.

God has set eternity on every mans heart(right lobe/mind) and the Holy Spirit takes our weak non-effectual mustard seed of freewill faith and makes it effectual for our salvation. It is the Holy Spirit that makes the same faith that every man can produce by his freewill and makes it effectual for salvation.

This is why the "faith is dead with out works" crowd is so very wrong. It was the OBJECT of our faith that saved us. Not our ineffectual mustard seed of freewill faith.

Okay, so not our will that saves, but our mustard seed faith that saves?

I go with dead is dead and Christ regenerated us. (Not by our works.)
2 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness towards us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works,which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

But, yeah, faith without works crowd is wrong. (The sinless crowd is wrong too. I simply have no idea why we're bringing up unrelated wrongedness. lol)

 

[MarcR]

Well, okay, but you're missing a lot of the implications for free will, and showing a good deal of the problem in calling it free will. So, you were saved by something you willed? There's the problem. That's a separate way to salvation than through Christ. It says you deserved it because you willed it. This goes against what the Bible says.

I don't believe that we can will ourselves saved!

We are told 2 Pe 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
KJV

But the Lord knows that it will not be that way; because our will allows us to reject His payment for our sin and His Lordship.

We have been returned to the same choice Adam and Eve had: to accept God's love on His terms or reject it and be lost.

Rv 22:17
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
KJV

 

[MarcR]

What I'm trying to express by 'compatibleism' is the notion that ...

1.Man is 100% sovereign
2. Man is 100% responsible for his decisions (otherwise how can man be judged).
So that..
Events happen according to God's predetermined purpose in such a way that keeps man's moral decisions accountable.

I believe that God is 100% sovereign; but chooses to exercise His sovereignty in such a way that he does not preclude people from accepting or rejecting His will, and the attendant consequences.