Sound Doctrine or By the Seat of Our Pants

[shad]

There are thousands of believers that have the Holy Spirit and understand very little about the scriptures and have no doctrine whatsoever. They may read the scriptures and that is important, but they don't understand what they read even though they have the Spirit. Many of them have settled to the fact that what they are experiencing in their life as a believer is all there is and that simply is not true, it happens on this site all the time. This is not said to discredit those precious believers in any way but rather to show the importance of being under a pastor/teacher, who labors in the word and doctrine so that he can present the word in such a way so that believers will grow in grace and knowledge of Christ. Hopefully, they will learn to study the word diligently whether they be a man or woman.

When we learn the scriptures and we are taught doctrine in a categorical way, we learn how to think with God in that category of doctrine. The average believer may be able to give a general understanding about being justified but they have no understanding how the Father sees us through that justification or what the blood of Christ and the resurrection had to do with our justification. Some think it is a progressive justification and others are grounded in this doctrine and know that they need to be justified only once through the blood of Christ.

You can't tell me that the Holy Spirit tells one believer they can lose their salvation and another that it's not possible because they have been sealed by the Spirit until the day of redemption. Someone is wrong and it is going to take the right understanding of the written word to straighten that out. Many believers live in a subjective faith with no promise from God because they never have been grounded in the word that produces objective faith with a promise. The Holy Spirit is only a Spirit of promise through of the promises of God that we have through the written word.

 

[VW]

These statements are so far from the truth, that I do not know where to begin. There are millions of believers who have no experience with the Holy Spirit except for the rebirth. They have never learned to hear His voice, because they are not even taught to hear His voice. Basically this is because the bible is taught as the whole truth, and all that a believer needs to know God. There is no need for the Spirit in what you say.

If one has all of the doctrines of the church, every last one, and believes every one completely, and does not have the Spirit of God, then they are none of His. Simple truth, according to the scriptures. The new birth is by the Spirit, and are we then to ignore the Spirit and rather lean to our own study of the bible to grow that which was begin by the Spirit. If that is what one does, then that one will not grow in the Lord, they will not ever know Him, personally, but rather have a distant knowledge which will puff them up rather than bring about the humility of knowing the Lord, personally, as a friend and savior and as God.

The Lord gave me a word several years ago. I would share it with you here, but I understand that this is not something you would believe in, as it comes by subjective experience from the Holy Spirit. You have placed the Holy Spirit in the place of subjection to the written word. Nothing I can say will show you the error of this. So, I will believe in the Spirit, and you believe in the written word. Peace to you.

 

[aspen]

There are thousands of believers that have the Holy Spirit and understand very little about the scriptures and have no doctrine whatsoever. They may read the scriptures and that is important, but they don't understand what they read even though they have the Spirit. Many of them have settled to the fact that what they are experiencing in their life as a believer is all there is and that simply is not true, it happens on this site all the time. This is not said to discredit those precious believers in any way but rather to show the importance of being under a pastor/teacher, who labors in the word and doctrine so that he can present the word in such a way so that believers will grow in grace and knowledge of Christ. Hopefully, they will learn to study the word diligently whether they be a man or woman.

When we learn the scriptures and we are taught doctrine in a categorical way, we learn how to think with God in that category of doctrine. The average believer may be able to give a general understanding about being justified but they have no understanding how the Father sees us through that justification or what the blood of Christ and the resurrection had to do with our justification. Some think it is a progressive justification and others are grounded in this doctrine and know that they need to be justified only once through the blood of Christ.

You can't tell me that the Holy Spirit tells one believer they can lose their salvation and another that it's not possible because they have been sealed by the Spirit until the day of redemption. Someone is wrong and it is going to take the right understanding of the written word to straighten that out. Many believers live in a subjective faith with no promise from God because they never have been grounded in the word that produces objective faith with a promise. The Holy Spirit is only a Spirit of promise through of the promises of God that we have through the written word.

You seem to be putting a lot of emphasis on doctrinal correctness. Doesn't God work in the hearts of people who are cognitively impaired, children, illiterate folks, uneducated people, etc? Do you believe anyone outside the clergy from the 1st to 19th century could explain justification to your satisfaction? I just learned what justification is about 10 years ago and I am almost 40 - I think God really could careless - He calls us to love and serve, period.

Fundamentalists often speculate on the spiritual condition of Mother Teresa because she never talked about complicated doctrinal ideas - when asked about in depth doctrinal concepts, she would just smile and continue feeding the child in her arms. Therefore many people thought she didn't know God at all and needed to be saved - now that is really messed up - a women devotes here who life to love and people call her Christianity into question because she is not focused on knowledge of doctrine.

Incredible!

 

[shad]

You seem to be putting a lot of emphasis on doctrinal correctness. Doesn't God work in the hearts of people who are cognitively impaired, children, illiterate folks, uneducated people, etc? Do you believe anyone outside the clergy from the 1st to 19th century could explain justification to your satisfaction? I just learned what justification is about 10 years ago and I am almost 40 - I think God really could careless - He calls us to love and serve, period.

Fundamentalists often speculate on the spiritual condition of Mother Teresa because she never talked about complicated doctrinal ideas - when asked about in depth doctrinal concepts, she would just smile and continue feeding the child in her arms. Therefore many people thought she didn't know God at all and needed to be saved - now that is really messed up - a women devotes here who life to love and people call her Christianity into question because she is not focused on knowledge of doctrine.

Incredible!

Here's an example. Some believe that Christ's blood, that was shed for the remission of sins, only paid for the sins that are past. They believe that to mean that the blood only paid for the sins that had been in their life before they were saved but they are responsible for the sin in their life after they are saved. The blood only covered the sins of the past. This doctrine is taught in pulpits worldwide. Why is that? People believe it and when they fail or fall into sin they have this fear that God does not accept them nor approve of them because of their failure and even rejects them because of the sin. This doctrine changes the love and justice of God that was poured out on the cross. This doctrine nullifies the mercy of regeneration.

They were accepted in the beloved when they first believed through the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, but now they have to repent of sin or lose their salvation. That goes against the very nature of God and the justification of the blood of Christ that satisfied the justice of God. If believers misunderstand justification through the blood of Christ they will have a wrong understanding of the nature of God and live in condemnation and guilt because of sin. This very condemnation they live in is the condemnation that was removed from them when they accepted and believed upon Christ for salvation. Do you still think that God could care less? Are we suppose to believe that when we are justified freely by grace through the blood of Christ that God does not care if we get that right in our understanding? Of course He cares.

God the Father sent His only begotten Son to die on a cross and shed His blood so that when we believe, all our sins are cleansed and washed away and we are given a gift of perfect righteousness from the Father. Our sins were put on the body of Christ on that tree and buried through death and on the third day He was raised from the dead without sin for our justification. You better believe that justification is important. We need to learn it, live it and continue to build up others in it.

 

[VW]

Here's an example. Some believe that Christ's blood, that was shed for the remission of sins, only paid for the sins that are past. They believe that to mean that the blood only paid for the sins that had been in their life before they were saved but they are responsible for the sin in their life after they are saved. The blood only covered the sins of the past. This doctrine is taught in pulpits worldwide. Why is that? People believe it and when they fail or fall into sin they have this fear that God does not accept them nor approve of them because of their failure and even rejects them because of the sin. This doctrine changes the love and justice of God that was poured out on the cross. This doctrine nullifies the mercy of regeneration.

They were accepted in the beloved when they first believed through the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, but now they have to repent of sin or lose their salvation. That goes against the very nature of God and the justification of the blood of Christ that satisfied the justice of God. If believers misunderstand justification through the blood of Christ they will have a wrong understanding of the nature of God and live in condemnation and guilt because of sin. This very condemnation they live in is the condemnation that was removed from them when they accepted and believed upon Christ for salvation. Do you still think that God could care less? Are we suppose to believe that when we are justified freely by grace through the blood of Christ that God does not care if we get that right in our understanding? Of course He cares.

God the Father sent His only begotten Son to die on a cross and shed His blood so that when we believe, all our sins are cleansed and washed away and we are given a gift of perfect righteousness from the Father. Our sins were put on the body of Christ on that tree and buried through death and on the third day He was raised from the dead without sin for our justification. You better believe that justification is important. We need to learn it, live it and continue to build up others in it.

Justification is a legal way to describe what I know that I have in the Spirit, every moment of my life. Why? Because He is the life of Christ in me, all the time. And that life works by the cross. Without the cross, justification would be meaningless, and the Spirit makes the cross real in me. By the Spirit, I am putting to death the deeds of the flesh, in Christ on the cross. I don't need to know about justification, I live it. It is the Spirit's work to make this so in us.

 

[VW]

Eternal life works in me by the Spirit of Christ. Why? Because as He lives in me, so I live in Christ, in His resurrection. It is not knowledge, it is a living fact by the Holy Spirit. Every promise of the new covenant, every blessing which is given to us in the New Testament, is in Christ. The only way that these are obtained are by the working of the Spirit of God, by faith in Him. If I believe in the promises, without believing in the One who makes the promises to become fact in me, then I am to be most pitied.

 

[aspen]

Here's an example. Some believe that Christ's blood, that was shed for the remission of sins, only paid for the sins that are past. They believe that to mean that the blood only paid for the sins that had been in their life before they were saved but they are responsible for the sin in their life after they are saved. The blood only covered the sins of the past. This doctrine is taught in pulpits worldwide. Why is that? People believe it and when they fail or fall into sin they have this fear that God does not accept them nor approve of them because of their failure and even rejects them because of the sin. This doctrine changes the love and justice of God that was poured out on the cross. This doctrine nullifies the mercy of regeneration.

They were accepted in the beloved when they first believed through the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, but now they have to repent of sin or lose their salvation. That goes against the very nature of God and the justification of the blood of Christ that satisfied the justice of God. If believers misunderstand justification through the blood of Christ they will have a wrong understanding of the nature of God and live in condemnation and guilt because of sin. This very condemnation they live in is the condemnation that was removed from them when they accepted and believed upon Christ for salvation. Do you still think that God could care less? Are we suppose to believe that when we are justified freely by grace through the blood of Christ that God does not care if we get that right in our understanding? Of course He cares.

God the Father sent His only begotten Son to die on a cross and shed His blood so that when we believe, all our sins are cleansed and washed away and we are given a gift of perfect righteousness from the Father. Our sins were put on the body of Christ on that tree and buried through death and on the third day He was raised from the dead without sin for our justification. You better believe that justification is important. We need to learn it, live it and continue to build up others in it.

I see I didn't even make a dent......

 

[greatkraw]

you know The Spirit cannot even START to enlighten believers unless there is a direct line of communication from God to the Believer ie they are in fellowship

there are millions of people who believe; subsequently sin; and remain out of fellowship for most of their lives
that means that, although they read the Word, all they have at their disposal is their own limited human reason

 

[greatkraw]

You seem to be putting a lot of emphasis on doctrinal correctness. Doesn't God work in the hearts of people who are cognitively impaired, children, illiterate folks, uneducated people, etc? Do you believe anyone outside the clergy from the 1st to 19th century could explain justification to your satisfaction? I just learned what justification is about 10 years ago and I am almost 40 - I think God really could careless - He calls us to love and serve, period.

Fundamentalists often speculate on the spiritual condition of Mother Teresa because she never talked about complicated doctrinal ideas - when asked about in depth doctrinal concepts, she would just smile and continue feeding the child in her arms. Therefore many people thought she didn't know God at all and needed to be saved - now that is really messed up - a women devotes here who life to love and people call her Christianity into question because she is not focused on knowledge of doctrine.

Incredible!

was she ever asked how she knows she was saved?

if her answer was her good works.......................

 

[aspen]

was she ever asked how she knows she was saved?

if her answer was her good works.......................

eeeeesh

Do you really think the sanctification of her heart......her capacity to love and serve in the manner she did her whole life has to be checked by asking a question so mundane as "Have you asked Jesus into your heart?"

It is like asking a surgeon if he really attended kindergarten - and if he didn't he is lying about being a surgeon

 

[VW]

was she ever asked how she knows she was saved?

if her answer was her good works.......................

Found this link. Interesting reading.

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/teresa/general.htm

 

[greatkraw]

"These people are waiting to die. What are you telling them to prepare them for death and eternity? She(Mother Teresa) replied candidly,'We tell them to pray to their Bhagwan, to their gods.'"

 

[aspen]

"These people are waiting to die. What are you telling them to prepare them for death and eternity? She(Mother Teresa) replied candidly,'We tell them to pray to their Bhagwan, to their gods.'"

What would you do? Hand them a four spiritual laws track? The fact is, God is working in their hearts - we are not called to derail His work with our doctrine. Jesus said that you will know them by their fruit - their fruit does not include their doctrine.

Jesus is the only way to God.....there is more than one way to Jesus - John Fisher

 

[charisenexcelcis]

What would you do? Hand them a four spiritual laws track? The fact is, God is working in their hearts - we are not called to derail His work with our doctrine. Jesus said that you will know them by their fruit - their fruit does not include their doctrine.

Jesus is the only way to God.....there is more than one way to Jesus - John Fisher

Wow, I disagree with you on this one. When someone asks me what they must do to be saved, the opportunity that the Spirit has brought could not be more obvious. I reply, "Turn away from your former life, put your trust in Jesus and His work on the cross and He will give you eternal life."

 

[aspen]

Wow, I disagree with you on this one. When someone asks me what they must do to be saved, the opportunity that the Spirit has brought could not be more obvious. I reply, "Turn away from your former life, put your trust in Jesus and His work on the cross and He will give you eternal life."

I realize that my post is risky.

However, I think there is something to the idea.

I used to seek out LDS members in order to witness to them about Jesus - I have read all their doctrine and spent the past twenty years studying their beliefs and culture. I thought that I was doing the right thing by telling them about Jesus and making sure that they understood that their Jesus was different than mine. I was very convincing and seeded doubt about mormonism within many hearts. Then I realized what was happening - only 1% of the people that leave Mormonism join another church! It is true - the vast majority, rightfully feel duped by organized religion and vow to never let it happen again.

Instead of liberating mormons from their slavish and deceitful doctrine, I was crushing their faith - how horrifying! Faith is a gift from God - it is the sanctifying force God uses to teach the heart to love and I was treating as if it was evil and invalid. Not my intention at all, but it was what was happening.

So, although I disagree with LDS doctrine, I never ever question a mormons faith - I always tell them to keep learning to love God and others - continue to ask God for guidance, AND continue to study and pray about their own doctrine - God is in charge of correcting those mistakes.

Witnessing through doctrine only breeds stubborn contempt - witnessing with the heart inspires people to run after God, who will correct whatever needs correcting - after all, we all have errors in our doctrine and room to grow in our understanding.

After I realized this, I have noticed that 2 LDS I care about very much and have encouraged over the years have realized that their religion is no longer big enough for their understanding of God and His will for us.

Be careful how you witness to people - do not treat them like a theory that needs to be soundly defeated - love them and encourage them to study their own doctrine - trust that God will meet them where they are at and straighten out their understanding of doctrine while He is doing the work of sanctifying their hearts.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Risky is too gentle a word.....

 

[shad]

I grew up with a friend that was pretty much a wild coconut like the rest of us, who had a severe life threatening accident he recovered from. The Mormons got to him and in a good way his life was turned around. No more wild lifestyle and he was happy and a dedicated Mormon. I had become a Christian and met up with Him and we talked. He was polite and courteous but wanted nothing to do with the cross, the blood of Christ or His death, burial or resurrection. He became a good person living a moral life but went from the evil part of the tree of knowledge to the good part. I had no witness in my spirit that he was a child of God even though he had a form of human love. He did not have the Holy Spirit and there was no fellowship. I did not force any doctrine down his throat but I did want to know what He believed in his heart concerning Christ coming in the flesh and being crucified on the cross.

The gospel of Christ meant very little to him. He was a deceived man that was improved morally through religion but he had no life in him because he did not have the Son. 'He that has the Son has life and he that has not the Son has not life' / 1Jn 5:12. Jesus said in John 6:27-29...

27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

My friend was laboring for the meat that perishes. He never received the meat that endures unto everlasting life from the Son. He was not doing the works of God because he did not believe upon the Son. He was blinded by the god of this world and a religious system that operates from the good side of the tree of knowledge. He is a lost soul who labors in unfruitful works. His heart was not right and he got it wrong. He became a good person but it had nothing to do with the goodness of God. He was led to a moral repentance through moral goodness that came through human effort and through the sensibilities of the flesh. It was a way that seemed right and clean to him but he was never washed and cleansed from sin by the blood of Christ.

The worst thing he could have done is to continue in the doctrine that he learned from the Mormons. He had an opportunity to turn from it and receive the Son but he refused because he was deceived by his own moral goodness. The light of moral goodness that operates under the tree of knowledge will surely end up in spiritual death. He had life through moral goodness but not life through the Son of God,

 

[VW]

I realize that my post is risky.

However, I think there is something to the idea.

I used to seek out LDS members in order to witness to them about Jesus - I have read all their doctrine and spent the past twenty years studying their beliefs and culture. I thought that I was doing the right thing by telling them about Jesus and making sure that they understood that their Jesus was different than mine. I was very convincing and seeded doubt about mormonism within many hearts. Then I realized what was happening - only 1% of the people that leave Mormonism join another church! It is true - the vast majority, rightfully feel duped by organized religion and vow to never let it happen again.

Instead of liberating mormons from their slavish and deceitful doctrine, I was crushing their faith - how horrifying! Faith is a gift from God - it is the sanctifying force God uses to teach the heart to love and I was treating as if it was evil and invalid. Not my intention at all, but it was what was happening.

So, although I disagree with LDS doctrine, I never ever question a mormons faith - I always tell them to keep learning to love God and others - continue to ask God for guidance, AND continue to study and pray about their own doctrine - God is in charge of correcting those mistakes.

Witnessing through doctrine only breeds stubborn contempt - witnessing with the heart inspires people to run after God, who will correct whatever needs correcting - after all, we all have errors in our doctrine and room to grow in our understanding.

After I realized this, I have noticed that 2 LDS I care about very much and have encouraged over the years have realized that their religion is no longer big enough for their understanding of God and His will for us.

Be careful how you witness to people - do not treat them like a theory that needs to be soundly defeated - love them and encourage them to study their own doctrine - trust that God will meet them where they are at and straighten out their understanding of doctrine while He is doing the work of sanctifying their hearts.

I never confuse church attendance with being saved, with knowing Jesus and through Him the Father. They are not the same. When I was forced to examine what I believed by the Lord, I went and sought a church to join. I let the Spirit lead me to the church He wanted me in. I never joined. I made bonds with many brothers and sisters there, which are still active today, and this I consider to be the church, the bonds of love that are ours in the Spirit of Christ by His love. I later learned that the reason I was sent there was to encourage and pray and to be called as a prophet, by the church leadership.

I can understand your friend's reaction. It is hard to find out that you have been deceived. It is very difficult to forgive being deceived. Some blame God for deceiving them, and others blame the church. But the body of Christ does not deceive, ever. It is us who deceive, with our natural understanding, with our own beliefs and doctrines, with our traditions which have no foundation in anything other than the wisdom of men. The Spirit of Christ will never deceive anyone who receives the love of the truth. But there are those who refuse to receive the love of the truth, who love doing wickedness and hate righteousness. To them, God will and I believe He is now sending, a deluding influence, that they may all believe what is false.

But for us who are being saved by His power, it is very important that we never let a root of bitterness spring up in us about these things, for that is the path to loosing the Spirit's unction. If we would see those we love saved, then we must take the attitude of Paul, and others who were used of God to see the salvation of the lost, we must seek the power of the Spirit's testimony in and through us, and in those we love. And we must demonstrate the love of Christ, for all, through us.

I can hate the deception, and if allowed, I will pray and wait for the Spirit's leading, and let the love of God be manifest in all that I do. In fact, I will seek that His love be in all that I do.

 

[shad]

Is 28:9,10 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

1Cor 3:2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

Heb 5:12-14 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Sound doctrine is only for those that have been weaned from the milk. Many of you have been a Christian for years and have never been weaned from the milk of God's word. Every time some of you are fed strong meat it offends you because you are so used to having milk to comfort you. More people argue over the meat of God's word because that do not know how to receive it and bear up under it. All they get at church from their pulpit in milk, milk, and more milk and if the pastor slipped up and gave a little meat, he feels that he has to apologize less he offends one of the sheep and gets an email telling him that they didn't like what he said.

The difference between milk and meat is that you have to chew meat, you have to masticate and assimilate meat before you swallow it. Some people would rather drink milk instead of having to chew on the meat for awhile because they are spiritually lazy and do not what to exercise themselves to discern good and evil. I did not say to discern sin, I said good and evil because that is what the Bible teaches. Are you for what the Bible teaches or just interested in your own take on things through your milky interpretation and understanding. God wants to raise some of you up to be be pastors and full-time missionaries, but it will never happen if all you want is milk. Even some of the more intellectual types on this site come across knowledgeable but can't take the meat when it's offered. They chew a little and then choke on it only having to spit it out because they couldn't hack it or they get reactionary because they are offended.

 

[aspen]

I never claimed that Mormons teach sound doctrine - my point is that if it is as faulty, as I know it to be, I trust God to reveal it to the person who is truly seeking after Him. The more they study the more they will realize the errors within their doctrine - it is the Mormons who do not study their doctrine that are the least likely to question it.

It is easy to not study and rely on the spiteful arrogance of zealous believers to bolster their faith by persecuting them - Mormons really do believe that born again Christians are persecuting them when they are witnessing. I will not be apart of adding to their persecution complex.

I am called to love and despite our differences in doctrine, I will do so.