Sound Doctrine or By the Seat of Our Pants

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charisenexcelcis

Guest
#41
#41
aspen said:
I never claimed that Mormons teach sound doctrine - my point is that if it is as faulty, as I know it to be, I trust God to reveal it to the person who is truly seeking after Him. The more they study the more they will realize the errors within their doctrine - it is the Mormons who do not study their doctrine that are the least likely to question it.

It is easy to not study and rely on the spiteful arrogance of zealous believers to bolster their faith by persecuting them - Mormons really do believe that born again Christians are persecuting them when they are witnessing. I will not be apart of adding to their persecution complex.

I am called to love and despite our differences in doctrine, I will do so.
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Your assumption is that someone who would speak the plain truth would do so spitefully, arrogantly, and without love. Likewise you assume that the loving thing to do is to let them remain ignorant. When Paul came across the believers who were following the doctrines of John the Baptist, he did not leave them in their ignorance. When he spoke to the Athenians , he specifically called for them to leave their ignorance. The Biblical pattern is to proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ to every nation, creed, and people.
 
aspen

aspen

Banned
#42
Feb 3, 2010
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#42
charisenexcelcis said:
Your assumption is that someone who would speak the plain truth would do so spitefully, arrogantly, and without love. Likewise you assume that the loving thing to do is to let them remain ignorant. When Paul came across the believers who were following the doctrines of John the Baptist, he did not leave them in their ignorance. When he spoke to the Athenians , he specifically called for them to leave their ignorance. The Biblical pattern is to proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ to every nation, creed, and people.
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No, I should clarify, I was speaking from the perspective of a Mormon being witnessed to. It doesn't matter how nice the Christian is because the Mormon views the interaction as an attack on their testimony.
 
VW

VW

Banned
#43
Dec 22, 2009
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#43
greatkraw said:
you know The Spirit cannot even START to enlighten believers unless there is a direct line of communication from God to the Believer ie they are in fellowship

there are millions of people who believe; subsequently sin; and remain out of fellowship for most of their lives
that means that, although they read the Word, all they have at their disposal is their own limited human reason
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I agree with this up to the point where you say in fellowship. The method of communication between us and God is the Holy Spirit. He is God's voice in us and to us.
 
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greatkraw

Guest
#44
#44
VW said:
I agree with this up to the point where you say in fellowship. The method of communication between us and God is the Holy Spirit. He is God's voice in us and to us.
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to spell it out - unconfessed sin hinders communication
this is quenching the Spirit

the solution is 1 John 1 9
 
Nuhen

Nuhen

Banned
#45
Jan 22, 2010
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#45
The problem with "sound" doctrine is that we ALL think our doctrine is sound and judge the doctrines of others by our "sound" doctrine. Whether or not our doctrine is actually sound is another matter entirely, but our doctrine will always be sound to us and the doctrines of others will never be sound to us for that reason.

Nobody is going to say their doctrine is not sound.
 
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greatkraw

Guest
#46
#46
Nuhen said:
The problem with "sound" doctrine is that we ALL think our doctrine is sound and judge the doctrines of others by our "sound" doctrine. Whether or not our doctrine is actually sound is another matter entirely, but our doctrine will always be sound to us and the doctrines of others will never be sound to us for that reason.

Nobody is going to say their doctrine is not sound.
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you are right i have never met anyone with all their doctrine exactly right; except myself:)
 
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shad

Guest
#47
#47
Quote
'Jesus is the only way to God.....there is more than one way to Jesus - John Fisher'
Unquote

This is a very subtle statement that implies there is more than one gospel of Christ that leads to God. God the Father draws the sinner to His only begotten Son through the His death, burial and resurrection, for sin, for sins and for the sinner. The only way to the Father is through the finished work of Christ, who died and gave His life as a ransom for sin. The only way that a sinner can benefit from the finished work of Christ is to believe only by faith.

There is one Father who sent His only begotten Son, who died and shed His blood for all sinners, once and for all. There is only one gospel that reveals one Christ, that we believe by one faith that reconciles us to one God by one Spirit / Heb 10:12,14, 2Cor 5:14,18,19.

The church is one body and has only one faith in one Christ who is one Lord. This one faith has only one interpretation through one Spirit that reveals only one Jesus Christ that died on one cross. When Jesus prayed to the Father that they may be one as we are one this is the oneness that He was referring to, and not some abstract pseudo oneness that can only be understood by some elite class of followers / Eph 4:4-6, Jn 17:21-23.

The doctrine of oneness involves the Godhead and the believer who had been reconciled to God and set apart through Christ and has been given the Holy Spirit all by faith.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren.

Phil 2:2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

1Cor 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment .

All believers in Christ have the same Spirit, which is one Spirit that desires the same thing in the heart, in the mind, in speech and in judgment. Those that do not desire the same thing in Christ do not have the same Spirit and cause divisions, strife, envy and dissimulation which is evil.

Sound doctrine and one Spirit is what brings us into the unity of the faith and the unity of love with the same mind one towards another. Without these there is only strife and people operating in the energy of the flesh. We are one body but many members who are on this planet to reveal and magnify our head, which is Jesus Christ. He is the head of the body and we are members of His body, flesh and bones / Eph 4:13, 5:23,30, Col 1:18.
 
Nuhen

Nuhen

Banned
#48
Jan 22, 2010
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#48
shad said:
Quote
'Jesus is the only way to God.....there is more than one way to Jesus - John Fisher'
Unquote

This is a very subtle statement that implies there is more than one gospel of Christ that leads to God.
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That's not what the quote is saying at all. It's clear that Yeshua is the ONLY way to G-d, which is exactly what Yeshua himself said.
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
#49
#49
Nuhen said:
The problem with "sound" doctrine is that we ALL think our doctrine is sound and judge the doctrines of others by our "sound" doctrine. Whether or not our doctrine is actually sound is another matter entirely, but our doctrine will always be sound to us and the doctrines of others will never be sound to us for that reason.

Nobody is going to say their doctrine is not sound.
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But we do not have to agree with a person to believe that they have sound doctrines. For instance, in my opinion those who hold to midtribulation and postribution taking up of the saints have sound doctrine, even though I disagree with them. I do not believe that they have simply made this up in their heads for their own purposes. (I do wish that some of them would grant me the same assumption.) There are those who truly hold to unsound doctrines. But it is interesting that we often argue most vehemently for the things that matter least....
 
Nuhen

Nuhen

Banned
#50
Jan 22, 2010
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#50
charisenexcelcis said:
But we do not have to agree with a person to believe that they have sound doctrines. For instance, in my opinion those who hold to midtribulation and postribution taking up of the saints have sound doctrine, even though I disagree with them. I do not believe that they have simply made this up in their heads for their own purposes. (I do wish that some of them would grant me the same assumption.) There are those who truly hold to unsound doctrines. But it is interesting that we often argue most vehemently for the things that matter least....
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Eh, good point. There is a certain level of tolerance for sound doctrine that we don't agree with, but what happens when we go beyond that tolerance level?
 
Nuhen

Nuhen

Banned
#51
Jan 22, 2010
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#51
Actually, scratch that. I'm into establishing foundations before getting to the upper levels of the discussion. We should start by defining just what makes a doctrine sound.
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
#52
#52
Nuhen said:
Actually, scratch that. I'm into establishing foundations before getting to the upper levels of the discussion. We should start by defining just what makes a doctrine sound.
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Biblical backing with proper application of the principles of interpretation.
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
#54
#54
Nuhen said:
Which you define as...?
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1. consider the context
2. Understand the words
3. Understand the grammar
4. Grasp the author's intent
Study the background
6. Interpret scripture by scripture
7. Carefully interpret figures of speech, symbols, types, parables, and allegories.
8. Pay careful attention to Hebrew idioms and Hebrew poetry
9. Be conservative in interpreting apocalyptic passages.
10. Do not build doctrine from single references.
11. Compare and contrast the Old Testament and the New.
 
aspen

aspen

Banned
#55
Feb 3, 2010
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#55
So if you follow those 11 steps perfectly, Nuhen - you will finally understand scripture correctly - how will you know? You will have the exact same interpretation of every word as charisenexcelcis!

Happy reading!
 
Nuhen

Nuhen

Banned
#56
Jan 22, 2010
1,022
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#56
Not a bad strategy, but I feel more comfortable with my own method :p
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
#57
#57
aspen said:
So if you follow those 11 steps perfectly, Nuhen - you will finally understand scripture correctly - how will you know? You will have the exact same interpretation of every word as charisenexcelcis!

Happy reading!
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lol. You and I amy not have perfect doctrine, but if it is biblically based, if we are open to the Holy Spirit, and if we don't butcher our interpretation, it will be sound.
 
aspen

aspen

Banned
#58
Feb 3, 2010
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#58
charisenexcelcis said:
lol. You and I amy not have perfect doctrine, but if it is biblically based, if we are open to the Holy Spirit, and if we don't butcher our interpretation, it will be sound.
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........I agree! :)
 
MahogonySnail

MahogonySnail

Banned
#59
Jan 8, 2009
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#59
Something being "biblically based" is no true test for soundness of doctrine. People have this false illusion that if something can be supported from the bible, then it's OK. But i know taoists who base their beliefs on the bible but it doesn't make them right.
 
VW

VW

Banned
#60
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
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#60
charisenexcelcis said:
1. consider the context
2. Understand the words
3. Understand the grammar
4. Grasp the author's intent
Study the background
6. Interpret scripture by scripture
7. Carefully interpret figures of speech, symbols, types, parables, and allegories.
8. Pay careful attention to Hebrew idioms and Hebrew poetry
9. Be conservative in interpreting apocalyptic passages.
10. Do not build doctrine from single references.
11. Compare and contrast the Old Testament and the New.
Click to expand...
At what point does the Holy Spirit come into the equation, my friend?
 
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