Command authority - heresy, blasphemy or sound doctrine

[PeterJens]

A challenge was made to command authority proponents that this is satanic in origin, dominating the Holy Spirit.

There is a connection here with astrology. A christian who dabbles in astrology is given over to the authority behind the predictions so they come true, until they repent.

Jesus submitted always to the Lords will. He commanded us to follow the Lords will.
"Thy will be done" (The Lords prayer) "Not my will but your will" (Garden of Gethsemene)

Satans kingdom is about dimination over others, selfish ambition and authority

The Kingdom of heaven is about servant hood, seeing needs and meeting them, loving and submitting to the needs of the situation.

If we as Gods people start submitting or listening to teaching of demons, we submit to their authority, and their fake blessings. Teaching and spiritual intent matter in the Kingdom of God. You can dishonour the Lord and deny you faith by submitting to heresy, so it matters what the teaching is behind preachers, it is not just get the spiritual anointing, because the anointing could be from anything and anyone, good or bad.

The Lord allowed a spirit to annoy King Saul because of his rebellion, so do not think the Lord will not send such a spirit on you if you dishonour his gospel.

What we see in the church today is confusing because it is not about demons but about who is your God and what is his nature of dealing with you and creation. You may claim the name christian, but that does not mean you have His Spirit or His authority.

I believe command theology is a doctrine of demons and blasphemy.

 

[CeileDe]

A challenge was made to command authority proponents that this is satanic in origin, dominating the Holy Spirit.

There is a connection here with astrology. A christian who dabbles in astrology is given over to the authority behind the predictions so they come true, until they repent.

Jesus submitted always to the Lords will. He commanded us to follow the Lords will.
"Thy will be done" (The Lords prayer) "Not my will but your will" (Garden of Gethsemene)

Satans kingdom is about dimination over others, selfish ambition and authority

The Kingdom of heaven is about servant hood, seeing needs and meeting them, loving and submitting to the needs of the situation.

If we as Gods people start submitting or listening to teaching of demons, we submit to their authority, and their fake blessings. Teaching and spiritual intent matter in the Kingdom of God. You can dishonour the Lord and deny you faith by submitting to heresy, so it matters what the teaching is behind preachers, it is not just get the spiritual anointing, because the anointing could be from anything and anyone, good or bad.

The Lord allowed a spirit to annoy King Saul because of his rebellion, so do not think the Lord will not send such a spirit on you if you dishonour his gospel.

What we see in the church today is confusing because it is not about demons but about who is your God and what is his nature of dealing with you and creation. You may claim the name christian, but that does not mean you have His Spirit or His authority.

I believe command theology is a doctrine of demons and blasphemy.

I'm guessing you are talking about people saying "In the name of Jesus Christ you are healed" as command theology?

 

[CeileDe]

Acts 3:6
And Peter said "I have no silver and gold, but what I do have I give to you. "In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk!."

Peter says what I do have I give to you. What did Peter have? He had the Holy Spirit living in him. This is command theology and it is the example we go by. We don't see the Disciples begging God for a miracle, they knew God already sent them Holy Spirit and they knew and had faith God would heal.

 

[PeterJens]

Command theology is the concept that you are a god, a child of God, becoming part of the Godhead yourself.
They teach when you become a christian you gain the authority of the Godhead for you to command.

The idea is the words God speaks bind Him or limit Him in the world. They in someway believe God no longer rules the earth because he gave it over. He needs permission to enter this realm and do things from the gods, ie born again people.

Jesus is no longer God made man, but some demi-god, who had to be born again in hell, the first fruits of salvation.
A believer is therefore on the same level as Jesus.

With this god authority you can make things happen, command with your words and it will be. They think that if you accept doctors and medicene you make yourself ill, because as a god you cannot be ill. Likewise you can command wealth or anything you want, you have to speak it out.

This is what Creflo Dollar, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland believe, the theology and ideas behind Toronto blessing, Florida outpouring, and many supposed "Spirit" filled believers who are preaching from the pit.

The truth is the words God speaks are His nature, are the things He promises, that He will bring about, that are reliable and will be fulfilled. They do not limit Him, but bring glory to His name. We are not gods, we are humble servants to the will of the Father, whose desire is that we love and serve the needs of those we find.

This command theology gospel is about exalting man above the Lord, and dominating the situation. It is also insane and truly nuts, as no one get creative authority like the Lord at any point, now or in the future.

As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,[a] drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give. Matt 10:7-8

What the Apostle Peter did in terms of healing was in Jesus name

Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38


Then Peter said, “Silver or gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk.” Acts 3:6

The command theology idea is you can heal in your own name as a god.

Large parts of what we call the christian world as teaching this theology and practice. It is not of God and its fruits are empty.

 

[CeileDe]

Command theology is the concept that you are a god, a child of God, becoming part of the Godhead yourself.
They teach when you become a christian you gain the authority of the Godhead for you to command.

The idea is the words God speaks bind Him or limit Him in the world. They in someway believe God no longer rules the earth because he gave it over. He needs permission to enter this realm and do things from the gods, ie born again people.

Jesus is no longer God made man, but some demi-god, who had to be born again in hell, the first fruits of salvation.
A believer is therefore on the same level as Jesus.

With this god authority you can make things happen, command with your words and it will be. They think that if you accept doctors and medicene you make yourself ill, because as a god you cannot be ill. Likewise you can command wealth or anything you want, you have to speak it out.

This is what Creflo Dollar, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland believe, the theology and ideas behind Toronto blessing, Florida outpouring, and many supposed "Spirit" filled believers who are preaching from the pit.

The truth is the words God speaks are His nature, are the things He promises, that He will bring about, that are reliable and will be fulfilled. They do not limit Him, but bring glory to His name. We are not gods, we are humble servants to the will of the Father, whose desire is that we love and serve the needs of those we find.

This command theology gospel is about exalting man above the Lord, and dominating the situation. It is also insane and truly nuts, as no one get creative authority like the Lord at any point, now or in the future.

As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,[a] drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give. Matt 10:7-8

What the Apostle Peter did in terms of healing was in Jesus name

Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38


Then Peter said, “Silver or gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk.” Acts 3:6

The command theology idea is you can heal in your own name as a god.

Large parts of what we call the christian world as teaching this theology and practice. It is not of God and its fruits are empty.

Ah ok. I guess I've never heard of that before. I've heard some Word of Faith people call us Little Gods or something like that.

 

[Willie-T]

A Canadian friend of mine expresses it this way.........

When I was younger, I was quite taken with a cartoon advertisement that used to appear regularly in various magazines. The purpose was to highlight how the Charles Atlas exercise program could change your life. Each cartoon strip followed the same script. It always began with a skinny young man (that I always identified with) that miraculously had the most beautiful girlfriend. Often he would make the same grievous mistake: He would take her to the beach. (“No, don’t do it!” I would caution – he never listened.) Invariably, they would be confronted by a buff, powerful man (on steroids?), who would kick sand in the young man’s face and humiliate him in front of his girlfriend. Discouraged, he would walk away, only to discover the magazine ad. Immediately he would send away for this extraordinary secret program and, within minutes of receiving it and putting it into practice, he would be transformed into the ultimate specimen of macho manhood. With new confidence, he would head for the beach and impress the girl by asserting his newfound power. (“She’s bad news,” I warned, but he still never listened.)

This is a classic example of power over power. Often we approach our kingdom commission just that way, looking for the magic program that will transform us into “men and women of power”, who will be able to overcome our evil opponents single-handedly. How could this story be changed to illustrate the true nature of our commission, that of ambassadorial authority?

I suppose the story might play out much the same way until the young man wanders despondently away from the beach. This time, however, he doesn’t encounter a magazine advertisement; he runs into an old friend – Arnold Schwarenegger. As he pours out his heart to Arnie, his friend says, “Let’s go back and right this wrong!” Excitedly, our young friend returns, finds the beach bully, and puffing up his chest, announces, “You’re outta here!” With a frightening stare, the man forgets all about the beautiful girl and literally races for safety. Who is he staring at? At first it might appear that he is looking at our new hero. In reality, he is looking just past him to the one riding shotgun off his right shoulder – Arnold!. “Hasta la vista, baby!” he says. This is authority over power. Our man hasn’t gained a pound or grown an inch. He has, however, gained authorization from a superior power that has agreed to “back his act”.

This kind of support can be intoxicating. I can imagine our young man becoming so zealous that he decides to rid the beach of every undesirable. This could work well… until Arnold breaks for lunch or decides that the mission has now exceeded what he originally “authorized”. So it is with our kingdom mission. Our success is commensurate to the authority that backs us and that backing is totally dependent on our obedience. When we are simply walking out what we have been commissioned to do, we can expect God’s full support

 

[ember]

I disagree with WOF but we do have authority in the Name of Christ...our position is IN Christ...

And it is very unwise to take on the kingdom of darkness...or the beach for comparison like the story above which is actually a good analogy...

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Acts 3:6
And Peter said "I have no silver and gold, but what I do have I give to you. "In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk!."

Peter says what I do have I give to you. What did Peter have? He had the Holy Spirit living in him. This is command theology and it is the example we go by. We don't see the Disciples begging God for a miracle, they knew God already sent them Holy Spirit and they knew and had faith God would heal.

What you fail to discern, Ceile, is that only the apostles had the ability to direct God's power, and they did so only for His glory.

We simply are not to listen to those who promote their opinion that we can do anything the apostles or Jesus did. By the same token, we should ignore those who claim that miracles no longer take place. Neither view is in line with what the word of God teaches, through the apostles and their statements regarding the “signs and wonders” in the early church.

Lifting Scripture out of context removes its ability to agree with actual events. What you have left is a passage that is meaningless, and becomes something other than how you or those who have taught you interpret it. We are to believe it as it is written to be in the truth.

What the apostles did is seen in the book of Acts as recorded history and doctrine. What the apostles taught the church is in the epistles. Believers are not given the supernatural ability cart blanche like the apostles to do miracles at the drop of a hat. Otherwise they would not have had to call Peter to raise Tabitha – they would have done it themselves.

Acts 9, NASB
36 Now in Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha (which translated in Greek is called Dorcas ); this woman was abounding with deeds of kindness and charity which she continually did.
37 And it happened at that time that she fell sick and died; and when they had washed her body, they laid it in an upper room.
38 Since Lydda was near Joppa, the disciples, having heard that Peter was there *, sent two men to him, imploring him, "Do not delay in coming to us."
39 So Peter arose and went with them. When he arrived, they brought him into the upper room; and all the widows stood beside him, weeping and showing all the tunics and garments that Dorcas used to make while she was with them.
40 But Peter sent them all out and knelt * down * and prayed, and turning to the body, he said, "Tabitha, arise." And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter, she sat up.
41 And he gave her his hand and raised her up; and calling the saints and widows, he presented her alive.​

If all Christians have the power to heal, then was there not one man or woman “full of the Holy Spirit,” as those of you who espouse signs and wonders for today like to claim you are, to the ability he/she could heal Tabitha/Dorcas? Nonsense. The power was given only to the apostles and to those to whom they directly passed it on, such as Stephen.

Acts 6
5 The statement found approval with the whole congregation; and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch.
6 And these they brought before the apostles; and after praying, they laid their hands on them.
7 The word of God kept on spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were becoming obedient to the faith.
8 And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people.
​

Stephen was specifically chosen by the apostles on the advice and consent of the Holy Spirit acting through the lots cast by the congregation. Again this proves the point of what is called an “apostolic legate,” a chosen representative of the apostles. You don’t know an apostle. You never met an apostle. There are none alive today, and haven’t been for over 1,900 years. So you don’t have this power. That is not a denial of God’s power and ability to do miracles today. It is a denial of your “power” and “ability” to do “miracle” today.

If we go back a few verses from the first passage above, we can understand what took place with these apostolic legates. We see that Stephen and Philip, among others are part of a specific group chosen out of the church to be evangelists especially to the Jews of the First Century. There are no First Century Jews alive today, either, by the way.

Acts 8
5 Philip went down to the city of Samaria and began proclaiming Christ to them.
6 The crowds with one accord were giving attention to what was said by Philip, as they heard and saw the signs which he was performing.
7 For in the case of many who had unclean spirits, they were coming out of them shouting with a loud voice; and many who had been paralyzed and lame were healed.
​

He was able to deliver people from demons and heal the sick. What we notice is that there were just a few not the many, not the majority of believers. In fact, of these men, seven out of the thousands who had recently converted to Christ.

We also have a plethora of verses indicating signs and wonders were done only by the apostles and those immediately associated with them.

• Acts 2:43 “…and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles”
• Acts 5:12: “And at the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were taking place among the people, and they were all with one accord in Solomon's Porch.”
• Acts 14:3: Therefore they spent a long time there speaking boldly with reliance upon the Lord, who was testifying to the word of His grace, granting that signs and wonders be done by their [the apostles’] hands.”

If all the church could do miracles like the apostles and this was normal, then what Paul said to the church at Corinth is meaningless.

2 Corinthians 12
12 The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles.​

Throughout the book of Acts (actually called the Acts of the Apostles) we see the apostles doing the signs and wonders. There are only two others who were specifically mentioned that did these miracles and they were appointed by the apostles.

The writer of Hebrews reiterates this fact.

Hebrews 2
3 how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,
4 God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.​

I believe in God’s power. Without doubt, He can do anything He chooses to do. I can and often do pray and He will do mighty things, heal and do miracles, in my life and the lives of my family and friends. He can do beyond all that we ask or think.

Ephesians 3
20 Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us,
21 to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.​

Note, “ … to Him be the glory … “ When we claim we can do all the things done by the apostles in the New Testament, we are not glorifying Him, but ourselves. We are not apostles, we are not directly empowered by God to do “mighty things.” Even the apostles were not granted power to personally heal, speak in tongues, prophecy (beyond the meaning of the word to properly preach the Gospel).

What they were granted was power by God to receive exactly what they asked for, to the glory of God and the forthtelling of His Gospel truth. Nothing more. Had the power been granted to them to heal, speak, prophecy, etc., then their message would be been muddled by the confusion as to whose power it actually was that was being used.

We don’t need, nor should we seek, such power. Today, the confirmation of the message of Christ is rooted in nearly two thousand years of changed lives, miracles done not by the power of men, or even the power of God through men, but only by the power of God! No one need seek special power. God is the power we all have, and our testimony -- not "parlor tricks" that bring glory to us, not God -- is His weapon.

To promise an absolute recovery by supernatural healing, or the resurrection of the dead, to claim gibberish is divine truth, to claim to have a “special word” for someone directly from God through us – that isn’t faith. It is pure, selfish, self-aggrandizing presumption.

God does not have to obey what you ask or command, and He laughs at those so presumptuous and conceited to think they have “the power of an apostle" to make commands or demands of Him.

No. We are to glorify Him, obey Him, love Him. Arrogant presumption does none of that.

 

[Willie-T]

Humm? So only the Apostles had Jesus' authority? I wonder what the 70 were talking about when they came back amazed that demons did their bidding?

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Humm? So only the Apostles had Jesus' authority? I wonder what the 70 were talking about when they came back amazed that demons did their bidding?

Any evidence you can present that indicates these 70 continued in the power after their missions trip? Or is all you got just more out-of-context snippery?

Again, biblical teaching gives no indication that anyone other than the apostles and those they directly associated with had this power, meaning it died out with them. In other words, direct gifting by Jesus during His earthly ministry, or contact with those who had such direct contact.

Care to offer any biblical proof to counter that? Keep in mind, I've already provided ample biblical evidence that only the apostles and associates of the apostles had that power, so any passages you post must contradict those, and you will have to show proof why they would do so and Scripture would still remain in harmony.

 

[Jeff_56]

vw, you are so opposed to the power of yahweh, so don't expect it in your life.

others have received his power, his life, and walk in it. don't worry, we/they won't visit you.

the gifts of yahweh were given without repentance (he didn't take them back).

i don't know your history, and don't want to. it's wrong. learn what's right. that's the best

advice to someone with as bad a theology, without power, having the form of religion only,

that anyone can give you.

 

[Willie-T]

Any evidence you can present that indicates these 70 continued in the power after their missions trip? Or is all you got just more out-of-context snippery?

Again, biblical teaching gives no indication that anyone other than the apostles and those they directly associated with had this power, meaning it died out with them.

Care to offer any biblical proof to counter that? Keep in mind, I've already provided ample biblical evidence that only the apostles and associates of the apostles had that power, so any passages you post must contradict those, and you will have to show proof why they would do so and Scripture would still remain in harmony.

You clearly know that Jesus gave ALL His followers authority to do those many things in His name.

I think people (who DO have the authority, BTW) are just afraid to risk trying to use it because they may be too concerned about how others will look at them. It's safer not to risk stepping out in faith.

 

[crossnote]

Humm? So only the Apostles had Jesus' authority? I wonder what the 70 were talking about when they came back amazed that demons did their bidding?

I thought we were talking N.T. Church which began at Pentecost. You are talking preparations for the Kingdom which ended up being rejected as Israel rejected Her King.

 

[Gr8grace]

What you fail to discern, Ceile, is that only the apostles had the ability to direct God's power, and they did so only for His glory.

We simply are not to listen to those who promote their opinion that we can do anything the apostles or Jesus did. By the same token, we should ignore those who claim that miracles no longer take place. Neither view is in line with what the word of God teaches, through the apostles and their statements regarding the “signs and wonders” in the early church.

Lifting Scripture out of context removes its ability to agree with actual events. What you have left is a passage that is meaningless, and becomes something other than how you or those who have taught you interpret it. We are to believe it as it is written to be in the truth.

What the apostles did is seen in the book of Acts as recorded history and doctrine. What the apostles taught the church is in the epistles. Believers are not given the supernatural ability cart blanche like the apostles to do miracles at the drop of a hat. Otherwise they would not have had to call Peter to raise Tabitha – they would have done it themselves.

Acts 9, NASB
36 Now in Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha (which translated in Greek is called Dorcas ); this woman was abounding with deeds of kindness and charity which she continually did.
37 And it happened at that time that she fell sick and died; and when they had washed her body, they laid it in an upper room.
38 Since Lydda was near Joppa, the disciples, having heard that Peter was there *, sent two men to him, imploring him, "Do not delay in coming to us."
39 So Peter arose and went with them. When he arrived, they brought him into the upper room; and all the widows stood beside him, weeping and showing all the tunics and garments that Dorcas used to make while she was with them.
40 But Peter sent them all out and knelt * down * and prayed, and turning to the body, he said, "Tabitha, arise." And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter, she sat up.
41 And he gave her his hand and raised her up; and calling the saints and widows, he presented her alive.​

If all Christians have the power to heal, then was there not one man or woman “full of the Holy Spirit,” as those of you who espouse signs and wonders for today like to claim you are, to the ability he/she could heal Tabitha/Dorcas? Nonsense. The power was given only to the apostles and to those to whom they directly passed it on, such as Stephen.

Acts 6
5 The statement found approval with the whole congregation; and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch.
6 And these they brought before the apostles; and after praying, they laid their hands on them.
7 The word of God kept on spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were becoming obedient to the faith.
8 And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people.
​

Stephen was specifically chosen by the apostles on the advice and consent of the Holy Spirit acting through the lots cast by the congregation. Again this proves the point of what is called an “apostolic legate,” a chosen representative of the apostles. You don’t know an apostle. You never met an apostle. There are none alive today, and haven’t been for over 1,900 years. So you don’t have this power. That is not a denial of God’s power and ability to do miracles today. It is a denial of your “power” and “ability” to do “miracle” today.

If we go back a few verses from the first passage above, we can understand what took place with these apostolic legates. We see that Stephen and Philip, among others are part of a specific group chosen out of the church to be evangelists especially to the Jews of the First Century. There are no First Century Jews alive today, either, by the way.

Acts 8
5 Philip went down to the city of Samaria and began proclaiming Christ to them.
6 The crowds with one accord were giving attention to what was said by Philip, as they heard and saw the signs which he was performing.
7 For in the case of many who had unclean spirits, they were coming out of them shouting with a loud voice; and many who had been paralyzed and lame were healed.
​

He was able to deliver people from demons and heal the sick. What we notice is that there were just a few not the many, not the majority of believers. In fact, of these men, seven out of the thousands who had recently converted to Christ.

We also have a plethora of verses indicating signs and wonders were done only by the apostles and those immediately associated with them.

• Acts 2:43 “…and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles”
• Acts 5:12: “And at the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were taking place among the people, and they were all with one accord in Solomon's Porch.”
• Acts 14:3: Therefore they spent a long time there speaking boldly with reliance upon the Lord, who was testifying to the word of His grace, granting that signs and wonders be done by their [the apostles’] hands.”

If all the church could do miracles like the apostles and this was normal, then what Paul said to the church at Corinth is meaningless.

2 Corinthians 12
12 The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles.​

Throughout the book of Acts (actually called the Acts of the Apostles) we see the apostles doing the signs and wonders. There are only two others who were specifically mentioned that did these miracles and they were appointed by the apostles.

The writer of Hebrews reiterates this fact.

Hebrews 2
3 how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,
4 God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.​

I believe in God’s power. Without doubt, He can do anything He chooses to do. I can and often do pray and He will do mighty things, heal and do miracles, in my life and the lives of my family and friends. He can do beyond all that we ask or think.

Ephesians 3
20 Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us,
21 to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.​

Note, “ … to Him be the glory … “ When we claim we can do all the things done by the apostles in the New Testament, we are not glorifying Him, but ourselves. We are not apostles, we are not directly empowered by God to do “mighty things.” Even the apostles were not granted power to personally heal, speak in tongues, prophecy (beyond the meaning of the word to properly preach the Gospel).

What they were granted was power by God to receive exactly what they asked for, to the glory of God and the forthtelling of His Gospel truth. Nothing more. Had the power been granted to them to heal, speak, prophecy, etc., then their message would be been muddled by the confusion as to whose power it actually was that was being used.

We don’t need, nor should we seek, such power. Today, the confirmation of the message of Christ is rooted in nearly two thousand years of changed lives, miracles done not by the power of men, or even the power of God through men, but only by the power of God! No one need seek special power. God is the power we all have, and our testimony -- not "parlor tricks" that bring glory to us, not God -- is His weapon.

To promise an absolute recovery by supernatural healing, or the resurrection of the dead, to claim gibberish is divine truth, to claim to have a “special word” for someone directly from God through us – that isn’t faith. It is pure, selfish, self-aggrandizing presumption.

God does not have to obey what you ask or command, and He laughs at those so presumptuous and conceited to think they have “the power of an apostle" to make commands or demands of Him.

No. We are to glorify Him, obey Him, love Him. Arrogant presumption does none of that.

Spot on. Thank you for taking the time to explain it so well.

 

[Jeff_56]

so well? "spot on" , yes dark spot.... on the body of christ.... "having the form of religion and denying the power thereof" as Jesus says, and as others have noted in this thread.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

vw, you are so opposed to the power of yahweh, so don't expect it in your life.p

I not only don't expect it, I don't want it, because what you practice defies Scriptural evidence that it is from God. Unless, of course, you want to claim to be a surviving apostle or one of their associates.

Also, your claim that I am opposed to God's power is simply ignorant. Or did you not read my post in which I said ...

[ . . . ] we should ignore those who claim that miracles no longer take place [ . . . ] That is not a denial of God’s power and ability to do miracles today. It is a denial of your “power” and “ability” to do “miracle” today. [ . . . ] I believe in God’s power. Without doubt, He can do anything He chooses to do. I can and often do pray and He will do mighty things, heal and do miracles, in my life and the lives of my family and friends. He can do beyond all that we ask or think (followed by Ephesians 3:20, 21) [ . . . ] God is the power we all have, and our testimony [ . . . ] is His weapon.

If you want to criticize or respond, refute the evidence. Don't go around claiming falsehoods about your brothers and sisters in Christ.

others have received his power, his life, and walk in it. don't worry, we/they won't visit you.

Good, I'm glad. Because you glorify only yourselves.

the gifts of yahweh were given without repentance (he didn't take them back).

No, they died with the apostles and their associates, the only ones to whom those gifts were given. Refuse to believe that? Then prove to me through Scripture I'm wrong. And as I told Willie, you're going to have to also provide evidence of how your Scriptural view is correct and the Bible can still remain consistent in its teachings.

i don't know your history, and don't want to. it's wrong. learn what's right. that's the best

Again, prove biblically I'm wrong. I'm still waiting.

advice to someone with as bad a theology, without power, having the form of religion only,

Ah, Jeff, you make claims about yourself and ignore the assurances of faith from those who disagree with you. That's disingenuous, and a malicious false claim against a brother. Done with you.

 

[Gr8grace]

If you want to criticize or respond, refute the evidence. Don't go around claiming falsehoods about your brothers and sisters in Christ.

I have yet to see anyone do this on this forum. There is either an attack on the messenger(not the message) or pitting scripture against scripture.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

I have yet to see anyone do this on this forum. There is either an attack on the messenger(not the message) or pitting scripture against scripture.

Amen. That's all they know how to do, since they can't disprove the Bible's teaching against what they believe.

You clearly know that Jesus gave ALL His followers authority to do those many things in His name.

Prove it biblically, Willie. I've posted the evidence that only the apostles and their associates were given this power. There is nothing anywhere in the Bible that you or Jeff or anyone else can cite that indicates all believers have the power. And if didn't die out, in fact was dying out before the apostles were all martyred or (in John's case) grew old and died, can you explain how Paul was unable to heal Trophimus, whom he left ill at Miletus (2 Timothy 4:20)?

The biblical evidence is insurmountable, and all I see posted is opinion and bad interpretation, like this ...

I think people (who DO have the authority, BTW) are just afraid to risk trying to use it because they may be too concerned about how others will look at them. It's safer not to risk stepping out in faith.

You think? Show me the biblical evidence of such authority. Show me the "evidence" that someone who has absolute faith in God -- not self -- in doing anything within His will is "not risking stepping out in faith"? The statement is foolish.

so well? "spot on" , yes dark spot.... on the body of christ.... "having the form of religion and denying the power thereof" as Jesus says, and as others have noted in this thread.

Denying biblical evidence now, Jeff? Really? Prove it wrong, or be silent.

 

[CeileDe]

What you fail to discern, Ceile, is that only the apostles had the ability to direct God's power, and they did so only for His glory.

We simply are not to listen to those who promote their opinion that we can do anything the apostles or Jesus did. By the same token, we should ignore those who claim that miracles no longer take place. Neither view is in line with what the word of God teaches, through the apostles and their statements regarding the “signs and wonders” in the early church.

Lifting Scripture out of context removes its ability to agree with actual events. What you have left is a passage that is meaningless, and becomes something other than how you or those who have taught you interpret it. We are to believe it as it is written to be in the truth.

What the apostles did is seen in the book of Acts as recorded history and doctrine. What the apostles taught the church is in the epistles. Believers are not given the supernatural ability cart blanche like the apostles to do miracles at the drop of a hat. Otherwise they would not have had to call Peter to raise Tabitha – they would have done it themselves.

Acts 9, NASB
36 Now in Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha (which translated in Greek is called Dorcas ); this woman was abounding with deeds of kindness and charity which she continually did.
37 And it happened at that time that she fell sick and died; and when they had washed her body, they laid it in an upper room.
38 Since Lydda was near Joppa, the disciples, having heard that Peter was there *, sent two men to him, imploring him, "Do not delay in coming to us."
39 So Peter arose and went with them. When he arrived, they brought him into the upper room; and all the widows stood beside him, weeping and showing all the tunics and garments that Dorcas used to make while she was with them.
40 But Peter sent them all out and knelt * down * and prayed, and turning to the body, he said, "Tabitha, arise." And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter, she sat up.
41 And he gave her his hand and raised her up; and calling the saints and widows, he presented her alive.​

If all Christians have the power to heal, then was there not one man or woman “full of the Holy Spirit,” as those of you who espouse signs and wonders for today like to claim you are, to the ability he/she could heal Tabitha/Dorcas? Nonsense. The power was given only to the apostles and to those to whom they directly passed it on, such as Stephen.

Acts 6
5 The statement found approval with the whole congregation; and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch.
6 And these they brought before the apostles; and after praying, they laid their hands on them.
7 The word of God kept on spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were becoming obedient to the faith.
8 And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people.
​

Stephen was specifically chosen by the apostles on the advice and consent of the Holy Spirit acting through the lots cast by the congregation. Again this proves the point of what is called an “apostolic legate,” a chosen representative of the apostles. You don’t know an apostle. You never met an apostle. There are none alive today, and haven’t been for over 1,900 years. So you don’t have this power. That is not a denial of God’s power and ability to do miracles today. It is a denial of your “power” and “ability” to do “miracle” today.

If we go back a few verses from the first passage above, we can understand what took place with these apostolic legates. We see that Stephen and Philip, among others are part of a specific group chosen out of the church to be evangelists especially to the Jews of the First Century. There are no First Century Jews alive today, either, by the way.

Acts 8
5 Philip went down to the city of Samaria and began proclaiming Christ to them.
6 The crowds with one accord were giving attention to what was said by Philip, as they heard and saw the signs which he was performing.
7 For in the case of many who had unclean spirits, they were coming out of them shouting with a loud voice; and many who had been paralyzed and lame were healed.
​

He was able to deliver people from demons and heal the sick. What we notice is that there were just a few not the many, not the majority of believers. In fact, of these men, seven out of the thousands who had recently converted to Christ.

We also have a plethora of verses indicating signs and wonders were done only by the apostles and those immediately associated with them.

• Acts 2:43 “…and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles”
• Acts 5:12: “And at the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were taking place among the people, and they were all with one accord in Solomon's Porch.”
• Acts 14:3: Therefore they spent a long time there speaking boldly with reliance upon the Lord, who was testifying to the word of His grace, granting that signs and wonders be done by their [the apostles’] hands.”

If all the church could do miracles like the apostles and this was normal, then what Paul said to the church at Corinth is meaningless.

2 Corinthians 12
12 The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles.​

Throughout the book of Acts (actually called the Acts of the Apostles) we see the apostles doing the signs and wonders. There are only two others who were specifically mentioned that did these miracles and they were appointed by the apostles.

The writer of Hebrews reiterates this fact.

Hebrews 2
3 how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,
4 God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.​

I believe in God’s power. Without doubt, He can do anything He chooses to do. I can and often do pray and He will do mighty things, heal and do miracles, in my life and the lives of my family and friends. He can do beyond all that we ask or think.

Ephesians 3
20 Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us,
21 to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.​

Note, “ … to Him be the glory … “ When we claim we can do all the things done by the apostles in the New Testament, we are not glorifying Him, but ourselves. We are not apostles, we are not directly empowered by God to do “mighty things.” Even the apostles were not granted power to personally heal, speak in tongues, prophecy (beyond the meaning of the word to properly preach the Gospel).

What they were granted was power by God to receive exactly what they asked for, to the glory of God and the forthtelling of His Gospel truth. Nothing more. Had the power been granted to them to heal, speak, prophecy, etc., then their message would be been muddled by the confusion as to whose power it actually was that was being used.

We don’t need, nor should we seek, such power. Today, the confirmation of the message of Christ is rooted in nearly two thousand years of changed lives, miracles done not by the power of men, or even the power of God through men, but only by the power of God! No one need seek special power. God is the power we all have, and our testimony -- not "parlor tricks" that bring glory to us, not God -- is His weapon.

To promise an absolute recovery by supernatural healing, or the resurrection of the dead, to claim gibberish is divine truth, to claim to have a “special word” for someone directly from God through us – that isn’t faith. It is pure, selfish, self-aggrandizing presumption.

God does not have to obey what you ask or command, and He laughs at those so presumptuous and conceited to think they have “the power of an apostle" to make commands or demands of Him.

No. We are to glorify Him, obey Him, love Him. Arrogant presumption does none of that.

So either we lost the holy spirit or we didn't. Healing did not end with the apostles. I have seen healing first hand.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

So either we lost the holy spirit or we didn't. Healing did not end with the apostles. I have seen healing first hand.

You don't bother to read anything said to you, do you? Please show me where any of the drivel you post here applies to my reply.

I'm serious. Show me the portion of my post where I said "we lost the Holy Spirit." Please show me where I said "healing does not occur today." Show the the section of that lengthy and well-cited post that any of what you said here has anything remotely to do with what was written.

This is nothing more than hyperbole, misdirection, and obliviousness regarding what I wrote. It is pure emotionalism, a reaction to my disagreement with you. It is not a reasoned response.