Another Math Problem about the Tabernacle

[atwhatcost]

Okay, so I'm on the first census in the wilderness. (Numbers 1) 603,550 men 20 and older from twelve tribes, and then the Levites. The smallest tribe -- Manasseh -- had a mere 32,200. (The biggest had over 50,000.) Moses didn't count the number of Levites, because they're taking care of the tabernacle, so let's say, they were only as "productive" as Manasseh, and only had 30,000. (Considering Manasseh was one of Joseph's two sons, and Levi was already an adult when Joseph was sold, I suspect more than that, but maybe that line of the family wasn't as heavy into lots of kids like everyone else was.)

The Levites' job was to manage and protect the tabernacle. When they traveled, they were in charge of carrying the whole tabernacle -- curtains, rods, heavy gold candlesticks, the arc, the heavy-duty altars, and even the heavy curtain rods and poles for easy set up and take down. And once it's set up then they either do the protecting or a lot of the manual labor for taking away unused innards, hoofs, horns, bones, etc., along with making sure the candles burn 24/7.

But the ark is 3750 square feet. (1143 meters.) I get they surround it to protect it 24/7, whether the nation is on the move or staying still. And carrying all that stuff is heavy work, but it still works out to roughly 9 men per square foot, and that's not counting the women and kids. I even get there had to be a lot of sacrificing of animals and bread. (At least the bread was fairly light.) But, not too many were called to do the actual sacrificing (Aaron and his two sons), so it's not like there was this bucket train traveling constantly to the outskirts of the humongous community. (When you start counting women and kids, it has to work out to roughly 2 million folks PLUS all those animals, so it's larger than Philly, and we don't have lots of herds roaming the city.)

So, it just feels squishy with that many families crowded around the arc, and not enough time to go to work. So, what were all the Levites doing when the nation camped at the same spot for a while? All I can picture is something like Manning the Rails.

 

[Lifetrack]

Excuse me, what Ark are you talking about?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

three thousand plus square feet? Mind if I ask where you got that data?

 

[oldhermit]

Instruction for building of the Covenant, Ex. 25:10-22

Dimensions of the Ark were 2.5 cubits long x 1 1/2 cubits wide x 1 1/2 cubits high or 45'' x 27'' x 27'' The dimensions of the mercy seat, this is the lid of the Ark of the Covenant, were 1. 2.5 cubits long x 1 1/2 cubits wide or 45'' x 27''. I am trying to figure out where you got the 3750 square feet.

 

[psychomom]

Instruction for building of the Covenant, Ex. 25:10-22

Dimensions of the Ark were 2.5 cubits long x 1 1/2 cubits wide x 1 1/2 cubits high or 45'' x 27'' x 27'' The dimensions of the mercy seat, this is the lid of the Ark of the Covenant, were 1. 2.5 cubits long x 1 1/2 cubits wide or 45'' x 27''. I am trying to figure out where you got the 3750 square feet.

isn't a cubit about 18 inches?

 

[atwhatcost]

Doh! Senior moment there. I meant the tabernacle was that big, not the ark.

The whole of the inside of the tabernacle area -- outer court, inner court and Holy of Holies. And it might be a bit bigger assuming people don't want to trip on the pole stakes and cords.

 

[psychomom]

Doh! Senior moment there. I meant the tabernacle was that big, not the ark.

The whole of the inside of the tabernacle area -- outer court, inner court and Holy of Holies. And it might be a bit bigger assuming people don't want to trip on the pole stakes and cords.

Lynn, you are a hoot!

 

[wwjd_kilden]

While the Bible tells us that the length of Noah’s Ark was 300 cubits, its width 50 cubits, and its height 30 cubits, we must first ask, “How long is a cubit?” The answer, however, is not certain because ancient people groups assigned different lengths to the term “cubit” (Hebrew word אמה [ammah]), the primary unit of measure in the Old Testament.
The length of a cubit was based on the distance from the elbow to the fingertips, so it varied between different ancient groups of people. Here are some samples from Egypt, Babylon, and ancient Israel:
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TH="class: colorTableHead"]Culture[/TH]
[TH="class: colorTableHead"]Inches (centimeters)[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: list1"]Hebrew (short)[/TD]
[TD="class: list1"]17.5 (44.5)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: list2"]Egyptian[/TD]
[TD="class: list2"]17.6 (44.7)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: list1"]Common (short)[/TD]
[TD="class: list1"]18 (45.7)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: list2"]Babylonian (long)[/TD]
[TD="class: list2"]19.8 (50.3)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: list1"]Hebrew (long)[/TD]
[TD="class: list1"]20.4 (51.8)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: list2"]Egyptian (long)[/TD]
[TD="class: list2"]20.6 (52.3)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
But when Noah came off the Ark, only one cubit measurement existed—the one he had used to construct the Ark. Unfortunately, the exact length of this cubit is unknown. After the nations were divided, years later at the Tower of Babel, different cultures (people groups) adopted different cubits. So it requires some logical guesswork to reconstruct the most likely length of the original cubit.

(Answers in Genesis)

 

[wwjd_kilden]

oooh, lol, that makes more sense

 

[oldhermit]

Doh! Senior moment there. I meant the tabernacle was that big, not the ark.

The whole of the inside of the tabernacle area -- outer court, inner court and Holy of Holies. And it might be a bit bigger assuming people don't want to trip on the pole stakes and cords.

LOL. Yea, that does make a big difference. The only area that was constructed as a closed structure was the Holy of holies and it was only 15 feet square which was disassembled and stored when the camp was in motion. The rest was merely the courtyard which was only inclosed by wall of material made of curtains which was also disassembled and stored when in movement.

 

[atwhatcost]

LOL. Yea, that does make a big difference. The only area that was constructed as a closed structure was the Holy of holies and it was only 15 feet square which was disassembled and stored when the camp was in motion. The rest was merely the courtyard which was only inclosed by wall of material made of curtains which was also disassembled and stored when in movement.

Still, 30,000ish men 20 and over serving and protecting it. Since most didn't touch the sanctified things, that's a lot of people. What did they do when they weren't traveling? I don't really think they manned the rail since their whole camp surrounded it and they'd notice if a non-Levite was passing by. (And, if a non-Levite was passing by, I hope he had a baby animal or a loaf of bread with him, or swords were involved.)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Still, 30,000ish men 20 and over serving and protecting it. Since most didn't touch the sanctified things, that's a lot of people. What did they do when they weren't traveling? I don't really think they manned the rail since their whole camp surrounded it and they'd notice if a non-Levite was passing by. (And, if a non-Levite was passing by, I hope he had a baby animal or a loaf of bread with him, or swords were involved.)

it would really be no different then what they did after the temple was completed. And I am not sure it had to be a levite to carry all the curtains and other stuff. The only thing we KNOW they are required to carry is the ark. which would not take very many at all.

 

[oldhermit]

Still, 30,000ish men 20 and over serving and protecting it. Since most didn't touch the sanctified things, that's a lot of people. What did they do when they weren't traveling? I don't really think they manned the rail since their whole camp surrounded it and they'd notice if a non-Levite was passing by. (And, if a non-Levite was passing by, I hope he had a baby animal or a loaf of bread with him, or swords were involved.)

They were not all in actual constant service. Service was limited to the proportion of Levites so the actual act of service was rotated. You can see an example of this in Luke 1:9 as Zechariah was chosen by lot to enter the temple of the Lord and burn incense.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

But the ark is 3750 square feet. (1143 meters.) I get they surround it to protect it 24/7, whether the nation is on the move or staying still. And carrying all that stuff is heavy work, but it still works out to roughly 9 men per square foot, and that's not counting the women and kids. I even get there had to be a lot of sacrificing of animals and bread. (At least the bread was fairly light.) But, not too many were called to do the actual sacrificing (Aaron and his two sons), so it's not like there was this bucket train traveling constantly to the outskirts of the humongous community. (When you start counting women and kids, it has to work out to roughly 2 million folks PLUS all those animals, so it's larger than Philly, and we don't have lots of herds roaming the city.)

So, it just feels squishy with that many families crowded around the arc, and not enough time to go to work. So, what were all the Levites doing when the nation camped at the same spot for a while? All I can picture is something like Manning the Rails.

They also had their own households to move, and even though the Levites didn't own land, they still owned property -- livestock, farm implements (once settled in Israel, the tribe shared land, and all worked it for the benefit of each other), tradesmen's wares and equipment, etc.

The Levites served the Tabernacle/Temple in shifts. There were established rotations in yearly assignments for each man to serve as a servant of the Temple, and that required several hundred workers each year -- not just the priests, but those who removed the sacrifices outside the camp for burning, but even before they did that, they had to take the usable meat and divide it among the priesthood and their families.

We don't grasp today how hard the Levites had to work for Israel. It represented a tremendous workload to handle the worship and atonement duties of the House of Levi, because as you mentioned there were probably over two million people, perhaps as many as four or five million. That's a lot of sin, a lot of atonement to be done through animals, a lot of worship responsibilities -- and the Temple pointed to Christ, one God-man who accomplished everything it had required 30,000 able-bodied men working millions of man hours a year for over 1,400 years to accomplish.

And He accomplished those things by taking upon Himself the sins of the world, spreading His arms, and dying. Unlike the animals, He arose again, thereby securing for us eternal life.

 

[atwhatcost]

it would really be no different then what they did after the temple was completed. And I am not sure it had to be a levite to carry all the curtains and other stuff. The only thing we KNOW they are required to carry is the ark. which would not take very many at all.

No, we really do know they did all the carrying. It's in parts of Leviticus, and I just hit it again at the end of Numbers 1. (It's brought up in quite a few books after this too. Once the arc started falling and a non-Levite grabbed it to protect it, but he was killed instantly for touching it. Every non-Levite that ever touched the arc died instantly. Some of the Levites did too, later on. They ended up being tied to a rope around their ankle before going into the Holy of Holies because, if they didn't properly prepare themselves, they would be killed on the spot, and how do you get the body out, but to pull it out with a rope? It took at least a week to prepare to go in, so a corpse would really stink up the place by the time you could get to it, not to mention just touching one defiles you, so you're dead too. Then there are two bodies!)

And, yes, I'm sure it's no different than when they made the temple, but that's a big difference right there. The temple was in one location, and a LOT bigger. They got all the land skirting the city, so they got houses, a nice plot to work, and live their lives. This is the wilderness, where growing crops would be tough since you never know when God's going to tell you to pull of stakes. Not really enough time to grow olive, figs, grapes, pomegranates, etc. They would grow to a greater number in the promise land. (The Israelites didn't grow by much in those 40 years in the wilderness, but that's because God got annoyed with this generation so waited to take the next generation into the promise land.) But at this point in time there were 30,000ish guarding a small bit of mobile land.

I'm going with the women did the laundry. We know the men made the meals, because the meals were for God and then they got what was leftover. (There's the meat and bread portion of daily meals that women never had to prepare.) There were no houses to clean -- tents, sure, but no houses. And, if you live in a tent, sweeping seems pointless. Dusting, no doubt, but that was on the ladies too. Get water? Ladies and kids. Manna gathering? Probably the ladies and kids. So, seriously, what did 30,000ish men 20 and older do? I'm thinking no more than 1000 were needed to maintain the tabernacle. I get they were all probably needed to do the moving. (Long poles and really heavy stuff, since much of it was made from gold over wood.) But, sometimes they stayed still for a while. And then what?

 

[atwhatcost]

They were not all in actual constant service. Service was limited to the proportion of Levites so the actual act of service was rotated. You can see an example of this in Luke 1:9 as Zechariah was chosen by lot to enter the temple of the Lord and burn incense.

If Zechariah was chosen to light up some incense by lot doesn't that indicate how many were sitting around waiting to do something right there? (And, by then, at least they could grow stuff. They never had a need to herd animals, but at least they can grow stuff and the ladies had homes to keep.)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, we really do know they did all the carrying. It's in parts of Leviticus, and I just hit it again at the end of Numbers 1. (It's brought up in quite a few books after this too. Once the arc started falling and a non-Levite grabbed it to protect it, but he was killed instantly for touching it. Every non-Levite that ever touched the arc died instantly. Some of the Levites did too, later on. They ended up being tied to a rope around their ankle before going into the Holy of Holies because, if they didn't properly prepare themselves, they would be killed on the spot, and how do you get the body out, but to pull it out with a rope? It took at least a week to prepare to go in, so a corpse would really stink up the place by the time you could get to it, not to mention just touching one defiles you, so you're dead too. Then there are two bodies!)

ok, everything you just posted here related to the arc. not to the whole tabernackle. so I am not sure of what point your trying to make (are you having a senior moment again)

And, yes, I'm sure it's no different than when they made the temple, but that's a big difference right there. The temple was in one location, and a LOT bigger. They got all the land skirting the city, so they got houses, a nice plot to work, and live their lives. This is the wilderness, where growing crops would be tough since you never know when God's going to tell you to pull of stakes. Not really enough time to grow olive, figs, grapes, pomegranates, etc. They would grow to a greater number in the promise land. (The Israelites didn't grow by much in those 40 years in the wilderness, but that's because God got annoyed with this generation so waited to take the next generation into the promise land.) But at this point in time there were 30,000ish guarding a small bit of mobile land.

I'm going with the women did the laundry. We know the men made the meals, because the meals were for God and then they got what was leftover. (There's the meat and bread portion of daily meals that women never had to prepare.) There were no houses to clean -- tents, sure, but no houses. And, if you live in a tent, sweeping seems pointless. Dusting, no doubt, but that was on the ladies too. Get water? Ladies and kids. Manna gathering? Probably the ladies and kids. So, seriously, what did 30,000ish men 20 and older do? I'm thinking no more than 1000 were needed to maintain the tabernacle. I get they were all probably needed to do the moving. (Long poles and really heavy stuff, since much of it was made from gold over wood.) But, sometimes they stayed still for a while. And then what?

God said they were not to do work. I take God at his word and do not question him. Why would I? God has his reasons, who am I to judge God?

And they had alot of work to do. their work was not just around the temple.

 

[atwhatcost]

They also had their own households to move, and even though the Levites didn't own land, they still owned property -- livestock, farm implements (once settled in Israel, the tribe shared land, and all worked it for the benefit of each other), tradesmen's wares and equipment, etc.

The Levites served the Tabernacle/Temple in shifts. There were established rotations in yearly assignments for each man to serve as a servant of the Temple, and that required several hundred workers each year -- not just the priests, but those who removed the sacrifices outside the camp for burning, but even before they did that, they had to take the usable meat and divide it among the priesthood and their families.

We don't grasp today how hard the Levites had to work for Israel. It represented a tremendous workload to handle the worship and atonement duties of the House of Levi, because as you mentioned there were probably over two million people, perhaps as many as four or five million. That's a lot of sin, a lot of atonement to be done through animals, a lot of worship responsibilities -- and the Temple pointed to Christ, one God-man who accomplished everything it had required 30,000 able-bodied men working millions of man hours a year for over 1,400 years to accomplish.

And He accomplished those things by taking upon Himself the sins of the world, spreading His arms, and dying. Unlike the animals, He arose again, thereby securing for us eternal life.

Some of this I agree with, but that's when they got to the promise land. Then they had all that housework to do that we take for granted, because we have running water, vacuum cleaners and go to stores to buy either clothes or material to make our clothes. For that matter, we buy our cooking utensils too.

But why would they ever need livestock? They got free meat.

And, I've been thinking that's a lot of innards, hoofs, horns, and bones to remove from camp, but despite how many offerings the Israelites gave to the temple, there was only Aaron and his two sons doing the slaughtering. How many animals do you think they could butcher per day? Guaranteed the ones taking out the garbage had heavy loads and a very long walk, (since the tabernacle was protected first by the Levites and then by all 12 other tribes), but they couldn't carry out more than Aaron and two sons cut slaughter and prepare properly. (I still can't help thinking, and I used to complain because I had to carry one small bucket of fish heads and guts away from the fish cleaning station to avoid flies. Disgusting job, but much easier than what those guys had to do. They actually had to burn it outside of camp. Phew! Stinkier!)

Was it something like military service -- work at it full time for a few years and then retire with your family? I can see that in Jerusalem, but the retirement plan in the wilderness didn't really allow for retiring either.

 

[atwhatcost]

ok, everything you just posted here related to the arc. not to the whole tabernackle. so I am not sure of what point your trying to make (are you having a senior moment again)



God said they were not to do work. I take God at his word and do not question him. Why would I? God has his reasons, who am I to judge God?

And they had alot of work to do. their work was not just around the temple.

Nope. This definitely isn't my senior moment. Have you not read the whole Bible yet? Seriously! It outlines everything the Levites had to do, and it was most certainly work.

How do you take God at his word, if you don't know his word? Although, honestly, I see where that can cut down on the number of questions you have for him. (No where in his word does it say we can't try to figure out what's being said in that word.)

My problem is it seems like, even though there really is a lot of work involved, there's not enough work for all of them. To me, it feels like we got ourselves a huge army, so let's have most of them sit around and wait for something. Granted, it's good to have a larger army ready at a moment's notice, but no one let's that many men sit around doing nothing even when they aren't fighting.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Nope. This definitely isn't my senior moment. Have you not read the whole Bible yet? Seriously! It outlines everything the Levites had to do, and it was most certainly work.

How do you take God at his word, if you don't know his word? Although, honestly, I see where that can cut down on the number of questions you have for him. (No where in his word does it say we can't try to figure out what's being said in that word.)

My problem is it seems like, even though there really is a lot of work involved, there's not enough work for all of them. To me, it feels like we got ourselves a huge army, so let's have most of them sit around and wait for something. Granted, it's good to have a larger army ready at a moment's notice, but no one let's that many men sit around doing nothing even when they aren't fighting.

1. I have read the bible.
2 There was more work than your realising
3. The tabernacle was always in just one place (even the temple). so there would be way more levites than needed if their work was just related to the tabernacle (or temple).

again, God said it, why do you question God? I am not asking to mock you. just asking a sincere question.