Questions about the Sabbath issue

[sparkman]

je1979, out of interest, do you attend a fellowship which believes in Sabbath and festival observance, and if so, which one?

Do you consider non-Sabbath/festival observers to be fellow Christians who are by no means inferior to yourself? Do you deny the salvation of those who don't keep the Sabbath or festivals, and never will keep them?

As a Sabbathkeeper, I did not consider those who didn't keep the Sabbath and festivals to be saved. In fact, I did not even consider anyone outside of my church to be saved.

if you can answer this question clearly I'd appreciate it. It will tell me a lot about where you are coming from. I was taught to evade such questions. That is disingenuous.

Hey sparkman and others, I hope y'all are doing well. I know that observing the Sabbath can become a passionate issue, so please don't think I'm here to debate and make a point.

I've only started observing God's holy days within the past year. This is not something that I have been taught. It was never even mentioned in service. There were just some verses that I couldn't deny.

Old Testament:
1) Exodus 20:8 - The Sabbath is one of the 10 commandments. Even Jesus in Matthew 5 did not release us from obeying the commandments.
2) Leviticus 23:2 - God calls the feasts "My feasts" and not Israel's.
3) Ezekiel 20:12-16 - God calls the Sabbath "My Sabbath" and tells how the people have separated from it and Him. He pairs Himself with the Sabbath as a package deal.
4) Ezekiel 22:26 - God shines the light on the cause of the people forsaking the Sabbath...the preachers. Once again, He pairs Himself with the Sabbath as a package deal.

Jesus - Why not choose any of the other six days to do these things? He had to know that this would cause debate:
1) Luke 4:16 - He had a custom on the Sabbath.
2) Luke 4:31-36 - He spirituall healed on the Sabbath.
3) John 5:1-9 - He physically healed on the Sabbath.
4) Mark 2:27-28 - He is Lord of the Sabbath. Why be Lord of something that is/will be done away with?
Jesus showed that the Sabbath isn't about rules but is a reminder.

New Testament - Sabbath observing was still going on after Jesus:
1) Acts 17:2 - Paul developed a custom on the Sabbath like Jesus.
2) Acts 13:14-16 - Paul taught on the Sabbath. Also in Acts 18:4.

The Supposed Opposition - Verses should always be read in context and not isolated:
Romans 14:5-6 speaks of matters that involve choice/preference and how they should not be made into commandment. This is why Paul mentioned the eating of meat vs. plant only. If God doesn't restrict, then you can't turn your opinion and tradition into His commandment (Matt. 15:3, 6 & Mark 7:8-9). How do we know this was not speaking of God's holy days? God never gave a choice to man on these days; they were mandated and there was no discussion.

In Colossians 2:16-17, take notice that whether the Gentile saints at Colossae were keeping the Sabbath was never questioned by Paul. What was addressed was that some had put rules on how the occasions should be observed that God had not said so to do. For example, being told that you must address younger men in the church as "Brother so-and-so" and if you do not do so then you are wrong. God did not mandate this, yet people were governing as if it were God's commandment. People were trying to dictate what kind of meat and what kind of bread. This is not scripture to do so. Also notice that verse 17 says "are a shadow of things to come" and not "were". Paul speaks in the present tense and Jesus has already come for the first round. That means God's holy days point towards Jesus' second coming.

Read Galatians 4:8-10 together. When were God's holy days sourced from weak and beggarly elements? Verse 10 is speaking of using ungodly means to predict the future as well as pagan/idolatrous festivals (Leviticus 19:26, Deu. 18:10-14 & 2 Kings 21:6).

The Explanation:
Hebrews 3:7-Hebrews 4 shows how the physical rest taken in the old testament translated into spiritual rest for us in the new testament. Jesus used many physical parables to teach us spiritual lessons. Who do you think Jesus got that method from? God uses the Sabbath and the other holy days as a reminder like an alarm clock. He taught Peter that reminding the people is so necessary that to not do so is neglect (2 Peter 1:12). Sadly, people get so caught up in the OT vs. NT/the law vs. Jesus/Saturday vs. Sunday argument that they completely miss the beauty that God loves us so much as to leave us reminders to not miss the bus so to speak. Remember, God said the 7th day, not Saturday or Sunday, but the end of your work week. For some, Wednesday might be their day off from work. God is trying to keep you reminded that only those that are complete will enter into His rest (John 19:30; Hebrews 4:10; James 1:4). Don't get distracted.

While Jesus is all things God and all things from God, He does not replace the event itself (Hebrews 4:8-9). Jesus told Martha that He is the resurrection (John 11:25). While that is true, Jesus does not replace the actual event of the dead rising from their graves, otherwise Paul would have been false and we would have nothing to look forward to other than just staying dead (1 Thess. 4:16). Jesus only replaced the sacrifice in the Passover, not the event itself. Even He participated in the event (John 13:1). Have we ever known Jesus to pick and choose from God's law?

 

[je1979]

je1979, out of interest, do you attend a fellowship which believes in Sabbath and festival observance, and if so, which one?

Do you consider non-Sabbath/festival observers to be fellow Christians who are by no means inferior to yourself? Do you deny the salvation of those who don't keep the Sabbath or festivals, and never will keep them?

Hey sparkman, how's it going?

I will most definitely answer your questions. If we plan on sharing the same heaven then we should be able to share some intimacy down here.

The last church I attended did not believe in observing the holy days. I went there for 10 years. It was a beautiful people for showing me that I needed water baptism in Jesus' name, being filled with the Holy Spirit and that God will judge our attitudes and not just what we believe. Though they didn't believe in observing the holy days, which I had only started doing in the past year, God can soften hearts and change people. I didn't want to leave only because of that. Unfortunately, the church became stagnant and the pastor was involved in infidelity with some of the congregation. I showed him scripture on how God deals with an elder in such manners, but he rejected it (1 Tim. 5:17-20). That is why I left. Not because he sinned and I was unwilling to forgive, but because he didn't think the rules applied to him and he was unwilling to consider that God had more to show us outside of the same mountain we'd been circling for a couple of years now (Deu. 2:3). I still thank God for my time there because that's what got my name in the book. Now I have to find another elder to help me keep it there and go northward. Don't get me wrong, I'm not progressive when it comes to God. There's a difference in progressive and there being more that God wants to show us.

Do I consider non-holy day observers to be fellow Christians? The only people I consider to be fellow Christians are those that believe that Jesus is Lord, have been baptized in Jesus' name and have been filled with the Holy Spirit. I only mention these three because there is a such thing as a disobedient Christian. You don't just want to be a Christian, but a holy and righteous Christian (Heb. 12:14; Psalm 24:4-5). The qualifiers for being holy and righteous is another bible study itself. The purpose of the holy days is not to get your name written in the book of life. The holy days are not qualifiers, but reminders.

Do I think non-holy day observers to be inferior?
Inferiority is still a pride thing. None of us will make it being concerned with that.

Do I deny the salvation of non-holy day observers?
I can't refrain giving something that was not mine to give (Mark 10:40). sparkman, I don't know you, but you may be a nice guy. If so, I'd put you in heaven if it were mine to give. There have been some pretty evil people to exist, but none can handle the horrors of the second death (Mark 14:21; Luke 16:19-31).

2 Peter 1:12-15, "12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth. 13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; 14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me. 15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

The Holy Spirit revealed to Peter that he should remind others of things they already knew. Why? Someone said, "Out of sight, out of mind". When you're not reminded, you can simply get out of practice of doing. Life is messy and distracting. Jesus gave a parable in Luke 14:16-24. Notice that Jesus didn't bill the people in verses 18-20 as rank sinners. They were simply busy (distracted), and they missed out. Even the best intentioned saints can still miss out if they let go of the reminders (Heb. 3:7-Heb. 4:1). To part with the reminders is like trusting that you will wake up on time without setting the alarm clock. That's taking a chance isn't it? Jesus is returning in the "rapture" only once and sparkman, I can't afford to miss that event. So God, in His goodness, wants us to trade in our "schedule book" which is full of vanity and has given us His "schedule book" so that we can prepare to meet God (Amos 4:12) without "oversleeping" (Luke 21:34). Seeing that God gives what is NEEDED for salvation and not simply suggestions, I'll take him up on His offer of the reminders. Just because I think I will "wake up on time" without the reminders doesn't mean I don't need them. Because God created fellowship in worship service to help us in salvation, you better believe I'm not content being without a church right now (Heb 10:25). Satan tries to tell me that I don't have to be in a hurry to find another ministry because the verse says "forsaking" and I didn't have the bad attitude that is associated with forsaking. Doesn't matter. God created fellowship in worship because it's necessary, not simply a suggestion (Heb 4:24; Eccl 4:9-10).

Side note: 2 Peter 1:12-15 isn't talking about the feast of tabernacles, but I just found it ironic of Peter's choice of wording in verse 14.

 

[Surhope]

Hi my friend! it is beautiful how God is guiding you with His Word, yes my brother! Saturday is the Sabbath the seventh day of the week, and listen this is the last test the world would have to show if they're fololwing men or God, did you heard something about unity of churches?? or Sunday Law..?? in Exodus the fourth commandment starts with "Remember" is the only one with this word.. Let the Word of the Lord talk to you not me... Check this verses..
Genesis 2: 1-3, Luke 4:16, Luke 23: 56, Acts 17:2, Isaiah 66:22,23, Isaiah 56:2, Isaiah 58: 13,14, Acts 5:29
You can visit: What day is the Sabbath and does it matter? | Sabbath Truth for more information, you'll find very interesting, important information right there.
I hope the Holy Spirit keep working in you my brother! God bless you always!!

 

[KohenMatt]

This is just one man's experience regarding the Sabbath......

I've honored a Saturday Sabbath every week for the last 10 years or so. (I've been celebrating all of the Biblical Feast days each year for the last 8 or so. Next to my salvation, these have been the greatest blessings God has given me.

It is an honor to walk in obedience to, and be a part of, God's Sabbath and Feast Days that He has set up forever. I find tremendous rest physically and more important spiritually on the Sabbath. It is amazing to see the work God has done in people's lives over the previous 6 days and then to experience it as a body every Sabbath. The Levites were called to perform double duty on the Sabbath, so even though the Sabbath service might be a whole lot of "work", it is a blessing to serve our God and His people on that day.

My family sets apart the day Friday nights with a special meal and blessings and prayers over our 4 children. We go to church early Saturday mornings and are there until dinner time we have a 2-hour service, lunch and then another 1 hour service. Then we usually have dinner afterwards with family or friends. This is the busiest days of the weeks for us, but as I said, one of the most blessed as well.

In this forum there is a litany of threads and arguments for and against the Sabbath. But there are not enough people testifying how blessed the Sabbath really can be. So take it for what's it worth.

 

[Surhope]

Agree with you melgil2013!! And in top of that... Jesus kept the Sabbath holy even in the tumb that's why He resurrected on Sunday, and the ladies came Sunday morning after they rest on Sabbath, and if Jesus abolished the Sabbath... why his disciples kept keeping the Sabbath holy after He left... it is written... "God doesn't change, He is the same yesterday and today, and forever" For me it is very obvious, all the bible talk about it!! Don't believe in men believe the Word!!

 

[sparkman]

Agree with you melgil2013!! And in top of that... Jesus kept the Sabbath holy even in the tumb that's why He resurrected on Sunday, and the ladies came Sunday morning after they rest on Sabbath, and if Jesus abolished the Sabbath... why his disciples kept keeping the Sabbath holy after He left... it is written... "God doesn't change, He is the same yesterday and today, and forever" For me it is very obvious, all the bible talk about it!! Don't believe in men believe the Word!!

God doesn't change, but the way he works with men over time does change. For instance, no one with much Scriptural understanding claims that physical circumcision and animal sacrifices apply. So, the idea that God's expectations of mankind in terms of obedience doesn't change over time is unbiblical.

The Sabbath, Holy Days, clean/unclean meat laws, and triple tithing are in the same classification of ceremonial and ritualistic laws.

One can see that easily by comparing Colossians 2:16-17 and Hebrews 10:1-2. Animal sacrifices are identified as "shadows" in Hebrews, and the Sabbath and Holy Days are identified as "shadows" in Colossians 2:16-17. This reflects their relative importance. The reality of these things was Jesus Christ...they pointed to Him. Under the New Covenant, we have the Reality, not the shadow.

 

[Assayah]

This is just one man's experience regarding the Sabbath......

I've honored a Saturday Sabbath every week for the last 10 years or so. (I've been celebrating all of the Biblical Feast days each year for the last 8 or so. Next to my salvation, these have been the greatest blessings God has given me.

It is an honor to walk in obedience to, and be a part of, God's Sabbath and Feast Days that He has set up forever. I find tremendous rest physically and more important spiritually on the Sabbath. It is amazing to see the work God has done in people's lives over the previous 6 days and then to experience it as a body every Sabbath. The Levites were called to perform double duty on the Sabbath, so even though the Sabbath service might be a whole lot of "work", it is a blessing to serve our God and His people on that day.

My family sets apart the day Friday nights with a special meal and blessings and prayers over our 4 children. We go to church early Saturday mornings and are there until dinner time we have a 2-hour service, lunch and then another 1 hour service. Then we usually have dinner afterwards with family or friends. This is the busiest days of the weeks for us, but as I said, one of the most blessed as well.

In this forum there is a litany of threads and arguments for and against the Sabbath. But there are not enough people testifying how blessed the Sabbath really can be. So take it for what's it worth.

Thanks for sharing your experiences on this. When I rest on the sabbath, I also get a sense of inner peace.

 

[Grandpa]

This is just one man's experience regarding the Sabbath......

I've honored a Saturday Sabbath every week for the last 10 years or so. (I've been celebrating all of the Biblical Feast days each year for the last 8 or so. Next to my salvation, these have been the greatest blessings God has given me.

It is an honor to walk in obedience to, and be a part of, God's Sabbath and Feast Days that He has set up forever. I find tremendous rest physically and more important spiritually on the Sabbath. It is amazing to see the work God has done in people's lives over the previous 6 days and then to experience it as a body every Sabbath. The Levites were called to perform double duty on the Sabbath, so even though the Sabbath service might be a whole lot of "work", it is a blessing to serve our God and His people on that day.

My family sets apart the day Friday nights with a special meal and blessings and prayers over our 4 children. We go to church early Saturday mornings and are there until dinner time we have a 2-hour service, lunch and then another 1 hour service. Then we usually have dinner afterwards with family or friends. This is the busiest days of the weeks for us, but as I said, one of the most blessed as well.

In this forum there is a litany of threads and arguments for and against the Sabbath. But there are not enough people testifying how blessed the Sabbath really can be. So take it for what's it worth.

What would be the difference between everything you do on saturdays, and being blessed for it, and doing all those things on sundays instead???

Would the Lord not bless your actions on sunday, but only on saturday?

Galatians 3:10-12
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.


Except for the sabbath and the feast days???

Romans 7:2-6

[SUP]2 [/SUP]For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.


The sabbath and the feast days pointed to the Blessing we would have in Christ. By His Spirit.

It is a mockery to think we can receive blessing by our work and 'obedience' to the law, and by Christ and His Salvation. At the same time.

The blessing, the justification, righteousness, mercy, Grace, none of these are given to us through the Law.

The Blessing, the Justification, the Righteousness, Mercy and Grace are given to us Through Christ Alone.

Galatians 2:19-21

[SUP]19 [/SUP]For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


How am I dead to the law if I am still working at it, and in my own confused thinking, receiving a blessing for doing so?

Double-minded? Lacking faith? Unbelief?


Isn't it funny how when people come in and say they walk in the works of the law and they are blessed for it it starts a little condemnation monologue going? I follow the law because I'm obedient. You must be a lawless, rebel disobedient to the law, refusing to work at it...

Well, yeah. After the way in which they call heresy, I worship the God of the fathers, believing everything that is written in the law and the prophets.

How? Because it all pointed to the Lord Jesus Christ, in whom we recieve Rest. Are we blessed by the Law or by the Lord Jesus Christ? Are we blessed by His Work or our own?

Why is this not obvious for "Torah observers"? Extra blessing? Extra holy? Extra righteous?

Extra deceived is all I see. Licking the poison lolly pop. Someone needs to slap it out of your hands and tell you no, its not good for you.

But its so good and you like it.

1 Corinthians 15:55-57

[SUP]55 [/SUP]O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

[SUP]56 [/SUP]The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

[SUP]57 [/SUP]But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Assayah]

Romans 8:7- The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.

Proverbs 28:9- He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

Mathew 7:22-23- Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles? And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.

 

[sparkman]

This guy is a previously banned user Eliwood.

So much for his integrity....proclaiming his lawkeeping but freely engaged in lying and deceit.

Romans 8:7- The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.

Proverbs 28:9- He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

Mathew 7:22-23- Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles? And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.

 

[Mac4Yuma]

Hello everyone, I wanted to dialogue about this because I have been researching the Sabbath and Law issues, and I am finding a lot of problems with the standard explanations. I really need to understand the logic of the textbook explanations for why we should throw out the law and Sabbath. I just read an article at https://www.gci.org/bible/torah/exodus2a, and it seems like there are some problems with the logic and claims.

I checked the verses that support Sunday worship and I discovered, to my shock, that there aren't any! With the exception of the Gospel references to Jesus' resurrection, I could only find two verses referencing it. One was Acts 20:7, but when I checked the Interlinear Greek bible I discovered that actually it says "On one of the Sabbaths" instead of the "first day of the week" as it has been translated. After looking closer it appears that they had gotten together for the Sabbath and just stayed really late at night after Sabbath had technically ended, because Paul was leaving in the morning and apparently wanted to preach as long into the night as he could... so basically it was talking about Saturday & Saturday night, not Sunday morning.

Also the other verse was 1 Corinthians 16:2 - where I was once led to believe that they were talking about a Sunday collection - but in the original greek it actually just says "one day out of the week" to set something aside for when Paul was to come... it doesn't even specify a day... so I am super confused. Am I missing something - and are there other verses in the New Testament that clarify this? I appreciate any input, verses or clarifications. Thanks.

For a few we read that Jesus is the example and He kept Saturday over 85 times.

1Co 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Not money but what they had grown to get such together on that Sunday work day! it supports Sunday as just another work day.

Mac.

 

[sparkman]

Mac, are you another Armstrongite?

I see you reference Radio Church of God. That was Herbert Armstrong's "ministry".

I was a member of Worldwide Church of God and have rejected Armstrongism.

I wrote a post here about their bad doctrine:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...rongism-forum-seventh-day-sabbathkeeping.html

Included in this bad doctrine is his teaching that converted men are Gods in embryo pursuing perfection so that they can be born as God beings. In addition, they claim that all other Christians are deceived and are not saved..they are false believers.

In addition, he taught that ceremonial and ritualistic elements of the Old Covenant such as the Sabbath, Holy Days, clean and unclean meats and triple tithing apply to New Covenant Christians.

I would highly suggest reading Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff if that is your current theology.

For a few we read that Jesus is the example and He kept Saturday over 85 times.

1Co 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Not money but what they had grown to get such together on that Sunday work day! it supports Sunday as just another work day.

Mac.