Questions about the Sabbath issue

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melgil2013

Guest
#1
#1
Hello everyone, I wanted to dialogue about this because I have been researching the Sabbath and Law issues, and I am finding a lot of problems with the standard explanations. I really need to understand the logic of the textbook explanations for why we should throw out the law and Sabbath. I just read an article at https://www.gci.org/bible/torah/exodus2a, and it seems like there are some problems with the logic and claims.

I checked the verses that support Sunday worship and I discovered, to my shock, that there aren't any! With the exception of the Gospel references to Jesus' resurrection, I could only find two verses referencing it. One was Acts 20:7, but when I checked the Interlinear Greek bible I discovered that actually it says "On one of the Sabbaths" instead of the "first day of the week" as it has been translated. After looking closer it appears that they had gotten together for the Sabbath and just stayed really late at night after Sabbath had technically ended, because Paul was leaving in the morning and apparently wanted to preach as long into the night as he could... so basically it was talking about Saturday & Saturday night, not Sunday morning.

Also the other verse was 1 Corinthians 16:2 - where I was once led to believe that they were talking about a Sunday collection - but in the original greek it actually just says "one day out of the week" to set something aside for when Paul was to come... it doesn't even specify a day... so I am super confused. Am I missing something - and are there other verses in the New Testament that clarify this? I appreciate any input, verses or clarifications. Thanks.
 
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sparkman

Guest
#3
#3
I observed the Saturday Sabbath for 10 years as a member of Worldwide Church of God. In addition, I also kept the festivals, clean/unclean meat laws, and triple tithing system that the Old Covenant specifies.

I would highly suggest that you read Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff concerning this topic.

In addition, I suggest this website. It is my former fellowship's website. They changed their name to Grace Communion International. About ten years after the founder, Herbert Armstrong, died, the church came to a better understanding about the Sabbath, Holy Days, etcetera, and rejected their false teachings.

https://www.gci.org/law

In essence, the Sabbath was the sign of the Old Covenant, which was an agreement between God and ancient Israel. New Covenant Christians are not a party of that covenant. Israelites are no longer under that covenant, either. As Galatians 3 indicates, the Old Covenant law was only temporary, until Christ came.

I am attaching a document that shows the Scriptures in regards to this.

Groups that teach the Old Covenant still applies to Christians are called Judaizers. Paul dealt with Judaizers in the book of Galatians. Some modern day Judaizers include Hebrew Roots Movement, Seventh Day Adventists, and splinter groups from the Worldwide Church of God.

Judaizers use some pretty convincing arguments to claim that elements of the Old Covenant apply to New Covenant Christians, but their arguments are addressable. If you have any questions please ask.
 

Attachments

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flob

Guest
#4
#4
The ceremonial law is 'thrown out' because Christ (and His death) is its reality.
The moral law is fulfilled only if we walk by the Spirit
 
S

sparkman

Guest
#5
#5
By the way, Judaizing groups don't stop at just the Sabbath.

For instance, splinter groups from Worldwide Church of God also teach very bad doctrines such as mankind will become God beings. They also claim to be the true Church.

Seventh Day Adventists claim to be the remnant church who will lead everyone else into keeping the Sabbath, or they will be under the Mark of the Beast and lost eternally.

Some Hebrew Roots groups migrate toward a Unitarian Monotheistic view of God, like the Jews have, and also move toward claiming that Paul's writings are not inspired. Some claim that they are a special group of loyal obedient people that God is raising up in the End Times. Many of them require physical circumcision.

Many Sabbatarians think that only they have a relationship with God, and others do not. I held that view myself.

melgil2013 said:
Hello everyone, I wanted to dialogue about this because I have been researching the Sabbath and Law issues, and I am finding a lot of problems with the standard explanations. I really need to understand the logic of the textbook explanations for why we should throw out the law and Sabbath. I just read an article at https://www.gci.org/bible/torah/exodus2a, and it seems like there are some problems with the logic and claims.

I checked the verses that support Sunday worship and I discovered, to my shock, that there aren't any! With the exception of the Gospel references to Jesus' resurrection, I could only find two verses referencing it. One was Acts 20:7, but when I checked the Interlinear Greek bible I discovered that actually it says "On one of the Sabbaths" instead of the "first day of the week" as it has been translated. After looking closer it appears that they had gotten together for the Sabbath and just stayed really late at night after Sabbath had technically ended, because Paul was leaving in the morning and apparently wanted to preach as long into the night as he could... so basically it was talking about Saturday & Saturday night, not Sunday morning.

Also the other verse was 1 Corinthians 16:2 - where I was once led to believe that they were talking about a Sunday collection - but in the original greek it actually just says "one day out of the week" to set something aside for when Paul was to come... it doesn't even specify a day... so I am super confused. Am I missing something - and are there other verses in the New Testament that clarify this? I appreciate any input, verses or clarifications. Thanks.
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sparkman

Guest
#6
#6
melgil2013 said:
Hello everyone, I wanted to dialogue about this because I have been researching the Sabbath and Law issues, and I am finding a lot of problems with the standard explanations. I really need to understand the logic of the textbook explanations for why we should throw out the law and Sabbath. I just read an article at https://www.gci.org/bible/torah/exodus2a, and it seems like there are some problems with the logic and claims.

I checked the verses that support Sunday worship and I discovered, to my shock, that there aren't any! With the exception of the Gospel references to Jesus' resurrection, I could only find two verses referencing it. One was Acts 20:7, but when I checked the Interlinear Greek bible I discovered that actually it says "On one of the Sabbaths" instead of the "first day of the week" as it has been translated. After looking closer it appears that they had gotten together for the Sabbath and just stayed really late at night after Sabbath had technically ended, because Paul was leaving in the morning and apparently wanted to preach as long into the night as he could... so basically it was talking about Saturday & Saturday night, not Sunday morning.

Also the other verse was 1 Corinthians 16:2 - where I was once led to believe that they were talking about a Sunday collection - but in the original greek it actually just says "one day out of the week" to set something aside for when Paul was to come... it doesn't even specify a day... so I am super confused. Am I missing something - and are there other verses in the New Testament that clarify this? I appreciate any input, verses or clarifications. Thanks.
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What specific point of disagreement did you have with the article you mentioned? Perhaps I can address the point.
 
E

Eliwood

Banned
#7
Apr 25, 2015
95
0
0
#7
Hi melgil2013 I'm really happy to see your thread. It fills me with joy to know that our lord is opening His people's eyes to the truth. The sabbath has always been the seventh day of the week. It's existed since creation, when God himself rested from all the work He had done.

On the seventh day God had finished his work of creation, so he rested from all his work. (Genesis 2:2)

Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. (Exodus 20:10)

Here is what the prophet Isaiah said about those who keep the Lord's sabbath:

If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you please on my holy day, if you call the Sabbath a delight and the LORD's holy day honorable, and if you honor it by not going your own way and not doing as you please or speaking idle words, then you will find your joy in the LORD, and I will cause you to ride in triumph on the heights of the land and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob." The mouth of the LORD has spoken. (Isaiah 58:14)

Another good thing to remember is that God says he never changes. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. So it's unlikely that he would change his sabbath to Sunday, like many today believe. Thank you for being a Berean and searching after what is pleasing to our lord, instead of just going along with the rest of the world.
 
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moonbeam

Guest
#8
#8
I keep the sabbath on sunday!
 
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sparkman

Guest
#10
#10
Eliwood has posted things from Restored Church of God on this forum, as well as 119ministries.com.

Restored Church of God is an Armstrongite cult, as I warned about above. 119ministries.com is a Hebrew Roots ministry which slanders other Christians.

Wolf warning.

Eliwood said:
Hi melgil2013 I'm really happy to see your thread. It fills me with joy to know that our lord is opening His people's eyes to the truth. The sabbath has always been the seventh day of the week. It's existed since creation, when God himself rested from all the work He had done.

On the seventh day God had finished his work of creation, so he rested from all his work. (Genesis 2:2)

Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. (Exodus 20:10)

Here is what the prophet Isaiah said about those who keep the Lord's sabbath:

If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you please on my holy day, if you call the Sabbath a delight and the LORD's holy day honorable, and if you honor it by not going your own way and not doing as you please or speaking idle words, then you will find your joy in the LORD, and I will cause you to ride in triumph on the heights of the land and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob." The mouth of the LORD has spoken. (Isaiah 58:14)

Another good thing to remember is that God says he never changes. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. So it's unlikely that he would change his sabbath to Sunday, like many today believe. Thank you for being a Berean and searching after what is pleasing to our lord, instead of just going along with the rest of the world.
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J

Jeff_56

Banned
#11
Dec 26, 2014
3,757
19
0
#11
melgil2013 said:
Hello everyone, I wanted to dialogue about this because I have been researching the Sabbath and Law issues, and I am finding a lot of problems with the standard explanations........
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you will always have a lot of problems with the standard explanations, and most explanations,

as long as you seek for the Truth in Yahshua, and stand up for the Truth. (if you stay quiet, fewer people
will bother you about it, but then the Master Yahshua also will stay quiet about you before HIS FATHER in HEAVEN..... )
 
S

sparkman

Guest
#12
#12
Concerning the Sabbath, both Jewish and Gentile Christians would go to the synagogue on the Sabbath, along with the Jews, to hear the Scriptures read. They did not have access to individual copies of the Scriptures like we do today.

Christians would meet by themselves on Sunday to discuss Scripture from a Christian context.

In addition, Paul went to the synagogues on the Sabbath in order to reach unsaved people. His credentials as a rabbi aided in such access.

In about AD 90, due to Jewish persecution related to the Eighteen Benedictions, Christians were no longer welcome in the synagogues. They were already meeting on Sunday to discuss Scriptures themselves, so they simply continued to meet on Sunday.

Sabbathkeepers make it seem as though Constantine changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday. By the time he issued his edict, the vast majority of Christians were already meeting on Sunday. His edict did not prevent anyone from resting on Saturday anyways. They could have rested on both days.

It is significant, though, that when Jesus appeared after the resurrection, it was always on a Sunday when the day was mentioned. It seems as though if the Sabbath was a continuing special day, Christ would have met with them on a Sabbath. In addition, his resurrection was on Sunday.
 
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melgil2013

Guest
#13
#13
sparkman said:
What specific point of disagreement did you have with the article you mentioned? Perhaps I can address the point.
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Thanks, yes what I don't understand is why they say "the New Testament tells us that one commandment — the Sabbath — is no longer in force" - but WHERE does it say that? Their claim is singling out the Sabbath as being redacted as a commandment, and then using that "fact" as proof that the Ten commandment (and the commandments in general) are not expectations God has for believers. To me it seems very disturbing that the Greek says that they were meeting on Sabbath and yet it is translated at the first day of the week and then from that translation we just tell people it was Sunday and then use that as proof that they stopped keeping Sabbath. So basically we use a verse about them meeting the Sabbath to prove the exact opposite - that they has stopped meeting on the Sabbath! This is upsetting to me because it feels deliberately deceptive. Why not just translate it literally? There are multiple references to the Apostles and early believers meeting on Sabbaths & at synagogues, keeping feasts and so forth... so they didn't seem to be separating themselves from the Sabbath at all. I'm really not as interested in modern theological explanations... I am more interested in what the first Apostles really thought and taught and I haven't had time to read the entire NT yet, lol... so asking where in the actual Bible/NT is an explanation or reference about this issue. For now all I have to go on is their actions, and their actions show that they were keeping the Sabbath, which makes me inclined to do the same. Aren't we supposed to follow in their example, and Jesus' too?
 
S

sparkman

Guest
#14
#14
The document that I attached in the earlier post explains the Scriptural basis.

Here is a summary:

The Old Covenant was an agreement between God and the nation of Israel (Ex. 31:12-17).The Ten Commandments are a summary of the Old Covenant (Ex 31:18, 34:28; Deut 4:13, 9:9, 11).The Old Covenant is no longer in effect for anyone (2 Cor 3:4-18, Gal 3:17-25, Heb 8:13-9:4).The Sabbath, therefore, is not in effect for anyone (Gal 4:10, Rom 14:5-6, Col 2:16-17).Christians are under the New Covenant, which has higher demands and different commandments (Luke 22:20, Heb 9:15; Jn 13:34, 15:12, 17; Rom 13:10).The chief of those commandments is to love others as Christ loved us (Jn 13:34).

Jewish believers continued to observe elements of the Old Covenant. You can read about this in Acts 21. These elements included physical circumcision. However, Gentile believers were not required to observe these things. The council of Acts 15 describes this.

Judaizers, who insisted this was not true, followed Paul around like a bunch of dogs attempting to add to the simplicity of the Gospel. The entire book of Galatians is about this, and they are also mentioned in Philippians, where Paul calls them "dogs". The Colossians were also being troubled by a similar group, probably Essene Jews.

The Old Covenant, including the Ten Commandments, no longer apply. Nine of the commandments are moral absolutes, and they do continue to apply. The Sabbath was different. It was a sign of the Old Covenant, and not a moral absolute.

Jesus Christ was a Jew born under the Law, and he kept the entire Old Covenant. The Old Covenant was in effect until his sacrifice was complete. See the Scriptures above.

melgil2013 said:
Thanks, yes what I don't understand is why they say "the New Testament tells us that one commandment — the Sabbath — is no longer in force" - but WHERE does it say that? Their claim is singling out the Sabbath as being redacted as a commandment, and then using that "fact" as proof that the Ten commandment (and the commandments in general) are not expectations God has for believers. To me it seems very disturbing that the Greek says that they were meeting on Sabbath and yet it is translated at the first day of the week and then from that translation we just tell people it was Sunday and then use that as proof that they stopped keeping Sabbath. So basically we use a verse about them meeting the Sabbath to prove the exact opposite - that they has stopped meeting on the Sabbath! This is upsetting to me because it feels deliberately deceptive. Why not just translate it literally? There are multiple references to the Apostles and early believers meeting on Sabbaths & at synagogues, keeping feasts and so forth... so they didn't seem to be separating themselves from the Sabbath at all. I'm really not as interested in modern theological explanations... I am more interested in what the first Apostles really thought and taught and I haven't had time to read the entire NT yet, lol... so asking where in the actual Bible/NT is an explanation or reference about this issue. For now all I have to go on is their actions, and their actions show that they were keeping the Sabbath, which makes me inclined to do the same. Aren't we supposed to follow in their example, and Jesus' too?
Click to expand...
 
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sparkman

Guest
#15
#15
melgil2013 said:
Thanks, yes what I don't understand is why they say "the New Testament tells us that one commandment — the Sabbath — is no longer in force" - but WHERE does it say that? Their claim is singling out the Sabbath as being redacted as a commandment, and then using that "fact" as proof that the Ten commandment (and the commandments in general) are not expectations God has for believers. To me it seems very disturbing that the Greek says that they were meeting on Sabbath and yet it is translated at the first day of the week and then from that translation we just tell people it was Sunday and then use that as proof that they stopped keeping Sabbath. So basically we use a verse about them meeting the Sabbath to prove the exact opposite - that they has stopped meeting on the Sabbath! This is upsetting to me because it feels deliberately deceptive. Why not just translate it literally? There are multiple references to the Apostles and early believers meeting on Sabbaths & at synagogues, keeping feasts and so forth... so they didn't seem to be separating themselves from the Sabbath at all. I'm really not as interested in modern theological explanations... I am more interested in what the first Apostles really thought and taught and I haven't had time to read the entire NT yet, lol... so asking where in the actual Bible/NT is an explanation or reference about this issue. For now all I have to go on is their actions, and their actions show that they were keeping the Sabbath, which makes me inclined to do the same. Aren't we supposed to follow in their example, and Jesus' too?
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I would also like to know what your source is, in regards for the assertion that the "first day of the week" really means Sabbath in the Greek. What particular verse are you referring to?
 
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melgil2013

Guest
#16
#16
Wow, thanks! That is a lot of great info, It will take a long time to study it all though :)

However the last thing you said confused me. You said that new Gentile believers weren't required to keep the law (which includes the Sabbath) ... but so why then were they doing it (I mean meeting on Sabbath etc)... when did they stop and switch to Sunday. Maybe what I need is a history book if there isn't an actual reference to this transition in the NT/Epistles... unless maybe there is and I just can't find it lol. So I guess I'm asking: (1) if they didn't have to keep Sabbath, then why did they, and (2) when did they stop keeping it - and is this something that maybe they discuss in the Epistles/letters? But yeah I get that they didn't HAVE to...

Anyway I will read all your references, thank you... I have to go eat dinner now but I will check back tomorrow for replies. Good night & God bless.
 
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melgil2013

Guest
#17
#17
sparkman said:
I would also like to know what your source is, in regards for the assertion that the "first day of the week" really means Sabbath in the Greek. What particular verse are you referring to?
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My source is the Interlinear Bible (Greek, Hebrew, English) Edited by Jay P. Green I think, I just looked up the verse and it said that was the translation for the Greek... for Acts 20:7 I believe... the Greek was literally translated as "And on one of the sabbaths" ... imagine my surprise lol... as far as I know this is the Interlinear Bible that most people use (it was recommended by my youth Pastor years ago) so it's nothing weird... I hope that helps...
 
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sparkman

Guest
#18
#18
melgil2013 said:
Wow, thanks! That is a lot of great info, It will take a long time to study it all though :)

However the last thing you said confused me. You said that new Gentile believers weren't required to keep the law (which includes the Sabbath) ... but so why then were they doing it (I mean meeting on Sabbath etc)... when did they stop and switch to Sunday. Maybe what I need is a history book if there isn't an actual reference to this transition in the NT/Epistles... unless maybe there is and I just can't find it lol. So I guess I'm asking: (1) if they didn't have to keep Sabbath, then why did they, and (2) when did they stop keeping it - and is this something that maybe they discuss in the Epistles/letters? But yeah I get that they didn't HAVE to...

Anyway I will read all your references, thank you... I have to go eat dinner now but I will check back tomorrow for replies. Good night & God bless.
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Meeting at the Synagogue on a Sabbath is not the same thing as keeping the Law. They met there because the Scripturs were read on Sabbath.

Here is a document that might aid you: http://1drv.ms/1L29Fz2
 
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