Homosexuality is not a choice!!!!
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I dont think Mec was telling anyone in this conversation they are wrong, but that though homosexuality is wrong, all lustful thoughts are wrong, and that though a man is "straight", he also has to deal with urges.
Those who are Christian and deal with homosexuality are dealing with the /same/ issue that those who are Christian and deal with heterosexuality deal with, the struggle against sexual immorality
Im not totally disagreeing with you here, but when we do let ourselves wonder into it, it does become a struggle. Like, we may choose to take that path, but once we do, we can choose to say no to it, but still deal with the temptation of it.
Im just saying that the urges do exist, we can choose to ignore them, but there is always the urge, to some extent.
The homosexual community totally exaggerates the horribleness of the urge, though For those of you who deal with saying no to the urge of heterosexuality, its literally the exact same thing, its all things you have the power to say no to
Those who are Christian and deal with homosexuality are dealing with the /same/ issue that those who are Christian and deal with heterosexuality deal with, the struggle against sexual immorality
Im not totally disagreeing with you here, but when we do let ourselves wonder into it, it does become a struggle. Like, we may choose to take that path, but once we do, we can choose to say no to it, but still deal with the temptation of it.
Im just saying that the urges do exist, we can choose to ignore them, but there is always the urge, to some extent.
The homosexual community totally exaggerates the horribleness of the urge, though
For those of you who deal with saying no to the urge of heterosexuality, its literally the exact same thing, its all things you have the power to say no to Everybody gives in to the sins they do. Otherwise they would not sin.
I think its VERY wrong to condemn a person for being Gay. Just as its very wrong to condemn a person for lying or lusting!
Just remember for every finger you point at a Gay person, 4 fingers are pointing back at YOU!
Matthew 7:1-5
[SUP]1 [/SUP] "Judge not, that you be not judged.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye?
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
I think its VERY wrong to condemn a person for being Gay. Just as its very wrong to condemn a person for lying or lusting!
Just remember for every finger you point at a Gay person, 4 fingers are pointing back at YOU!
Matthew 7:1-5
[SUP]1 [/SUP] "Judge not, that you be not judged.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye?
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
J
The bible plainly says that homeosexuals are going to hell, along with the liars and fornicators. Gods word has already judged them you are merely reading the verdict. But, like you posted in Mathew 7:5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. Jesus plainly said not to judge someone IF you are living in sin also. Jesus, the disciples, and the apostles all commanded us to judge others. Don't take my word for it read it for yourself.
K
Im really tired of people misusing and twisting that Scripture.The verses are talking about hypocritical judging. You do it but you judge others for doing the same thing.Those verses do not condone sin or say we shouldnt call sin sin.Im also tired of people calling people who disagree with homosexuals bigots.Its wrong according to the Bible and saying it is sin is not judging or condemning anyone.Thats ridiculous.
E
All sin is a choice, to say one does not chose to be a homosexual is like saying a person did not chose to be a fornicator. a liar, or a adulterer. All sin is sin, It is what you do with that sin that matters, we all have sinned and fall short. so should never judge a person. But to say we should not call sin a sin is in error.
I agree with you that God's judgement is something we should see, look into, and respond to in ourselves... But I cringe when I hear the "God says to Judge people" statement with a urgency about it. As much as Homosexuals need to submit to the authority of the Word and the Spirit of God to gain understanding so we should shed that submission of Spirit to the understanding of the reference of judgement. I haven't heard you say anything unbiblical but I feel led to qualify the judgement even more for caution of Satan's distractions over it. I hope you can allow me to add to your statements:
So Judgement is a part of the Christian faith, both in way of God and the Holy Spirit in us first, and in our continual redemptive life, to move into us for transforming us for plow of His purposes. But we need to qualify it's placement. God, speaks of judgement that we use in way of saying righteous judgement or right judgement, not all or any judgement will do obviously. One kind will help God to procure His will, another kind found in use will condemn us. So, first off being cemented in Christ is imperative in it's use, as He describes this caution by way of sin found in you first,."... lest you be judged."
Sin is a "being' and if you are found with sin, even a spec, one needs to confess it so as God can cleanse you from all unrighteousness for not to do that before judgement of others is trouble for you in way of your relationship to God. If sin is a 'being' then even one sin means the being or carnal nature is found again in you, and we all know from our first old- self life experience that who rules that debate of right and wrong in us for God's sake is Satan not us. So, righteous judgement will not be found in you.
We can never be THE judge and we dare not judge someones Salvation. Thus, by way of a life-bearing Spirit living, in which we are purified by way of the cross, God has anointed us to serve His purposes toward reconciling people to Himself, as a co-heir then we can stand with confident in authority over Satan by maintaining our rightful place in those purposes He has ordained for us to do. Ultimately, to love people into the Kingdom of God.
Guard your hearts and minds, and have peace in all you do in Christ, for to act in anyway outside of Him, to take back your right to yourself, or think of yourself as a special agent for God will lead you toward your demise in God's judgement as He applies it to you now!
When I see a fervent approach to needing to secure the mission statement of God in His work of His righteous judgement red flags go off in me. For I want to ask, "Why the need to hurry to it, what need we gain in those who know it not yet?" Is it not God not this person whom has ordained it to be so? This is God's power in us, not for us to use for Him. He will never stop being our counselor and administrator of it as we administer our humbled position thru it in our actions. This to me leaves me peaceful, not frothy about it. It is a gift to our poverty not a triumph to our resources. It is us, yes, but only the us locked in a solid grip of God going before us and reasoning in us thru the Holy Spirit, in real-time.It is His fight and reconciliation, not our own, we are but catalysts for His purposes. We need not gain heightened breath or glamour simply serve our invested mission in His timing, His demeanor, His secured anointing.
This is after all a job limited to reconciling of people unto Himself in love. A standing up to Satan and claiming your rightful position in Christ, yet never attacking, for there is no need to. My point of caution is to know we are never right to hate people under the right heading. Nor are we ever to lose hope for peoples reconciliation.. Satan is our stand we fight against not people; Spiritual warfare. We are to act against Satan at times as he works thru people, in that when he uses people by way of their slavery to him, to persecute the church we are told to make a pattern of events for room for God's grace yet to work, but ultimately Satan will have no ability to mock God in His church. People can chose to be aligned with Satan but still Our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against the wiles of the devil and His minions, and principalities. I know this subject has been burnt in these threads but I can't help but respond once more, even here. Sorry for the long post.
So Judgement is a part of the Christian faith, both in way of God and the Holy Spirit in us first, and in our continual redemptive life, to move into us for transforming us for plow of His purposes. But we need to qualify it's placement. God, speaks of judgement that we use in way of saying righteous judgement or right judgement, not all or any judgement will do obviously. One kind will help God to procure His will, another kind found in use will condemn us. So, first off being cemented in Christ is imperative in it's use, as He describes this caution by way of sin found in you first,."... lest you be judged."
Sin is a "being' and if you are found with sin, even a spec, one needs to confess it so as God can cleanse you from all unrighteousness for not to do that before judgement of others is trouble for you in way of your relationship to God. If sin is a 'being' then even one sin means the being or carnal nature is found again in you, and we all know from our first old- self life experience that who rules that debate of right and wrong in us for God's sake is Satan not us. So, righteous judgement will not be found in you.
We can never be THE judge and we dare not judge someones Salvation. Thus, by way of a life-bearing Spirit living, in which we are purified by way of the cross, God has anointed us to serve His purposes toward reconciling people to Himself, as a co-heir then we can stand with confident in authority over Satan by maintaining our rightful place in those purposes He has ordained for us to do. Ultimately, to love people into the Kingdom of God.
Guard your hearts and minds, and have peace in all you do in Christ, for to act in anyway outside of Him, to take back your right to yourself, or think of yourself as a special agent for God will lead you toward your demise in God's judgement as He applies it to you now!
When I see a fervent approach to needing to secure the mission statement of God in His work of His righteous judgement red flags go off in me. For I want to ask, "Why the need to hurry to it, what need we gain in those who know it not yet?" Is it not God not this person whom has ordained it to be so? This is God's power in us, not for us to use for Him. He will never stop being our counselor and administrator of it as we administer our humbled position thru it in our actions. This to me leaves me peaceful, not frothy about it. It is a gift to our poverty not a triumph to our resources. It is us, yes, but only the us locked in a solid grip of God going before us and reasoning in us thru the Holy Spirit, in real-time.It is His fight and reconciliation, not our own, we are but catalysts for His purposes. We need not gain heightened breath or glamour simply serve our invested mission in His timing, His demeanor, His secured anointing.
This is after all a job limited to reconciling of people unto Himself in love. A standing up to Satan and claiming your rightful position in Christ, yet never attacking, for there is no need to. My point of caution is to know we are never right to hate people under the right heading. Nor are we ever to lose hope for peoples reconciliation.. Satan is our stand we fight against not people; Spiritual warfare. We are to act against Satan at times as he works thru people, in that when he uses people by way of their slavery to him, to persecute the church we are told to make a pattern of events for room for God's grace yet to work, but ultimately Satan will have no ability to mock God in His church. People can chose to be aligned with Satan but still Our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against the wiles of the devil and His minions, and principalities. I know this subject has been burnt in these threads but I can't help but respond once more, even here. Sorry for the long post.
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I feel absolutely okay with Christians telling other Christians (or telling other people who want to be Christians) that their homosexual tendencies are a sin, and I also feel okay with a guy on the street holding a megaphone shouting "homosexuality leads to hell", because even though he's a man trying to command people in public to submit to a God they may not even believe in, it's his right to speak as freely as he wishes.
I think people should be able to have their own opinions, and if people want to listen and change their lives, great, and if they don't, that's okay too. I believe that preacher should be able to get up on a pulpit and spout all the negativity he wishes, but I also believe that nobody should be under any obligation to listen to him. On the other side of the coin, if the gay rights protesters get up and make speeches encouraging closeted people to come out, it should again be up to the individual if they'll listen or not. If some people want to come out, fair enough, and if other's don't, that's okay too. In both instances, the power is in the individual's hands. Nobody is forcing gays to come out, nobody is forcing them to stay closeted. Nobody's forcing people to be straight, and nobody's forcing people to be gay. Nobody's forcing the Christians to suppress their right of free speech, and nobody's forcing anybody to be Christian. It works for everybody.
The way I see it, it's a good thing that people in the West are able to live their lives in whichever way they wish, so long as there are safeguards against anybody being physically or mentally abused. If the preacher hits a gay guy, he should go to prison. If the gay guy hits a preacher, he should go to prison.
I don't see any reason why gay people's civil unions should not afford them the same benefits as a heterosexually married couple, because I think it's a matter of personal choice whether a person is gay or straight, Christian or atheist. In my opinion, choosing to be in a consensual adult gay relationship doesn't constitute physical or mental abuse, nor does it take away from any other citizen's ability to choose their own lifestyle choices either.
People can disagree with it, and that's absolutely fine; the same way people can disagree with the people who disagree with it. As long as everyone is able to make the personal choices they wish, and as long as everyone is able to speak freely for or against those choices, and as long as nobody gets power to suppress the rights of all people to speak freely or make their own personal life choices, there's fairness in that.
So yea, it's fine to be against gay people. Voice your opinion, for sure, go for it. Maybe some individuals will listen. Just don't expect everyone to have to.
I think people should be able to have their own opinions, and if people want to listen and change their lives, great, and if they don't, that's okay too. I believe that preacher should be able to get up on a pulpit and spout all the negativity he wishes, but I also believe that nobody should be under any obligation to listen to him. On the other side of the coin, if the gay rights protesters get up and make speeches encouraging closeted people to come out, it should again be up to the individual if they'll listen or not. If some people want to come out, fair enough, and if other's don't, that's okay too. In both instances, the power is in the individual's hands. Nobody is forcing gays to come out, nobody is forcing them to stay closeted. Nobody's forcing people to be straight, and nobody's forcing people to be gay. Nobody's forcing the Christians to suppress their right of free speech, and nobody's forcing anybody to be Christian. It works for everybody.
The way I see it, it's a good thing that people in the West are able to live their lives in whichever way they wish, so long as there are safeguards against anybody being physically or mentally abused. If the preacher hits a gay guy, he should go to prison. If the gay guy hits a preacher, he should go to prison.
I don't see any reason why gay people's civil unions should not afford them the same benefits as a heterosexually married couple, because I think it's a matter of personal choice whether a person is gay or straight, Christian or atheist. In my opinion, choosing to be in a consensual adult gay relationship doesn't constitute physical or mental abuse, nor does it take away from any other citizen's ability to choose their own lifestyle choices either.
People can disagree with it, and that's absolutely fine; the same way people can disagree with the people who disagree with it. As long as everyone is able to make the personal choices they wish, and as long as everyone is able to speak freely for or against those choices, and as long as nobody gets power to suppress the rights of all people to speak freely or make their own personal life choices, there's fairness in that.
So yea, it's fine to be against gay people. Voice your opinion, for sure, go for it. Maybe some individuals will listen. Just don't expect everyone to have to.
Sort of. There are lots of people here who believe being gay should be banned. I think having that belief is okay, in and of itself, but I don't think it should be forced or realized. Again, to summarize my previous post; the power over a person's personal life choices should rest with the person making them.
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I do think forced morality isnt the best, I do this because it doesnt actually stop anyone from doing what they are gonna do, and also gives the secular world ammo for making those who follow God out to be "bigots" and yada yada. I am on the side of "freedom", not because its the best path for man, but because the enemy has ways to turn good intentions to the deception of discrimination.
Well you can count on God never to force you to obey Him. For that matter, any real Christian will not either, they would know better if they were a true Christian. I can't promise conviction of the Holy Spirit over the issue, or people loving and believing God so much they don't try to influence you... but, altho they may be passionate they know God will never force anyone to respond, ever!!
You can be laying on your deathbed about to pass away from this life and are going to meet God in judgement, even then, You will never be forced by God or God's children to respond to His ideas, creeds, commandments, truths, or any of Himself. Truth may respond to you by way of it's own nature, for the self- evident truths He started long ago He doesn't calibrate anymore, He just let's loose. But He will never force you to respond to them in any specific manner.
But the beauty to me of not forcing people and maintaining your rights, is subsided when I learn judgement based on what God says will happen regardless of my reaction to it, and it seems a bit motivating to me to think that my voluntary actions can affect it directly personally!, in fact immediately, and that this will happen to us all in a matter of 100 years or so.
But I do understand from that common experiential phase of of life that there is a feeling of gain in being able to determine my own destination regardless of whether I understand the outcome accurately or not. Control is empowering in human reasoning I get it. I have since learned otherwise, for I have learned and trusted in a man who is a God that knows me better than myself and has proven to me He wants to use His supernatural ability to give me more than my rights can offer me, personally.. The kicker is I am not empowered at all, not at first. I am powerless. But He starts even here empowering me for me. Which has already turned out better than my empowering rights gave me.
Choice-- God wants you to have it for loves sake, so never worry about that one thing. He will never force a response. But there is Judgement coming, there is a way that seems right to a man that will end up in everlasting torture, and a way that will put you in the throws of heaven a place God says you can't even fathom in how great it is yet. I have come to not only fight for the thing you are fighting for now, altho I get it, I now fight to surrender it quickly.
Forced Morality is slavery and is not of God. Freedom is God's hallmark. freedom to be a slave to Himself and all He has to offer. Now that would be scary if you didn't know who God is, so get to know Him and you get why it is freedom thru slavery, not slavery toward an empty promise of morality.
Anyone forcing is going to force many things....that's the nature of the Spirit they live by....sorry! It ain't God!
You can be laying on your deathbed about to pass away from this life and are going to meet God in judgement, even then, You will never be forced by God or God's children to respond to His ideas, creeds, commandments, truths, or any of Himself. Truth may respond to you by way of it's own nature, for the self- evident truths He started long ago He doesn't calibrate anymore, He just let's loose. But He will never force you to respond to them in any specific manner.
But the beauty to me of not forcing people and maintaining your rights, is subsided when I learn judgement based on what God says will happen regardless of my reaction to it, and it seems a bit motivating to me to think that my voluntary actions can affect it directly personally!, in fact immediately, and that this will happen to us all in a matter of 100 years or so.
But I do understand from that common experiential phase of of life that there is a feeling of gain in being able to determine my own destination regardless of whether I understand the outcome accurately or not. Control is empowering in human reasoning I get it. I have since learned otherwise, for I have learned and trusted in a man who is a God that knows me better than myself and has proven to me He wants to use His supernatural ability to give me more than my rights can offer me, personally.. The kicker is I am not empowered at all, not at first. I am powerless. But He starts even here empowering me for me. Which has already turned out better than my empowering rights gave me.
Choice-- God wants you to have it for loves sake, so never worry about that one thing. He will never force a response. But there is Judgement coming, there is a way that seems right to a man that will end up in everlasting torture, and a way that will put you in the throws of heaven a place God says you can't even fathom in how great it is yet. I have come to not only fight for the thing you are fighting for now, altho I get it, I now fight to surrender it quickly.
Forced Morality is slavery and is not of God. Freedom is God's hallmark. freedom to be a slave to Himself and all He has to offer. Now that would be scary if you didn't know who God is, so get to know Him and you get why it is freedom thru slavery, not slavery toward an empty promise of morality.
Anyone forcing is going to force many things....that's the nature of the Spirit they live by....sorry! It ain't God!
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What is worse, a person who is Gay or a Christian who lies all the time?
Proverbs 6:16-19
[SUP]16 [/SUP] These six things the LORD hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
[SUP]17 [/SUP] A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil,
[SUP]19 [/SUP] A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren.
Proverbs 6:16-19
[SUP]16 [/SUP] These six things the LORD hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
[SUP]17 [/SUP] A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil,
[SUP]19 [/SUP] A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren.
Both are living according to the sinful nature and will reap destruction if they continue in it and die in that state. This issue is not about other sins, but is about those who are living same-sex life styles who are justifying and embracing this sin. We don't see people who are committing adultery, lying, murdering, slandering, etc., trying to justify those sins as being ok.
The attitude of those living the same-sex life style are and have been pushing to make this life style normal to the world, that is, equal with marriage between a man and a woman. As an example, we are now seeing commercials showing family get-togethers with two men showing up with their adopted children. We are also now seeing dating shows that are including male to male and female to female, where it used to be men and women as couples.
To be clear, those who are living a same-sex life style are free to do so. But, if your are calling yourself a Christian and are remaining in that life style and have no intention of repenting, then God is not mocked, for whatsoever a person sows to that is what they are going to reap. Those who willfully sow to the flesh will reap destruction. Those who sow to the Spirit will reap eternal life. Furthermore, homosexuality, just like every other sin, is a choice. Though a person has homosexual desires, they have the choice to engage in them or to resist those desires. The true believer in Christ is in agreement with God regarding all sin and will be fighting to overcome whatever acts of the sinful nature that need to be addressed. It is the on-going process of being made Holy. But for those who are justifying and embracing the sin of homosexuality, they have not repented of it and have no intention of doing so, for they want to continue in it and so they justify it and embrace it instead.
What about the Christian who claims to be "straight" but see's nothing wrong with committing Adultery?
Do we need to pass laws banning Adultery and throw these people into jail for the rest of their life?
Do we make the lives of these people a living Hell for the rest of their life?
Then why are so many so-called Christians see nothing wrong with what they are doing to the Gay people?
Do we need to pass laws banning Adultery and throw these people into jail for the rest of their life?
Do we make the lives of these people a living Hell for the rest of their life?
Then why are so many so-called Christians see nothing wrong with what they are doing to the Gay people?
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