Harmonizing the Books of Hebrews and James

JUSTNE1 · Jun 24, 2015

Hello and peace to you,

I am struggling with difficult doctrinal harmonization issues within the books of Hebrews and the James Epistle.

I am not new to scripture and study the Bible regularly. I have read the KJV numerous times and am now reading through the NLT.

Whenever I read through Hebrews, the message that is portrayed to me is confused. A mixture of Old Testament imagery (with incorrect detailing) and sentences such as Jesus "made perfect through suffering", a warning of lost salvation and emphasis on works, as if Salvation is primarily of ourselves.

The James Epistle is easier for me to read but contrary to the teachings in Romans re: Grace vs Works and very "Self" oriented.

I have prayed on this, however, i find myself conflicted between how I know Our Lord as Messiah through The Spirit and these lessons.

I am not blinkered by any denominational bias but at times have felt like just tearing these books from my Bible as I feel that they do not belong.

Did anyone else have these issues which are now resolved?

If so, guidance and input is appreciated.

flob · Jun 24, 2015

I love the light I've received on the book of James. How James is in the Bible primarily as an example of a serious, pious, believer. Even the flesh-brother of the Lord Jesus, to whom the Lord directly appeared, after His resurrection. As Paul says. But who did not see God's 'economy' as cleanly as Paul. Did not have as high a revelation as the Lord gave Paul.
I feel like you can get (more) light on James by tracking him through both the Gospels, but then through Acts. To see his foggy overappreciation of the law from Judaism. It's also instructive to me to read his history after the Bible record of him. Namely his martyrdom at the hands of Jews, I think in Jerusalem.
Hebrews------------wow, happens to be the first Bible book I ever studied in depth, in a concentrated way, as an introduction to it. I feel it was written by Paul. Could only have been written by Paul. And (like the book of James) is directed to the Hebrew believers. The very ones overly-influenced by James himself...

mmm I cant wait for more of your thoughts, and more of a chance to share how incredibly High and New Testament Hebrews is. : )

flob · Jun 24, 2015

oooop, I better try to share an initial help I got:
Instead of Paul (or whoever you want to think the author was-----the Holy Spirit!!)---
instead of the author saying 'you guys need to leave Judaism,' he does it in such a gentle,
'high,' way. A way of comparing all the top thoughts of Judaism---------with Christ Himself.
In other words, showing Christ's superiority. Versus merely 'condemning' Judaism.
I think the first one is Angels. There were angels in the OT, doing stuff, and appreciated by Judaism.
So Paul begins by showing both how as man, and then as God, Christ is superior to the angels...

crossnote · Jun 24, 2015

Hebrews is actually a book written to Hebrew Christians as a warning not to slip back into Judaism. Due to the persecutions going on many found it easier to resort to their Hebrew roots in case they were pressured to deny Christ.
The book is filled also with examples of how much better is Jesus than... angels, Moses, Old Covenant, blood of bulls and goats etc. I really see nothing legalistic about it as it lays open a new and living way through the blood of Jesus Christ.

purgedconscience · Jun 24, 2015

JUSTNE1 said:

Hi Justine.

May I ask what you mean by with incorrect detailing?

dcontroversal · Jun 24, 2015

Well put the books in perspective.....

Hebrews....written to Jewish Christians who were wanting to go back under the law and an inferior covenant...Hebrews is about a better way, a better sacrifice, a better covenant, a better everything...

James is about being able to see a man's faith by what he does and a man's faith is justified before men by the correct biblical works that are evident...

Paul, in Romans speaks to how a man is justified before God....which is by faith.......void of works, which are a product of the faith that one already possesses....

seed_time_harvest · Jun 24, 2015

GOD is a Spirit and must be worshiped in spirit and truth.

James was explaining that if the faith was true on the inside it would show on the outside.
(show me your works without your faith and i'll show you my faith by my works.)

And also he said faith without works is dead meaning if you believe something then there will be a corresponding action that shows that you believe.

Just like JESUS was made perfect by what he suffered.
like they say "talk is cheap" but they can't say that when you went through the fire (so to speak).

Remember GOD gave dominion of the earth to man.GOD could have said I don't like the way things turned out and since I am sovereign I will just fix it,but if he had of done it that way that would not have been right.Since he gave man dominion then man would have to make the decisions on earth so JESUS came into this earth as a man.GOD(who is a Spirit was in the flesh reconciling the world) because no other man could keep GODs perfect law of righteousness perfectly there could be 99 things you did right out of 100 but that one you missed makes it imperfect.ONLY JESUS could keep it.

somewhere it said I don't yet see all things under mans control but we see JESUS.

After JESUS finished he said all power is given to me in heaven and earth.

Before JESUS left earth in the flesh he graced to all that would believe on him ETERNAL LIFE.

And we have access to this grace through faith.

JUSTNE1 · Jun 24, 2015

My friend I thank you for your reply.

I do not wish strife but truth, and as such I will give a few examples from the words of Our Lord, which to me conflict with Hebrews and James.

John 1 3 ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM AND WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT ANTHING MADE THAT WAS MADE

Matthew 4:11 Then the Devil left him and Angels came and ministered to him.

Matthew 26 53 Do you not think i could call on my father, and he WOULD send me more than 12 legions of angels.

Hebrews 2 7 But we see Jesus who was made lower than the angels

John 15 5 I am the VINE you are the branches, if you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit, apart from ME you can do nothing.

Hebrews 5 8 Though he were a son, yet LEARNED he obedience through the things he suffered.

John 10 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, No one can snatch them out of my fathers hand

Hebrews 6 4-6 For it was impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit
And have tasted the good WORD OF GOD and the powers of the world to come
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance, seeing they crucify to themselves the son of GOD afresh, and put him to open shame.

James I find to be an exhortation to works as a sign of faith. But he also states that all good and perfect gifts come from above, so my friend, which is it? faith through grace which produces obedience or misguided attention to self with a selfish self sustaining underbelly? Is it God who perfects us over time or do we have an input into our own salvation and thus Paul's statement of it not being of ourselves is false?

I genuinely wish you all a wonderful grace filled life. Like I said maybe the Lord will clarify the translation for me and lift the fog a little.

May God Bless you.

JUSTNE1 · Jun 24, 2015

My friend, thank you for your reply,

I hope not to strife but maybe learn?

Hebrews has a very dualist gnostic feel. I undertook a study of Hebrews and learned from Jewish sources. As such there are numerous small (but very apparent to anyone who has detailed knowledge of Old Testament) errors in the homily detailing Old Testament rituals,times and persons. Please feel free to look this up as there are many!

To me there are huge misconceptions and a massive devaluing of Our Lord. Let me stress i do not believe for one minute that Our Lord who is from eternal past ever had to "learn" or "be perfected". He gave the disciples power during his earthly missions and raised the dead, but made "lower than angels" , how? He could not sin, had power over demons and life itself. The writer appears to be talking of Our Lord as a Prophet akin to Elijah. This is nothing short of insulting!
I do not hate the Book but it chokes of inadequacy in tutorial of New Covenant Theology.

But hey I am often wrong, hope always to learn more as Our Lord wills.

Blessings and peace

crossnote · Jun 24, 2015

JUSTNE1 said:

Are you sure of His devaluing in Hebrews of our Lord? ..and only a Prophet?

He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.
(Heb 1:3-4)

Jason0047 · Jun 24, 2015

JUSTNE1 said:

James and Paul go together like two sides of the same coin. They don't conflict with each other; they compliment each other. Both teach us something vital. Paul looks at what goes on internally; James talks about the external results. Paul says, "We're saved by faith." James says, "This is what saving faith looks like."

In other words, works do not save in and of themselves. Works are just the natural result of a true faith (Which is when a person repents of their sins and accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior for real). Jesus is the source of salvation (1 John 5:12). It's not you. Salvation is in Jesus Christ. For Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith (Both in Justification and in Sanctification). For Christ does the good work in you. Meaning, Jesus deserves all the glory, honor, and power.

However, just so that there is no confusion here, we have to ask ourselves some important questions:

Who does the "good work" in a believer's life?

Is it God? Or is it the believer?

Well, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) ultimately is the One who does the work within a believer.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10 KJV
Hebrews 12:1, 2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22, 23, 24 (cf. Matthew 7:16, 18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26, 27

For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.

Yeah, but doesn't a believer do the work, too? Now, yes, it is true; A believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10); And a believer is indeed held accountable by their "good works" here upon this Earth at a Judgment. But we must also realize that true believers are not ultimately doing these "good works" alone or of their own power, though. For in 1 Corinthians 15:10 Paul said that he labored more than all of his brethren, yet he said it was not him that labored but it was the grace of God that was within him. So true believer's are just choosing to allow God's "good work" to flow within them or not.

Also, check out this video here, too.

[VIDEO=youtube;ThNDxfvb6EQ]https://youtu.be/ThNDxfvb6EQ[/VIDEO]

Hope this helps.
And may God bless you.

Oh, and if you want to learn about the differences between the Old Testament and the New Testament, I would recommend reading the many articles on that topic at this site here (Starting with this article).

https://www.gci.org/law/lawmoses

Source:
http://www.str.org/articles/faith-an...paul-vs.-james

flob · Jun 24, 2015

As a man............He did. Have to 'learn.' That means 'experience, practice.' And 'perfected' here only means 'completed.'
God didn't just become a man and die. He Lived a (perfect) human life. Which doesn't mean, merely, morally perfect, according to some outward law or standard. But He lived........by His Father. Lived God in everything

That one's 'easy.' It says: Because of the suffering of death. God became flesh and........died. Angels don't die. But man, lower than angels in this way, does. And so God did.

No : ) You just need to see.
It occurs to me that you're similar to Martin Luther in a way. He thought James was contradictory to Paul (which in Acts is not far off....) and I think likewise he didn't get Hebrews

SolidGround · Jun 24, 2015

It seems you need to study Hebrews a bit more. Your are not grasping what those verses mean. Don't make assumptions. Study it for what it is intended to mean. Look at the phrase "if it were possible". That means that it is NOT possible.
As someone very well versed in Hebrew language, culture, ceremony, and Scripture, I assure you that your source is a deceiver.

Also, James does not contradict Romans. James is about maturity in Christ, not salvation. It is about testing oneself to see if Faith is genuine or false. It is about growing in genuine Faith.
It does not preach a works based salvation, or maintenance of salvation through works. Those are misreadings.
It is about having working Faith.

Jason0047 · Jun 24, 2015

Dear Flob:

I am going to have to disagree with you. Christ lived morally perfect and we can too (By allowing Christ to live in us).

SolidGround · Jun 24, 2015

JUSTNE1 said:

It is not devaluing the Lord. You are not taking into consideration the value of Jesus as a man. Both man and God.
He was not some unrelatable being, hiding in the guise of mankind. That is not Jesus.
He learned, like a man. He was tempted, like a man. He grew up, like a man. He died, like a man.
The Gospels make it clear that He was not all-knowing from birth, but had to learn.
This does not detract from His Deity or His Perfection. It is just not diluting His manhood.

SolidGround · Jun 24, 2015

Jason0047 said:

Not sure how that phrase disagrees with Flob.

flob · Jun 24, 2015

This.........you, like most, completely misunderstand. Paul (I'm certain) is saying that It's impossible to be re-reborn. Once you're born of God: you're always born of God. It's impossible to go back into the womb and start again. It's impossible---even insulting---to try to rebegin your salvation. Instead, just continue running

Jason0047 · Jun 24, 2015

Dear Solid Ground:

I believe Christ's Omniscience (i.e. to have all knowledge) was merely suppressed during the Incarnation so as to be like a man (limited in knowledge) (Philippians 2:6-9). For Christ was that like figure (type) of Adam (Romans 5:14), and both Adam and Jesus were limited in knowledge as a part of God's design for a certain amount of time.

Jesus said and did everything the Father told him to say and do. Jesus always pleased his Father. So He could be like a man who served God perfectly so as to be our substitute. But Jesus was also God, too. Jesus said He was going to raise up his temple (body) three days later. Jesus said He had power to raise the dead to life just as the Father can raise the dead to life. Jesus said where two are three are gathered in his name, He is among them. Jesus held everything together by the word of his power when he purged us of our sins (Which would have been on the cross). Jesus had the power of God to forgive sin and provide eternal life to people. Jesus had the power to take away the sins of the entire world. Jesus received worship as God. Only God could do those things. So Jesus was not only just a man who was limited in knowledge, could feel pain, get tired, get hungry, etc. He also the Son of God who was Holy and perfect in everything He did. He quoted a Psalm of David (Psalm 22) not because He was speaking from some human side of Himself. The body was just a shell. For He said so Himself. It was a temple. Jesus was speaking as God but limited in knowledge because His divine attribute of Omniscience was suppressed in the Incarnation. When Christ had achieved His mission, there would have been no reason for Him not to have His Omniscience back. His mission was paying the penalty for sin on the cross, then conquering sin and death with his resurrection, then ascending to the Father (After He told Mary to touch Him not) so as to be our mediator and Heavenly High Priest.

Jason0047 · Jun 24, 2015

SolidGround said:

He said, I quote:

"He Lived a (perfect) human life. Which doesn't mean, merely, morally perfect, according to some outward law or standard."

SolidGround · Jun 24, 2015

Jason0047 said:

Other than viewing His Body as a "shell", I agree with most of what you are saying.
I think you should dig a bit further into the manhood of Christ. It is the primary way that His sacrifice is related upon us. His Perfection is powerful, because it was not cheating. He was a real man, and relates to our struggles, but without ever failing the tests. If you consider struggling to be a sin, then you can't possibly synergize the Scriptures about Christ together, because His struggle was not a mere show. But He overcame, and gives us the Spirit to also overcome, by the Blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony.

Harmonizing the Books of Hebrews and James

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