a low view of the Law, or shallow sin concept

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psychomom

Guest
#1
in addition to reading an excellent book on the subject
(The Proper Distinction Between Law and Gospel by C. F. W. Walther)

i ran across several blogposts regarding same.

some excerpts:

Additionally, a high view of the law will expose the sinfulness and seriousness of sin. The law was never meant to make us righteous in the sight of God (legalism) but to cause us to look for an alien righteousness found in Christ’s life. That is why repentance is necessary to salvation – it is essentially looking away from ourselves, our attempts of being right in the eyes, our performances according to man-made laws to offer self-atonement. Not only that, but the right preaching of the law causes every mouth to be stopped (Romans 3:19) as sinners realize there is no defense for our lives of lawless rebellion to the God who has rights over us as Creator. That’s the seriousness of sin, in that we have sinned against God, the one with whom we stand in judgment. According to Romans 7:7-12, we would not know sin apart from the law. The sinfulness of sin is exposed and even aggravated when there is a high view of the law (“through the commandment [sin] became sinful beyond measure”).

Together then, a high view of the law gives us a truer and deeper understanding of the holiness of God and the sinfulness of man. God is always more holy than we can perceive him to be, and we are always more sinful that we perceive ourselves to be. On the contrary, a low view of the law obscures beauty and brilliance of God’s holiness and gives damning comfort and false security to the sinner.
A low view of the law produces legalism, because the bar is so low that sinner’s feel justified in attempting to be made righteous by keeping it. A low view of the law also encourages sinners to substitute their own laws for the law of God, making self-righteous standards to live by, and judging others when they fail to live up to their own laws. Therefore, a low view of the law is the breeding ground for moralism where God is an utility to our self-righteous ends of moral justification (i.e., God helped me, not God rescued me).
A high view of the law leads Christ-centered, grace abounding salvation. With a clear view of God’s holiness and man’s sinfulness, there is a deep recognition and awareness of our need of reconciliation and redemption that can only come through the law-fulfilling life and sin-substituting death of Jesus Christ. You diminish the holy character of God and sinful nature of man, then the cross of Christ is depreciated and the gospel is cheapened. When there is a high view of the law, there is a corresponding high need for God to do for you what you are incapable of doing yourself–being made right in the eyes of God through grace.

Gospel Centeredness Requires a High View of the Law - Tim Brister <--- link


Does that mean that the Word of God does not command our obedience or that such obedience is optional? Certainly not! But it does mean that obedience must not be confused with the Gospel. Our best obedience is corrupted, so how could that be good news? The Gospel is that Christ was crucified for our sins and was raised for our justification. The Gospel produces new life, new experiences, and a new obedience, but too often we confuse the fruit or effects with the Gospel itself. Nothing that happens within us is, properly speaking, "Gospel," but it is the Gospel's effect. Paul instructs us, "Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ..." (Phil. 1:27). While the Gospel contains no commands or threats, the Law indeed does and the Christian is still obligated to both "words" he hears from the mouth of God. Like the Godhead or the two natures of Christ, we must neither divorce nor confuse Law and Gospel.

When the Law is softened into gentle promises and the Gospel is hardened into conditions and exhortations, the believer often finds himself in a deplorable state. For those who know their own hearts, preaching that tries to tone down the Law by assuring them that God looks on the heart comes as bad news, not good news: "The heart is deceitful above all things..." (Jer. 17:9). Many Christians have experienced the confusion of Law and Gospel in their diet, where the Gospel was free and unconditional when they became believers, but is now pushed into the background to make room for an almost exclusive emphasis on exhortations. Again, it is not that exhortations do not have their place, but they must never be confused with the Gospel and that Gospel of divine forgiveness is as important for sinful believers to hear as it is for unbelievers. Nor can we assume that believers ever progress beyond the stage where they need to hear the Gospel, as if the Good News ended at conversion. For, as Calvin said, "We are all partly unbelievers throughout our lives." We must constantly hear God's promise in order to counter the doubts and fears that are natural to us.

The Law & the Gospel by Michael Horton <--- link




 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,097
6,480
113
#2
This excerpt from Michael Horton's writings I would have to disagree with:

While the Gospel contains no commands or threats, the Law indeed does and the Christian is still obligated to both "words" he hears from the mouth of God. Like the Godhead or the two natures of Christ, we must neither divorce nor confuse Law and Gospel.


In His Gospel, Jesus issued many Commands, and He surely warned of the consequences of those who rejected Him. Now, can a warning be considered a threat? Maybe, maybe not.........but on more than one occasion Jesus was quite blunt in His speaking to those who denied Him.

:)

Still digesting Brister's "high view/low view" concept.....It seems to be embracing Grace, and that is surely good.
 
B

BradC

Guest
#3
Reading that post is a little confusing. When we are placed in Christ, the grace of God did it and that grace is what we live by through faith. The word of God and the Spirit is given unto us by God to build us up in that new position and new standing that we have before him so that God can fellowship with us. We have that new position because we have been made righteous. Sin has no place in that position and we are justified and made complete being perfect in God's sight. For the believer to experience the new birth of that new position he must be have it first and learn to walk in it by faith through the promises of God.

Sin in relationship to the condemnation of the law has been replaced by the conviction of the Spirit so that the believer can receive grace and have continued fellowship with a holy God despite his failure concerning sin. Christ is our advocate when we sin and he reminds the Father judicially that all sin was imputed and judged by him on the cross and can no longer be imputed to the sinner. The believer who fails is the result of the sin nature that still resides within the members of his body of flesh and blood. Paul said that when he sinned it was not him who sinned but the sin that dwelt in him. Today many believers do not put the blame of sin as Paul did. Instead they condemn themselves or others or point the finger of accusation through the law. That is not how we handle sin in our lives or in the lives of others.

We teach, instruct and minister to believers through grace because our fellowship is with the Father and the Son. Our speech is to edify and build up the believer in Christ at all times through words of grace that can reconcile and restore. When we teach what is in the law it is to be taught in the Spirit of life without the ministry of condemnation. Christ put an end to that and came that we might have life by condemning sin in his flesh, something the law could not do.
 
E

ember

Guest
#4
gonna be one of those open season threads....
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
#5
psychomom;2144850[COLOR=#000080 said:
]

some excerpts:
[/COLOR]...we are always more sinful that we perceive ourselves to be...
A high view of the law leads Christ-centered, grace abounding salvation. With a clear view of God’s holiness and man’s sinfulness, there is a deep recognition and awareness of our need of reconciliation and redemption that can only come through the law-fulfilling life and sin-substituting death of Jesus Christ. You diminish the holy character of God and sinful nature of man, then the cross of Christ is depreciated and the gospel is cheapened. When there is a high view of the law, there is a corresponding high need for God to do for you what you are incapable of doing yourself–being made right in the eyes of God through grace.


The premise of these theologians is ALWAYS a state of perpetual sinfulness, a state of perpetual wickedness.

They never argue in favour of genuine righteousness. Righteousness is always a cloak for a state of actual manifest wickedness in the minds of these people. They always allude to this notion that the obedience of Jesus is a SUBSTITUTE for the obedience of the Christian.

...reconciliation and redemption that can only come through the law-fulfilling life and sin-substituting death of Jesus
Is that really what Jesus taught in the Gospels? Did Jesus really teach that His obedience was a substitute for our own because we are incapable of truly obeying God?

No He did not. Jesus said...

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Except OUR righteousness exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, we shall in no case enter into the kingdom of God.

The righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees was an OUTWARD FORM ONLY. In other words they had an outer appearance of "doing the right thing" yet their hearts were still wicked.

The standard that God requires is a genuine INTERNAL righteousness and Paul clearly wrote on how this is obtained...

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Jesus taught the exact same thing...

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

It is the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ which sets us free from the law of sin and death (Rom 8:2) and therefore there is no condemnation upon those who are WALKING (for they are abiding) after the Spirit (Rom 8:1-4).

The theologians quoted in the OP do not teach this. They teach that the obedience of Jesus serves as a substitute for the obedience of the believer. In other words they teach that God reckons the "obedience of Jesus" to those who "trust in Jesus" even though they are still disobedient (because obedience is deemed impossible, hence statements like, "we are always more sinful.")

Just ask any of these theologians if there is ANY particular evil act which must CEASE in repentance. They will always answer an emphatic no because the issue, in their mind, is SUBSTITUTION, not the heart. This is why they write things like...

repentance is necessary to salvation – it is essentially looking away from ourselves, our attempts of being right in the eyes, our performances according to man-made laws to offer self-atonement.
Is that essentially what repentance actually is?

The Bible does not teach that. The Bible teaches that repentance involves a CHANGE OF MIND whereby we forsake rebellion to God and instead yield to God. The Prodigal Son forsook the pig pen and the far away land and returned to his father. The people in Nineveh put on sack cloth and ashes and forsook their evil ways and sought the mercy of God. That is repentance.

Paul described repentance in this context...

Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
2Co 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

The deceivers quoted in the opening post don't teach what the Bible teaches. They redefine repentance into a mere CONFESSION OF SINFULNESS and a CONFESSION OF INABILITY TO OBEY GOD which then sets one up to buy into the OBEDIENCE SUBSTITUTION PROVISION which their deceptive and false religious system teaches.

This quote was a clincher for me in reading it...

the Gospel contains no commands or threats
Only a minister of Satan could make such a statement.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Joh 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Joh_15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

No commandments? Everything Jesus told people to do was a COMMANDMENT.

Repent, believe, strive, keep, dig deep, count the cost, put your hand to the plow, don't turn back, seek, etc as all the commandments of Jesus.

Jesus said...

Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

We MUST hear the sayings of Jesus and then DO them.

Yet preach that today and one will be accused by the religious imposters of preaching a "works based salvation" or "saving yourself" or any other manner of misrepresentations.

When the Bible teaches of "not of works" it is speaking that salvation is not wrought through the outward keeping of rules and regulations. One is not saved via "though shalt not kill" and "thou shalt not commit adultery." We are saved via the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ whereby our hearts are PURE and we thus we neither murder nor lust in our hearts. Blessed are the PURE IN HEART for they shall see God.

Faith is the WORKING PRINCIPLE of wholehearted yielding to God by which the grace of God MANIFESTS within us. This is why it is essential for there to be a "working together with God" (2Cor 6:1) in order that we be "made the righteousness of God in Him" (2Cor 5:21).

It is not substitution. There is no legal transaction.

There is MANIFEST TRANSFORMATION. There is the WASHING OF REGENERATION via the Holy Ghost upon those who YIELD (obey) to God with all their hearts, souls and minds.

There can be no yielding without a real repentance and that is why Satan has redefined repentance to keep the simple ignorant and in bondage to their sins.
 

KohenMatt

Senior Member
Jun 28, 2013
4,011
212
63
#6
in addition to reading an excellent book on the subject
(The Proper Distinction Between Law and Gospel by C. F. W. Walther)

i ran across several blogposts regarding same.

some excerpts:

Additionally, a high view of the law will expose the sinfulness and seriousness of sin. The law was never meant to make us righteous in the sight of God (legalism) but to cause us to look for an alien righteousness found in Christ’s life. That is why repentance is necessary to salvation – it is essentially looking away from ourselves, our attempts of being right in the eyes, our performances according to man-made laws to offer self-atonement. Not only that, but the right preaching of the law causes every mouth to be stopped (Romans 3:19) as sinners realize there is no defense for our lives of lawless rebellion to the God who has rights over us as Creator. That’s the seriousness of sin, in that we have sinned against God, the one with whom we stand in judgment. According to Romans 7:7-12, we would not know sin apart from the law. The sinfulness of sin is exposed and even aggravated when there is a high view of the law (“through the commandment [sin] became sinful beyond measure”).

Together then, a high view of the law gives us a truer and deeper understanding of the holiness of God and the sinfulness of man. God is always more holy than we can perceive him to be, and we are always more sinful that we perceive ourselves to be. On the contrary, a low view of the law obscures beauty and brilliance of God’s holiness and gives damning comfort and false security to the sinner.
A low view of the law produces legalism, because the bar is so low that sinner’s feel justified in attempting to be made righteous by keeping it. A low view of the law also encourages sinners to substitute their own laws for the law of God, making self-righteous standards to live by, and judging others when they fail to live up to their own laws. Therefore, a low view of the law is the breeding ground for moralism where God is an utility to our self-righteous ends of moral justification (i.e., God helped me, not God rescued me).
A high view of the law leads Christ-centered, grace abounding salvation. With a clear view of God’s holiness and man’s sinfulness, there is a deep recognition and awareness of our need of reconciliation and redemption that can only come through the law-fulfilling life and sin-substituting death of Jesus Christ. You diminish the holy character of God and sinful nature of man, then the cross of Christ is depreciated and the gospel is cheapened. When there is a high view of the law, there is a corresponding high need for God to do for you what you are incapable of doing yourself–being made right in the eyes of God through grace.

Gospel Centeredness Requires a High View of the Law - Tim Brister <--- link


Does that mean that the Word of God does not command our obedience or that such obedience is optional? Certainly not! But it does mean that obedience must not be confused with the Gospel. Our best obedience is corrupted, so how could that be good news? The Gospel is that Christ was crucified for our sins and was raised for our justification. The Gospel produces new life, new experiences, and a new obedience, but too often we confuse the fruit or effects with the Gospel itself. Nothing that happens within us is, properly speaking, "Gospel," but it is the Gospel's effect. Paul instructs us, "Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ..." (Phil. 1:27). While the Gospel contains no commands or threats, the Law indeed does and the Christian is still obligated to both "words" he hears from the mouth of God. Like the Godhead or the two natures of Christ, we must neither divorce nor confuse Law and Gospel.

When the Law is softened into gentle promises and the Gospel is hardened into conditions and exhortations, the believer often finds himself in a deplorable state. For those who know their own hearts, preaching that tries to tone down the Law by assuring them that God looks on the heart comes as bad news, not good news: "The heart is deceitful above all things..." (Jer. 17:9). Many Christians have experienced the confusion of Law and Gospel in their diet, where the Gospel was free and unconditional when they became believers, but is now pushed into the background to make room for an almost exclusive emphasis on exhortations. Again, it is not that exhortations do not have their place, but they must never be confused with the Gospel and that Gospel of divine forgiveness is as important for sinful believers to hear as it is for unbelievers. Nor can we assume that believers ever progress beyond the stage where they need to hear the Gospel, as if the Good News ended at conversion. For, as Calvin said, "We are all partly unbelievers throughout our lives." We must constantly hear God's promise in order to counter the doubts and fears that are natural to us.

The Law & the Gospel by Michael Horton <--- link




This is absolutely fabulous, and I hope people take the time to read it.

In so many ways, this has been my heart in the whole Law discussion.

Thanks so much for sharing this!
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
#7
Sin in relationship to the condemnation of the law has been replaced by the conviction of the Spirit so that the believer can receive grace and have continued fellowship with a holy God despite his failure concerning sin. Christ is our advocate when we sin and he reminds the Father judicially that all sin was imputed and judged by him on the cross and can no longer be imputed to the sinner.
In other words the Christian can sin and not surely die.

In other words a Christian can engage in child molestation and murder and not be condemned for it because Jesus already "paid the price."

What an abominable religion posing as Christianity we have today.

NEVER do these people contend that the children of God are MANIFEST in that they do not sin but instead do right.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

No, they don't believe that. They will teach that one can DOETH NOT RIGHTEOUSNESS and be a child of God because "all sin was imputed and judged [judicially] by him [God] on the cross and can no longer be imputed to the sinner."
 
B

BradC

Guest
#8
In other words the Christian can sin and not surely die.

In other words a Christian can engage in child molestation and murder and not be condemned for it because Jesus already "paid the price."

What an abominable religion posing as Christianity we have today.

NEVER do these people contend that the children of God are MANIFEST in that they do not sin but instead do right.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

No, they don't believe that. They will teach that one can DOETH NOT RIGHTEOUSNESS and be a child of God because "all sin was imputed and judged [judicially] by him [God] on the cross and can no longer be imputed to the sinner."
In other words a Christian can engage in child molestation and murder and not be condemned for it because Jesus already "paid the price."

This statement is always trouble for guys like you because you condemn such behavior as abhorrent and unjustifiable. Is the human heart that is deceitful and desperately wicked capable of the most heinous sins? Is not the whole head that is sick and the heart covered with putrifying soars not able to imagine wickedness (Isaiah 1:5-6, Jer 17:9)? This is why we have the Spirit so that we can be convicted of those things that proceed out of the heart. Here is a list of things that are even in your own heart presently... YES, they are in your heart and in my heart also whether you agree with Christ or not.

Matt 7:18,19

18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

Mark 7:20-23

20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
113
#9
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore Perfect as your Father in Heaven is Perfect.

Are you 'manifesting' that? If you say yes you are blind. If you say no you have at least some sight.

So what is your solution? Bash everyone who is not Perfect???

Or lead them to the One and Only One who is Perfect and who makes us Perfect?

The Lord Jesus Christ. By Faith. Through His Grace. Not by your work. By the Work of Christ.

Does the Lord put any conditions on coming to Him? Not that I see. Labor and Heavily ladened. That's everyone who is not Perfect like our Father in Heaven but is still attempting to be by their own strength, their own 'obedience'.

Your not doing it. How come? How come you aren't perfect? I don't know. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong direction. Maybe I don't have perfect faith. Maybe there are still lessons for me to learn.


The Point of Matthew 5 is to show people that the condition of their own heart is just as wrong as their brothers who are committing the acts. In the eyes of God.

Can sinners come to Christ? Yes, emphatically yes. But they won't leave the same. The Holy Spirit will change them. It is this change by the Holy Spirit that we rely on. This is Faith. If He changed us a little He can change us a lot.

I know there are some who understand what I say. I pray that more people who are stuck would come to Christ and find out for theirselves.

Psalm 23:6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.

Because of Faith in Christ. Leading us to Himself.
 
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
413
0
#10
Well, we cannot escape the fact that Jesus died to exonerate us from the condemnation of ALL sin/sins. You can squirm and twist and wiggle all you want, but there is no way to negate His statement of truth.

We all seem to want to find the "but's" and "except's" in Jesus' words. (Others just HAVE to pay for not being as good [or obedient] as us.) But they just aren't there to find.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,097
6,480
113
#11
Well, we cannot escape the fact that Jesus died to exonerate us from the condemnation of ALL sin/sins. You can squirm and twist and wiggle all you want, but there is no way to negate His statement of truth.

We all seem to want to find the "but's" and "except's" in Jesus' words. (Others just HAVE to pay for not being as good [or obedient] as us.) But they just aren't there to find.
Fully agree...........but, oh wait, that's a but, oh well, ....................... but if we do not repent and ASK Him to come into our lives, forgive our sins, and wash us clean with His precious blood........are our sins gone anyway?

Is there no condemnation for the unrepentant who reject Him?


Dat's a BIG but.......... :)
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
#12
Originally Posted by Skinski7

In other words the Christian can sin and not surely die.

In other words a Christian can engage in child molestation and murder and not be condemned for it because Jesus already "paid the price."

What an abominable religion posing as Christianity we have today.

NEVER do these people contend that the children of God are MANIFEST in that they do not sin but instead do right.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

No, they don't believe that. They will teach that one can DOETH NOT RIGHTEOUSNESS and be a child of God because "all sin was imputed and judged [judicially] by him [God] on the cross and can no longer be imputed to the sinner."
In other words a Christian can engage in child molestation and murder and not be condemned for it because Jesus already "paid the price."

This statement is always trouble for guys like you because you condemn such behavior as abhorrent and unjustifiable. Is the human heart that is deceitful and desperately wicked capable of the most heinous sins? Is not the whole head that is sick and the heart covered with putrifying soars not able to imagine wickedness (Isaiah 1:5-6, Jer 17:9)? This is why we have the Spirit so that we can be convicted of those things that proceed out of the heart. Here is a list of things that are even in your own heart presently... YES, they are in your heart and in my heart also whether you agree with Christ or not.

Matt 7:18,19

18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

Mark 7:20-23

20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
Child molestation and murder IS abhorrent and unjustifiable.

The hearts of the children of God are PURE not sick and covered with putrefying sores. When the Bible speaks of wicked hearts it is speaking of wicked people, not those whom have been saved.

Do you really believe that the salvation of God leaves one filthy, wretched and evil?

What kind of salvation is that? Saved from what? Certainly not sin like the Bible teaches.

Jesus said blessed ARE the pure in heart for they shall see God.

ARE you pure in heart?

The Bible teaches that FAITH PURIFIES THE HEART.

Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Do you teach that? No you don't. You argue in favour of perpetual inward filth. Look at your post, your contention is ongoing inward wickedness. Why argue in favour of wickedness when the Bible argues in favour of righteousness?

Has your soul been purified through obedience to the truth through the Spirit whereby you are able to love others with a pure heart fervently?

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Can you testify to that?

You testify to this...
Here is a list of things that are... in my heart...

1. Evil thoughts
2. Murders
3. Adulteries
4. Fornications
5. Murders
6. Thefts
7. Covetousness
8. Wickedness
9. Deceit
10. Lasciviousness
11. An evil eye
12. Blasphemy
13. Pride
14. Foolishness
So you boast in your wickedness and yet claim to be a Christian?

Where is...

1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

You obviously don't believe in the Jesus of the Bible who can set you free from sin. You must believe in some other Jesus who somehow saves you whilst leaving you in your filth.

By your own words you confess you are indeed inwardly wicked.



Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
 
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BradC

Guest
#13
If God ordained certain circumstances in your life to reveal what is in your heart, what would he find? Would he find his peace ruling in your heart? Would he find you with sound emotions? Would he find you with grace in your heart filled with compassion and loving kindness? Would he find your heart with mercy rejoicing against judgment? OR - Would he find your heart filled with insecurity and fear striving against sin? The cross that has crucified our old sin nature, which we inherited from Adam, has made it possible for man not to be dominated by sin or those things that proceed from the heart.

God does not want us to make a provision for the flesh but it is a learning process that we have to learn through the grace of God without being condemned. We have not been redeemed by the blood of Christ to restrain our old sin nature but we have been redeemed that we might put off the old man and put on Christ without striving in the flesh. The strength of sin is in the law. The best way to strengthen sin in your life is to try and keep the law through the flesh instead of living by faith and resting in the promises of God. The more we strive to be righteous the more we strengthen the dominion of sin in our lives.

What we are to do through the Spirit is rest in what Christ has done to sin despite the condition of the human heart. We need to continue in what Christ did to sin when he put them all away and buried them in the deepest sea behind his back. When we sin we are not to see our sin but rather see Christ who bore our sins upon his body. We are to never strive in the flesh to repent of sin but we are to confess in our heart what Christ has done to our sin. If a brother is overtaken in a fault, we are to go to him in a spirit of meekness and restore him through grace lest we also be tempted.
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
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0
#14
If God ordained certain circumstances in your life to reveal what is in your heart, what would he find? Would he find his peace ruling in your heart? Would he find you with sound emotions? Would he find you with grace in your heart filled with compassion and loving kindness? Would he find your heart with mercy rejoicing against judgment? OR - Would he find your heart filled with insecurity and fear striving against sin? The cross that has crucified our old sin nature, which we inherited from Adam, has made it possible for man not to be dominated by sin or those things that proceed from the heart.

God does not want us to make a provision for the flesh but it is a learning process that we have to learn through the grace of God without being condemned. We have not been redeemed by the blood of Christ to restrain our old sin nature but we have been redeemed that we might put off the old man and put on Christ without striving in the flesh. The strength of sin is in the law. The best way to strengthen sin in your life is to try and keep the law through the flesh instead of living by faith and resting in the promises of God. The more we strive to be righteous the more we strengthen the dominion of sin in our lives.

What we are to do through the Spirit is rest in what Christ has done to sin despite the condition of the human heart. We need to continue in what Christ did to sin when he put them all away and buried them in the deepest sea behind his back. When we sin we are not to see our sin but rather see Christ who bore our sins upon his body. We are to never strive in the flesh to repent of sin but we are to confess in our heart what Christ has done to our sin. If a brother is overtaken in a fault, we are to go to him in a spirit of meekness and restore him through grace lest we also be tempted.
Wow.

Do you use a big black marker to cross out almost everything that Jesus taught?


You write a few paragraphs in response where you defend your previous post where you freely admitted that you are a wicked person and fluff it out with the excuse that the ongoing engagement in these things...

Here is a list of things that are... in my heart...

1. Evil thoughts
2. Murders
3. Adulteries
4. Fornications
5. Murders
6. Thefts
7. Covetousness
8. Wickedness
9. Deceit
10. Lasciviousness
11. An evil eye
12. Blasphemy
13. Pride
14. Foolishness

... is a learning process?

When you do those things you are not to see them but just see Christ instead?

Where did Jesus teach anything like that?

Polycarp wrote this way back in the day...

Polycarp 2:1
Wherefore gird up your loins and serve God in fear and truth,
forsaking the vain and empty talking and the error of the many, for
that ye have believed on Him that raised our Lord Jesus Christ from
the dead and gave unto him glory
and a throne on His right hand;
unto whom all things were made subject that are in heaven and that
are on the earth; to whom every creature that hath breath doeth
service; who cometh as judge of quick and dead; whose blood God
will require of them that are disobedient unto Him.
Polycarp 2:2
Now He that raised Him from the dead will raise us also; if we
do His will and walk in His commandments and love the things which He
loved, abstaining from all unrighteousness, covetousness, love of
money, evil speaking, false witness; not rendering evil for evil or
railing for railing
or blow for blow or cursing for cursing;
Polycarp 2:3
but remembering the words which the Lord spake, as He taught; Judge
not that ye be not judged. Forgive, and it shall be forgiven to
you. Have mercy that ye may receive mercy. With what measure ye
mete, it shall be measured to you again;
and again Blessed are
the poor and they that are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for
theirs is the kingdom of God
.
Christianity was a different thing way back then than it is today. Back then they upheld "walking in righteousness." Today it is "trust in Jesus whilst remaining evil."
 

PopClick

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2011
4,055
136
63
#15
Mom!

I've always thought that I have a much stricter definition of "sin" than the people who preach sinless perfectionism. The bible does say that to know the good to do and not do it, is SIN. Not a mistake or poor judgment, but sin. Does everyone really do everything that they know is good to do? Have they never sat on the couch watching football instead of cleaning the gutters? Isn't that sin? They say that's just a poor judgment, and they might even break out the Greek words and tell me that I don't really know what I'm talking about, but I think this is a cool thread. :cool:
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
113
#16
I think you have the best Avatar in the whole internet PopClick.

Can I have it when you get bored and want another one?
 

PopClick

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2011
4,055
136
63
#17
I think you have the best Avatar in the whole internet PopClick.

Can I have it when you get bored and want another one?
Why thank you!

You certainly may. :D
 
V

Viligant_Warrior

Guest
#18
I think the concept is correct. We must have a high view of the Law. But "doing the Law" or legalism is actually the "low view," not the high view.

If we have a low view of the Law, we think we can attain to its standards. We believe the measuring rod is short enough we can reach the top of it. But we can't. Nothing we can do, either side of the Gospel, does us any good. "Doing" is a work of the flesh, regardless if we believe, or even know, we are saved.

A high view of the Law destroys any self-absorbed concept we may have that we can "do the Law." Any but the high view will always leave us warily eyeing unconditional grace suspiciously, as though we think we have the capacity to pull it off.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
113
#19
I think the concept is correct. We must have a high view of the Law. But "doing the Law" or legalism is actually the "low view," not the high view.

If we have a low view of the Law, we think we can attain to its standards. We believe the measuring rod is short enough we can reach the top of it. But we can't. Nothing we can do, either side of the Gospel, does us any good. "Doing" is a work of the flesh, regardless if we believe, or even know, we are saved.

A high view of the Law destroys any self-absorbed concept we may have that we can "do the Law." Any but the high view will always leave us warily eyeing unconditional grace suspiciously, as though we think we have the capacity to pull it off.
Absolutely true.

How come everyone doesn't know?

The veil over their mind that only comes off in Christ?

They've never read Matthew 5?


Is this a mystery and the way we recognize the other sheep in the fold?


No matter how much it is explained it is only grasped by those who already know.


Its the strangest thing I've ever seen. I've always been able to explain things so people can understand. But not this.
 
P

psychomom

Guest
#20
J. Gresham Machen said, "A low view of the Law always produces legalism; a high view of the Law makes a person a seeker after Grace."

perhaps it could also be said a low view of the law produces a low view of the Gospel and a low Christology.
it's only my opinion, but i think cheap law is as big a problem among some as 'cheap grace'.

in our own ways, we seem to agree that there is some obedience God requires of us.
to my mind, that's law, which says 'do' as opposed to Gospel, which says 'done'.
only those in Christ are able to obey God, because it's His work, after all. :)

i thank each of you who contributed, even Skinski... or maybe especially you, since your posts indicate you have a view of law and gospel far lower than one would hope. to me they serve as a great reminder of Biblical truths, even though you neither admit nor respect them.
that's all i have to say about that. :)

a word to my dearest PC who, as my fellow woman poster, went directly to what i was thinking about this, whether or not you realized it. i love you. ♥