Where do women stand before God?

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atwhatcost

Guest
#1
By no means am I saying God is wrong. Likewise, I'm not saying women are better than this, nor do I know if men are supposed to be better. So, whatever you do, don't make this into a feminist or chauvinist response. I'm really really asking because of what I see in the Bible.

1. It was written only by men. (Yes, kind of obvious that the times it was written it was a man's world, but it was also a world where seas don't split in two for a people to pass through and yet that happened. And it was a world where you don't bring back a man from the dead after three days, and yet that happened. God could have had one of the writers of the Bible be a woman if he wanted, but, apparently, didn't want that.)

2. The census in the book of Numbers -- only the men were counted. (And you can't go with "that's because it was those who could fight," because 1 month old Levites weren't fighting, nor were Levites, in general, fighting.) The women weren't counted. Not like the womenz folkz were useless, even in the wilderness.

3. Some of the laws hit on what happened if men... It never seemed to matter, if women... For instance, if a man takes a maiden, (and that's rapes a single girl), the only thing disputed after that is does the single woman go back to her family and they get paid for the damage, or does she marry the rapist. And I'm now in Numbers 5:12-31, which goes through all the ritual of what happens if a man suspects of his wife of cheating, but can't prove it. Nothing happens if a woman suspects -- or even knows -- her husband is cheating.

I know what nonbelievers think. I know the excuses believers make, because I've made them myself. But this is God. He really wasn't dealing with the mindset of a culture, because he dropped that mindset on its ear more than once. So, really, what's up with the "it's a man's world" mentality the Bible is leaving me with? It is God, so where does woman stand before God?
 
Apr 8, 2015
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#2
wow - good luck with this sister :)
 
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psychomom

Guest
#3
oh, boy :rolleyes:

one hopes a woman stands in Christ.
you know, where there is neither Jew nor Greek, neither slave nor free, neither male nor female, but all are one in Christ Jesus?

or words to that effect. :)
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#4
By no means am I saying God is wrong. Likewise, I'm not saying women are better than this, nor do I know if men are supposed to be better. So, whatever you do, don't make this into a feminist or chauvinist response. I'm really really asking because of what I see in the Bible.

1. It was written only by men. (Yes, kind of obvious that the times it was written it was a man's world, but it was also a world where seas don't split in two for a people to pass through and yet that happened. And it was a world where you don't bring back a man from the dead after three days, and yet that happened. God could have had one of the writers of the Bible be a woman if he wanted, but, apparently, didn't want that.)

2. The census in the book of Numbers -- only the men were counted. (And you can't go with "that's because it was those who could fight," because 1 month old Levites weren't fighting, nor were Levites, in general, fighting.) The women weren't counted. Not like the womenz folkz were useless, even in the wilderness.

3. Some of the laws hit on what happened if men... It never seemed to matter, if women... For instance, if a man takes a maiden, (and that's rapes a single girl), the only thing disputed after that is does the single woman go back to her family and they get paid for the damage, or does she marry the rapist. And I'm now in Numbers 5:12-31, which goes through all the ritual of what happens if a man suspects of his wife of cheating, but can't prove it. Nothing happens if a woman suspects -- or even knows -- her husband is cheating.

I know what nonbelievers think. I know the excuses believers make, because I've made them myself. But this is God. He really wasn't dealing with the mindset of a culture, because he dropped that mindset on its ear more than once. So, really, what's up with the "it's a man's world" mentality the Bible is leaving me with? It is God, so where does woman stand before God?
The way scripture represents men and women is simply presenting a divine order of creation and has nothing to do with better, greater, or lesser. The New Covenant elevated women to a level in society that had never been seen before that time in the history of the world.
 
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atwhatcost

Guest
#5
The way scripture represents men and women is simply presenting a divine order of creation and has nothing to do with better, greater, or lesser. The New Covenant elevated women to a level in society that had never been seen before that time in the history of the world.
You'd think that would answer it, but it doesn't, for me. I know I should never teach men. (Well, I'm no teacher, so I should never teach at all, but... well, you know. Just saying. lol) Women are still supposed to shut up in church -- either asking hubby later, or, if minus a hubby, ask someone else later. Nothing about men doing the same thing. I saw no evidence of female evangelists in the NT. There are still differences, even in the New Covenant. Why is that?
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#6
You'd think that would answer it, but it doesn't, for me. I know I should never teach men. (Well, I'm no teacher, so I should never teach at all, but... well, you know. Just saying. lol) Women are still supposed to shut up in church -- either asking hubby later, or, if minus a hubby, ask someone else later. Nothing about men doing the same thing. I saw no evidence of female evangelists in the NT. There are still differences, even in the New Covenant. Why is that?
In America we think of this as being sexist and overbearing but, scripture is not written to appeal to human culture, it is written to elevate us above human cultures. How women are charged to conduct themselves in the assembly has absolutely nothing to do with intellect, superiority, or chauvinism. Women are simply to honor the same relationship they have to their husbands that their husbands have with the Lord. Their submitssion to their husbands is to reflect their husband's submission to God. This is simply an established order of creation.
 
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atwhatcost

Guest
#7
In America we think of this as being sexist and overbearing but, scripture is not written to appeal to human culture, it is written to elevate us above human cultures. How women are charged to conduct themselves in the assembly has absolutely nothing to do with intellect, superiority, or chauvinism. Women are simply to honor the same relationship they have to their husbands that their husbands have with the Lord. Their submission to their husbands is to reflect their husband's submission to God. This is simply an established order of creation.
I never thought it was about intelligence (Proverbs 31 lady was one smart cookie. And Deborah and Ruth were no slouches.) I do think it has something to do with "weaker vessel," but not as in we're made from thin layers of chocolate. More like we're tea cups and men are coffee mugs. Both can hold the same amount of substance, but one is going to break quicker than the other. (Women really are weaker vessels in that way. I haven't doubt that since I was a young teen. lol) I suspect some men hold it as a chauvinistic thing, just as some women think it's anti-feminist, but I'd like to think believers get past that or they never trusted God in the first place, making them questionable on the "believer" label.

Still, the small majority of the female gender aren't married, so can't lay it all down as the duty of the wife. And there seems no way I can get around rape victims were either paid off or married the rapist, and wives never had a say in if their husbands cheated on them. (Or did that change in the NT and I missed it?) I am a wife. I get I'm hubby's glory. (Well, I really don't, since I don't feel so glorious, but I know I'm supposed to be.) I just can't seem to get around God seems to have made women victims more often than men, and he did that even in his law.

I don't want to get around it. I want to understand it. Easy for me to create a god I can deal with. I'm trying to understand and accept the real deal.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#8
The submission of the woman to the man is to reflect their husband's submission to God. Should the man presume to instruct the Lord? Should the man presume to exorcize authority over the Lord? Obviously not. In the same way the woman is not to presume to teach the man or to exorcize authority over him. This has nothing to do with the capabilities of the woman nor the failures of the man. The woman's relationship to the man stands as a type of the man's relationship to the Lord. This is simply an established order of creation.
 
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psychomom

Guest
#9
In America we think of this as being sexist and overbearing but, scripture is not written to appeal to human culture, it is written to elevate us above human cultures. How women are charged to conduct themselves in the assembly has absolutely nothing to do with intellect, superiority, or chauvinism. Women are simply to honor the same relationship they have to their husbands that their husbands have with the Lord. Their submitssion to their husbands is to reflect their husband's submission to God. This is simply an established order of creation.
oh, regarding husbands...

then yes, this. :)
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
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#10
Women stand in the same place as men before God. We, men and women are all sinners and need to be saved. When we are saved we all inherit the same eternal life with Christ.

Because this world is cursed by sin there is now a separation between men and women. God established an order in this sin cursed world and made the man responsible to God and for the woman. The interplay of man and woman and master and servant is woven throughout scripture. It is an image of our relationship to our Creator God.

There is no order in the church unless there is a differentiation between those God has chosen to lead and those God chose to follow. As each is faithful in their ministry God is glorified. Neither can be faithful without the other. Neither can man be saved apart from Christ Who became our servant for salvation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#11

Still, the small majority of the female gender aren't married, so can't lay it all down as the duty of the wife. And there seems no way I can get around rape victims were either paid off or married the rapist, and wives never had a say in if their husbands cheated on them. (Or did that change in the NT and I missed it?) I am a wife. I get I'm hubby's glory. (Well, I really don't, since I don't feel so glorious, but I know I'm supposed to be.) I just can't seem to get around God seems to have made women victims more often than men, and he did that even in his law.

I don't want to get around it. I want to understand it. Easy for me to create a god I can deal with. I'm trying to understand and accept the real deal.
LOL. Rape was still wrong even under the Law. This was not a matter of simply 'paying off the victim". This was a fine levied by the woman's nearest kin as a penalty for the assault and these penalties could be quite substantial, especially if the violator was a poor man. Damages were paid to the girl's father because she belonged to her father.
 

JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
14,551
2,171
113
#13
I never thought it was about intelligence (Proverbs 31 lady was one smart cookie. And Deborah and Ruth were no slouches.) I do think it has something to do with "weaker vessel," but not as in we're made from thin layers of chocolate. More like we're tea cups and men are coffee mugs. Both can hold the same amount of substance, but one is going to break quicker than the other. (Women really are weaker vessels in that way. I haven't doubt that since I was a young teen. lol) I suspect some men hold it as a chauvinistic thing, just as some women think it's anti-feminist, but I'd like to think believers get past that or they never trusted God in the first place, making them questionable on the "believer" label.

Still, the small majority of the female gender aren't married, so can't lay it all down as the duty of the wife. And there seems no way I can get around rape victims were either paid off or married the rapist, and wives never had a say in if their husbands cheated on them. (Or did that change in the NT and I missed it?) I am a wife. I get I'm hubby's glory. (Well, I really don't, since I don't feel so glorious, but I know I'm supposed to be.) I just can't seem to get around God seems to have made women victims more often than men, and he did that even in his law.

I don't want to get around it. I want to understand it. Easy for me to create a god I can deal with. I'm trying to understand and accept the real deal.

Just an observation here not saying I am right or whatever......It is interesting how different people can read the same passages and have a different take on them.... When I read the sex before marriage my thoughts were a couple that could not wait to be married and didn't take it as a woman being raped....... although I suppose it could have been that too.

However, woman did play big rolls in the Bible too. Miriam was a prophetess, Ester played a big part in preserving the race, Ruth helped out her Mother-in-law when there were no more sons to take care of her and was in the blood line of Jesus. Mary said yes to being pregnant and not being married taking on the ridicule bearing the Son of God..... Deborah was a judge that had to be a pretty high position in a mans world....

Jesus treatment of women was always with respect no matter their station in life or race. So God loves women and holds them in high regards it is this sin sick planet that have put us in a lower status and as far as I can tell it is still a mans world.
 
Dec 1, 2014
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#14
The submission of the woman to the man is to reflect their husband's submission to God. Should the man presume to instruct the Lord? Should the man presume to exorcize authority over the Lord? Obviously not. In the same way the woman is not to presume to teach the man or to exorcize authority over him. This has nothing to do with the capabilities of the woman nor the failures of the man. The woman's relationship to the man stands as a type of the man's relationship to the Lord. This is simply an established order of creation.
Peace is more abundant with order, and chaos when order is lacking. Like the road to salvation, order is straight and narrow. Saudi Arabian women are 3rd class citizens who can't vote, drive, and are more prone than men to be executed for adultery.

On the other hand, the onslaught of American feminism has neutered the American man, weakened the family unit, and thus, weakened America. Two polar opposites, both with detrimental effects to people and society. Life on this side of Heaven would be so much better if men and women alike were all humble before God.
 
R

Rosesrock

Guest
#15
Where does a woman stand in God's eyes?? The same place men are. John 3:16 for God so loved the world.
we are equal sinners. Romans 3:23 for all have sinned.
As far as daily living there is a foundation laid for family husband, wife, kiddos. And their relationship there. :) I'm in the car on my phone or I'd write more.
 
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psychomom

Guest
#16
It is not just husbands. It is the role of women and men in general in the Church, not just husband and wife.
you sayin' i have to do what every man in church says? :rolleyes:

lol... i agree.
 

Joidevivre

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2014
3,838
271
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#17
In our house, the main difference is that he puts the toilet seat up and I put it down. Otherwise, we have done everything equally as partners. In marriage, you become one.

Taking this further into the church, both men and women become one in Christ. Equality there also.

About the OT where men who slept with a "woman in the field without her consent" were supposed to marry her, it was about covenants in those days. All covenants were sealed by blood (even marriage) between families. The reason a woman was created with a hyman was for that purpose - to bleed a little to establish the covenant of marriage in the eyes of God. In the Eastern countries, this is still looked for on the wedding night to seal the marriage in the eyes of the families. And the marriage between a man and woman is one of covenant before God and to each other.

I suppose this will be greatly debated, but when I studied this, it made sense to me. And explained why it was so important to God that the man who took her for the first time marry her. No matter how it happened.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#18
you sayin' i have to do what every man in church says? :rolleyes:

lol... i agree.
LOL. Oh, would that it were so. LOL

This does not seem to be what Paul is saying. What he says is "If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home." The word for husband here is ἄνδρας - men. This is also sometimes translated as husband as in 1Cr 14:35. Yet, the intent of the word seems to be "her men" i.e the men within her household whether it be a father, brother, or husband but at the same time her submission is to be to all the men in the body within the established context.
 
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p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,097
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#19
Just an observation here not saying I am right or whatever......It is interesting how different people can read the same passages and have a different take on them.... When I read the sex before marriage my thoughts were a couple that could not wait to be married and didn't take it as a woman being raped....... although I suppose it could have been that too.

However, woman did play big rolls in the Bible too. Miriam was a prophetess, Ester played a big part in preserving the race, Ruth helped out her Mother-in-law when there were no more sons to take care of her and was in the blood line of Jesus. Mary said yes to being pregnant and not being married taking on the ridicule bearing the Son of God..... Deborah was a judge that had to be a pretty high position in a mans world....

Jesus treatment of women was always with respect no matter their station in life or race. So God loves women and holds them in high regards it is this sin sick planet that have put us in a lower status and as far as I can tell it is still a mans world.
........and there was Priscilla who, along with her husband, taught men, instructing one certain young man in a more perfect understanding of the Gospel.

I'm waiting with "bated breath" for the GRACE ONLY folks to show up and defend women...........surely GRACE ONLY applies to women just as it does to men.......?
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,097
6,480
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#20
LOL. Oh, would that it were so. LOL

This does not seem to be what Paul is saying. What he says is "If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home." The word for husband here is ἄνδρας - men. This is also sometimes translated as husband as in 1Cr 14:35. Yet, the intent of the word seems to be "her men" i.e the men within her household whether it be a father, brother, or husband but at the same time her submission is to be to all the men in the body within the established context.
Well, that took care of GRACE ONLY............