Christians vs Jews?

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p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,195
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#41
yes the holy spirit rsides in all who accept him but what I mean is the Jews and their ways of faith in general, like do they like Christians base their faith on a personal intimate relationship with God?
Those who choose to remain under the Law can not have a "personal, intimate relationship with God. That is why Jesus came, and the New Covenant established. You should know this.

Under the First Covenant, Law, God's chosen people were a Nation. The Nation of Israel. Under the New Covenant, God's chosen people are the Church. Those who believe in and confess the name of Jesus as Lord and Savior. Paul spoke of this quite clearly.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,195
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#42
All kidding aside, God will have himself a people from all nations. That includes some Jews, but it's not a given.
Seriously? My goodness. There were thousands and thousands of Jews who believed in and became disciples of Jesus Christ.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#43
I will never understand why people will ask and/or comment on questions like those being posed here, and NOT ask Jesus.

John 10:14 .) I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 .) As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 .) And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
17 .) Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 .) No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.



One can choose to believe Jesus, or not............sigh
 
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Elysian

Guest
#44
Please stop it, I do not claim to know more than jesus.I am simply stating the obvious,God had complete power over what was happening at Calvary'',it was Gods will to bruise him''.God planned our salvation before he created us and the Roman soldiers were instruments in Christs death,sure they physically killed him but all of this was Gods will, that he God should die in our place,God orchestrated the event.
 
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kaylagrl

Guest
#45
Those who choose to remain under the Law can not have a "personal, intimate relationship with God. That is why Jesus came, and the New Covenant established. You should know this.

Under the First Covenant, Law, God's chosen people were a Nation. The Nation of Israel. Under the New Covenant, God's chosen people are the Church. Those who believe in and confess the name of Jesus as Lord and Savior. Paul spoke of this quite clearly.
Sorry you lost me with the replacement theology.The church has not replaced the Jews.I know this argument and it has been used to persecute Jews for hundreds of years.It is a false theology. I say this respectfully because I appreciate your posts and we agree much of the time.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,195
6,536
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#46
Sorry you lost me with the replacement theology.The church has not replaced the Jews.I know this argument and it has been used to persecute Jews for hundreds of years.It is a false theology. I say this respectfully because I appreciate your posts and we agree much of the time.
Sorry, your argument is with the Apostle Paul...........The Nation of Israel, those who deny Christ, and choose to live under the Law of the First Covenant are no longer God's chosen people. WHOSOEVER's (as in John 3:16) are since the establishment of the New Covenant. Does not mean someone of Jewish blood can not be a Christian, but they must confess the Name of Jesus and believe in/become a disciple of Him. Paul is clear about this.

Folks are welcome to disagree.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,195
6,536
113
#47
Please stop it, I do not claim to know more than jesus.I am simply stating the obvious,God had complete power over what was happening at Calvary'',it was Gods will to bruise him''.God planned our salvation before he created us and the Roman soldiers were instruments in Christs death,sure they physically killed him but all of this was Gods will, that he God should die in our place,God orchestrated the event.
Was this the salvation plan God designed? Yes. His will, well - it was His plan. However, God did not KILL Jesus, just to be clear. Jesus COULD HAVE said "no." Even prayed such, but HE CHOSE to be obedient to the will of God.

17 .) Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

And this is the "bruised heel" of all those who deny free will.....................

(how's that for a zinger?)
:)
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#48
Sorry, your argument is with the Apostle Paul...........The Nation of Israel, those who deny Christ, and choose to live under the Law of the First Covenant are no longer God's chosen people. WHOSOEVER's (as in John 3:16) are since the establishment of the New Covenant. Does not mean someone of Jewish blood can not be a Christian, but they must confess the Name of Jesus and believe in/become a disciple of Him. Paul is clear about this.

Folks are welcome to disagree.

Thats not what Kayla or anyone else is saying. You should know better than this.

No one will get to heaven apart from Christ as Lord. A jew or gentile.

But the church did not replace Israel. God still has a plan for Israel. they will repent.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
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#49
Please stop it, I do not claim to know more than jesus.I am simply stating the obvious,God had complete power over what was happening at Calvary'',it was Gods will to bruise him''.God planned our salvation before he created us and the Roman soldiers were instruments in Christs death,sure they physically killed him but all of this was Gods will, that he God should die in our place,God orchestrated the event.
But this does not in any way limit their guilt. Men are responsible for what they do. I am not sure that you are right in saying 'God orchestrated the event'. He didn't need to. He knew that He could rely on men to do their worst. However as Jesus said, 'those who delivered m unto you have the greater guilt.
 
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kaylagrl

Guest
#50
Sorry, your argument is with the Apostle Paul...........The Nation of Israel, those who deny Christ, and choose to live under the Law of the First Covenant are no longer God's chosen people. WHOSOEVER's (as in John 3:16) are since the establishment of the New Covenant. Does not mean someone of Jewish blood can not be a Christian, but they must confess the Name of Jesus and believe in/become a disciple of Him. Paul is clear about this.

Folks are welcome to disagree.

Romans 11 (ten characters}
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,195
6,536
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#51
Romans 2:28 .) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 .) But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


Now as for the other comment:

QUOTE:

Thats not what Kayla or anyone else is saying. You should know better than this.

No one will get to heaven apart from Christ as Lord. A jew or gentile.

But the church did not replace Israel. God still has a plan for Israel. they will repent.

END QUOTATION.......

Millions of Jews have died since the death, burial and resurrection/ascent of Jesus to the Throne. And they died in denial of Him. As for Nation of Israel "repenting" and ALL being saved, even Paul himself INCLUDED a stipulation/condition for this to happen. And, IF he thought it necessary to do so, then it is NOT a GIVEN is it?

Romans 11:23 .) And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Pretty clear...................Paul himself (with the establishment of the New Covenant/Church) no longer considered those who denied Christ to be "true Jews," rather he shows in his writings that those who believe in and confess Christ are the true Jews, true chosen people of God.


 
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kaylagrl

Guest
#52

Thats not what Kayla or anyone else is saying. You should know better than this.

No one will get to heaven apart from Christ as Lord. A jew or gentile.

But the church did not replace Israel. God still has a plan for Israel. they will repent.
Thank you very much! Well spoken. :)
 
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kaylagrl

Guest
#53
Romans 2:28 .) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 .) But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


Now as for the other comment:

QUOTE:

Thats not what Kayla or anyone else is saying. You should know better than this.

No one will get to heaven apart from Christ as Lord. A jew or gentile.

But the church did not replace Israel. God still has a plan for Israel. they will repent.

END QUOTATION.......

Millions of Jews have died since the death, burial and resurrection/ascent of Jesus to the Throne. And they died in denial of Him. As for Nation of Israel "repenting" and ALL being saved, even Paul himself INCLUDED a stipulation/condition for this to happen. And, IF he thought it necessary to do so, then it is NOT a GIVEN is it?

Romans 11:23 .) And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Pretty clear...................Paul himself (with the establishment of the New Covenant/Church) no longer considered those who denied Christ to be "true Jews," rather he shows in his writings that those who believe in and confess Christ are the true Jews, true chosen people of God.


You are talking replacement theology and it is false.No one is saying unbelieving Jews will not be saved.Im saying the church does not replace Israel.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#54

Thats not what Kayla or anyone else is saying. You should know better than this.

No one will get to heaven apart from Christ as Lord. A jew or gentile.

But the church did not replace Israel. God still has a plan for Israel. they will repent.
you see this is where many of you go wrong. After the resurrection all the believing Jews got together. They were the faithful remnant of Israel. They were THE TRUE ISRAEL. Unbelieving Israel were cast off from Israel. The 'church' (assembly of Israel) were the true Israel. They were the PROMISED REMNANT. Then they began to accept Gentile proselytes AS ISRAEL HAD ALWAYS DONE. Thus the church was and IS the TRUE ISRAEL (NOT a replacement Israel).

That indeed is what the circumcision controversy was all about. If the Gentiles were becoming proselytes should they not be circumcised? Paul's reply was NOT that they were not becoming Israelites, it was that in uniting with Christ they were circumcised through Him.

God's promises now belonged to the true Israel. That this could happen is PROVED by Numbers 14.12.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#55
You are talking replacement theology and it is false.No one is saying unbelieving Jews will not be saved.Im saying the church does not replace Israel.
Of course it does not replace Israel. It IS the true Israel. As Rom 11.12-24 make clear. see also Eph 2.12-22; 1 Peter 2.9; James 1.1
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#56
Romans 2:28 .) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 .) But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Why thank you. You just proved what I said was correct.


No one will get to heaven apart from Christ as Lord. A jew or gentile.
Now as for the other comment:

Millions of Jews have died since the death, burial and resurrection/ascent of Jesus to the Throne. And they died in denial of Him. As for Nation of Israel "repenting" and ALL being saved, even Paul himself INCLUDED a stipulation/condition for this to happen. And, IF he thought it necessary to do so, then it is NOT a GIVEN is it?

Romans 11:23 .) And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Pretty clear...................Paul himself (with the establishment of the New Covenant/Church) no longer considered those who denied Christ to be "true Jews," rather he shows in his writings that those who believe in and confess Christ are the true Jews, true chosen people of God.



Yep. and probably a million more will die in rejection of Christ before they repent as a nation.

Funny how you agree with the stipulation. yet missed the most important part.


1. When it will happen - [SUP]25 [/SUP]For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

2. What will happen -
[SUP]26 [/SUP]And so all Israel will be saved,[SUP][g][/SUP] as it is written:“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; [SUP]27 [/SUP]For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”



3. What Paul and God thinks of Israel worldwide -
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. [SUP]29 [/SUP]For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Of course if you want to continue to argue that the church as a group of people has replaced israel as a group of people, then you can keep trying to argue, but you will have to prove it in context of what is being said, Sorry, Context does not support your view in my mind,, nor does Paul

 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#57
you see this is where many of you go wrong. After the resurrection all the believing Jews got together. They were the faithful remnant of Israel. They were THE TRUE ISRAEL. Unbelieving Israel were cast off from Israel. The 'church' (assembly of Israel) were the true Israel. They were the PROMISED REMNANT. Then they began to accept Gentile proselytes AS ISRAEL HAD ALWAYS DONE. Thus the church was and IS the TRUE ISRAEL (NOT a replacement Israel).

That indeed is what the circumcision controversy was all about. If the Gentiles were becoming proselytes should they not be circumcised? Paul's reply was NOT that they were not becoming Israelites, it was that in uniting with Christ they were circumcised through Him.

God's promises now belonged to the true Israel. That this could happen is PROVED by Numbers 14.12.
No, where many of YOU go wrong is what is the topic of election.

God did not replace the election of Isreal and the promises made to their fathers with the church. Eternal salvation has ALWAYS been apart from these promises. and has always been of one means, faith in Gods provision.


Paul did not stutter in romans 11 when he said at a point of time in the future all isreal will be saved, The church of rome rejected this in their means to decry Isreal, unfortunately. many of those who left that church took that belief with them. It mocks God and his promises and is a dangerous doctrine.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#59
Without having faith in Him?
How can they be saved through the shed blood apart from Faith? and who is saying they are, or ever have been?
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,195
6,536
113
#60
Have done so. You will ever reject the simplistic statement of the Apostle.......that is your choice.

And one can not discuss the 11th Chapter without first understanding why Paul is saying what he is saying. That also is "context." Look at Chapter 10.

[h=1]Romans
10[/h]
1 .) Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 .) For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 .) For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 .) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

From here one can read "in context" the rest of Chapter 10, and 11.

And to suggest that all the millions of people who have died in "unbelief" - in their sins - from that time until this.......will be "saved" is to make null and void the blood of Christ in my opinion. For it is to justify "all paths lead to heaven" and to deny that God is a "Just God." To say that of all who have died in unbelief/their sins .......... only those of Jewish blood will be "saved" and all others condemned is to also deny that God is a "Just God."

Paul clearly states that they must not "still abide in their unbelief." Those who have died, died in unbelief. To believe that they will STILL be granted eternal life by God is to justify all paths lead to heaven. For if unbelievers can receive eternal life, then there is no reason for believers to remain in the Faith. If those who live after the flesh can receive eternal life, why should any deny self and live for Him?

Paul speaks clearly again and again.

Galatians 3:23 .) But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 .) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 .) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 .) For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 .) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 .) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 .) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Chapter 4:4 .) But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 .) To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 .) And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 .) Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.



Believe as you wish...........but there is much to be reconciled with the teachings of Paul under your assertion. I will accept the Words of Christ and the teachings of Paul.