New Testament Old Testament Prophecy Conundrum

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J

JUSTNE1

Guest
#1
#1
Has anybody else noticed that at times the New Testament uses Old Testament prophecies which appear totally out of context to the original author.

Just a few examples (all alluding to OT scripture as detailed in notations)

Matthew 2 15

"I called my son out of Egypt" (Hosea 11:1 Apparent Context is The father speaking of the Exodus narrative)

Matthew 2 18

"A cry of Anguish is heard in Ramah- weeping and mournining unrestrained,
Rachel weeps for her children, refusing to be comforted-for they are dead"

(Jeremiah 31:15 Apparent context is The Father redeeming the exiles as 31:16 follows: But now the Lord says "Do not weep any longer for I will reward you. Your children will come back from the distant land of the enemy...18 I have heard Isreal saying "you have disciplined me severely, but I deserved it")

Paul
1 Corinthians 9:9
"Do not muzzle the Ox while it is treading" inferring payment to priests

(Deut 25:4 A law of Moses to be kind to animals, not a proverb but used as such)

Before anyone wants to start Bashing and throwing Bibles at me, I am not new to scripture and Love Our Lord.

My question would be more along the lines of:

Do Prophecies have multiple meanings?
Isnt using Biblical passages out of Context in order to make a reasoned argument the cause of so many denominations?
Did the Prophets themselves fully understand them?
Why teach New Doctrine with an out of context quote as it can cause debate?

This may have all been covered before. So apologies if this is the case.
 
oldhermit

oldhermit

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#2
Jul 28, 2012
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#2
How do you see the NT. Is it a revealed document from the mind of God or is it purely the creation of the human mind?
 
J

JUSTNE1

Guest
#3
#3
oldhermit said:
How do you see the NT. Is it a revealed document from the mind of God or is it purely the creation of the human mind?
Click to expand...
I believe the original teachings are God breathed but men are men and we deceive ourselves.
Esther is a strange OT book which the Greeks added a verse because it doesnt mention God or give him Glory.
There are some quite obvious differences between the teachings of Jesus in the Synoptics and the Pauline Epistles.
Revelation is just bewildering and causes much friction.
Hebrews is an odd manuscript that is un authorised and misquotes OT and NT doctrine and James is a devotional to "Self".
Our Lord quoted Jewish sources that they would know which are not OT written sources eg, Zechariah the Son of Berachiah murdered in the temple.
I believe in the messages but am sure Satan was at work pretty quickly after ascension. This can be shown with Peter and Paul disputing over eating Customs.
 
prove-all

prove-all

Senior Member
#4
May 16, 2014
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#4
JUSTNE1 said:
Has anybody else noticed that at times the New Testament uses Old Testament prophecies which appear totally out of context to the original author.


My question would be more along the lines of:

Do Prophecies have multiple meanings?


Isnt using Biblical passages out of Context in order to make a reasoned argument the cause of so many denominations?

Did the Prophets themselves fully understand them?



This may have all been covered before. So apologies if this is the case.
Click to expand...

-they have dual meaning everywhere , first physical[old] now spritual.
like the meaning of Gods convocations in the past,
show what happens in the future events to come.


-the pangeles of lite disguised , but are wolves in sheeps clothing.
many will come in his name.

-Prohets themselves did not fully understand , see Daniel, he even fought with the devil.
only what God wanted said, by prophets, and recorded


the bible has tons of verses the devil and minions would take over the church.
 
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oldhermit

oldhermit

Senior Member
#5
Jul 28, 2012
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#5
JUSTNE1 said:
I believe the original teachings are God breathed but men are men and we deceive ourselves.
Esther is a strange OT book which the Greeks added a verse because it doesnt mention God or give him Glory.
There are some quite obvious differences between the teachings of Jesus in the Synoptics and the Pauline Epistles.
Revelation is just bewildering and causes much friction.
Hebrews is an odd manuscript that is un authorised and misquotes OT and NT doctrine and James is a devotional to "Self".
Our Lord quoted Jewish sources that they would know which are not OT written sources eg, Zechariah the Son of Berachiah murdered in the temple.
I believe in the messages but am sure Satan was at work pretty quickly after ascension. This can be shown with Peter and Paul disputing over eating Customs.
Click to expand...
You have such a misconception of the Bible and its revealed context that I am not even sure where to begin to address your questions.
 
J

JUSTNE1

Guest
#6
#6
That's OK,

Thanks for your feedback.
 
T

Tintin

Guest
#7
#7
JUSTNE1 said:
I believe the original teachings are God breathed but men are men and we deceive ourselves.
Esther is a strange OT book which the Greeks added a verse because it doesnt mention God or give him Glory.
There are some quite obvious differences between the teachings of Jesus in the Synoptics and the Pauline Epistles.
Revelation is just bewildering and causes much friction.
Hebrews is an odd manuscript that is un authorised and misquotes OT and NT doctrine and James is a devotional to "Self".
Our Lord quoted Jewish sources that they would know which are not OT written sources eg, Zechariah the Son of Berachiah murdered in the temple.
I believe in the messages but am sure Satan was at work pretty quickly after ascension. This can be shown with Peter and Paul disputing over eating Customs.
Click to expand...
Good gravy! Listen to God, not the biblical scholars and theologians who are trying to discredit His revelation.
 
J

JUSTNE1

Guest
#9
#9
My point is that if prophecies have multiple meanings then even someone like myself could mould any scriptural reference into any doctrine I decide to believe.

God is not the author of confusion

So why would he make prophecies that Connot be perfectly understood and interpreted.

To say after the event is a bit weak.

I could prophecy that "there will be clouds that cover the earth, people will talk evil of neighbours, famine will abound"

Then the news comes on TV and there are floods caused by storms which have ruined crops and people are fighting looting supplies.

And I say there you go!

No, I have just used a common occurrence and moulded it to fit what I like.

God does not need to do this kind of thing.
 
oldhermit

oldhermit

Senior Member
#10
Jul 28, 2012
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#10
JUSTNE1 said:
My point is that if prophecies have multiple meanings then even someone like myself could mould any scriptural reference into any doctrine I decide to believe.

God is not the author of confusion

So why would he make prophecies that Connot be perfectly understood and interpreted.

To say after the event is a bit weak.

I could prophecy that "there will be clouds that cover the earth, people will talk evil of neighbours, famine will abound"

Then the news comes on TV and there are floods caused by storms which have ruined crops and people are fighting looting supplies.

And I say there you go!

No, I have just used a common occurrence and moulded it to fit what I like.

God does not need to do this kind of thing.
Click to expand...
You are absolutely correct. Do you believe God to be the author of both the OT and the NT?
 
J

JUSTNE1

Guest
#11
#11
Tintin said:
Good gravy! Listen to God, not the biblical scholars and theologians who are trying to discredit His revelation.
Click to expand...
I am glad it is not just me that looks at things a little objectively (by Gods grace)
Thank you and Blessings.
 
J

JUSTNE1

Guest
#12
#12
Jesus quoted from numerous Old Testament sources and we have good dating evidence, so I am good with the OT except Esther.

New Testament I really embrace the Johannine Epistles (except Revelation). I Love the Synoptics and The fundamentals of Pauline doctrine.

I believe that the New Testament has been tampered with over time.
 
oldhermit

oldhermit

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#13
Jul 28, 2012
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#13
JUSTNE1 said:
Jesus quoted from numerous Old Testament sources and we have good dating evidence, so I am good with the OT except Esther.

New Testament I really embrace the Johannine Epistles (except Revelation). I Love the Synoptics and The fundamentals of Pauline doctrine.

I believe that the New Testament has been tampered with over time.
Click to expand...
What leads you to believe the NT has been tampered with? How much do you know about Greek and the ancient NT manuscripts?
 
p_rehbein

p_rehbein

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#14
Sep 4, 2013
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#14
Oldhermit...........mayhaps you could start with the often stated "a shadow of things to come?"

I would love to read those discussions

:)
 
oldhermit

oldhermit

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#15
Jul 28, 2012
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#15
p_rehbein said:
Oldhermit...........mayhaps you could start with the often stated "a shadow of things to come?"

I would love to read those discussions

:)
Click to expand...
As would I, but first, the integrity of scripture must be established or there is no baseline upon which to build.
 
J

JUSTNE1

Guest
#16
#16
I know quite a lot, i know that hebrew only has around 36,000 words and that vowels are not indicated in manuscripts. I know that it could be "Rope or "Camel through the eye of a needle and "The house of Simon the Leper or Pot maker".

When I am looking into scripture the "pulpit commentary" includes the ancient texts, variations etc.

There are 170-180000 words in a English version Bible and Scholars say they are sure of 7\8 or 87.5%. This means over 20,000 word variables. Translations of Translations are never 100% even in linguistics as literal translations would make little sense.

Even president Kennedy nearly called himself a doughnut by saying "ich am eine Berliner" which some think should have ommited the "eine"

Baptist teaching lacks spiritual discernment because of this very rigid stance.
 
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Blain

Blain

The Word Weaver
#17
Aug 28, 2012
19,211
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#17
JUSTNE1 said:
My point is that if prophecies have multiple meanings then even someone like myself could mould any scriptural reference into any doctrine I decide to believe.

God is not the author of confusion

So why would he make prophecies that Connot be perfectly understood and interpreted.

To say after the event is a bit weak.

I could prophecy that "there will be clouds that cover the earth, people will talk evil of neighbours, famine will abound"

Then the news comes on TV and there are floods caused by storms which have ruined crops and people are fighting looting supplies.

And I say there you go!

No, I have just used a common occurrence and moulded it to fit what I like.

God does not need to do this kind of thing.
Click to expand...
Believe it or not there are no contradictions in the bible we just perceive it that way, there is a reason why there are so many different views and interpretations for each scripture in the bible, there are many interpretations but only one true interpretation. To be able to read and understand the bible we first have know God very well his character his traits his patterns in doing things, many ppl read the OT and see God as a God of wrath and judgement because they don't know him well, apart from that there is also the fact that in order to read it and fully understand it as God wrote it we need a new eyes to see because our eyes do not perceive the things of God and our minds do not understand his ways.

The bible is like an onion or the earths crust it has many layers which is why one can read it a thousand time and still learn something new. If we do not read the bible with God's eyes and his holy spirit then we will get what you are struggling with, true many claim to read and receive revelation from the holy spirit but the fruit of such claims is thousands of different views and beliefs and interpretations hundreds of different denominations within Christianity and ppl butting heads and going into heated and often times pointless debates.

Even I admit that I can read the bible but I don't really see, i can assure you there are many scriptures that I have read and yet got the wrong interpretation from it and so I don't read the word carelessly. The bible is not simply a book or a written document of many wise and insightful scriptures it is God's heart, when you hold the bible in your hands you are holding the very heart of God and yet his heart is often times mistreated being used to attack others being used to fit our own beliefs and views and also is a great dust collector. One thing I desire is to have the right eyes to search and read and understand God's heart
 
oldhermit

oldhermit

Senior Member
#18
Jul 28, 2012
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#18
JUSTNE1 said:
I know quite a lot, i know that hebrew only has around 36,000 words and that vowels are not indicated in manuscripts. I know that it could be "Rope or "Camel through the eye of a needle and "The house of Simon the Leper or Pot maker".

When I am looking into scripture the "pulpit commentary" includes the ancient texts, variations etc.

There are 170-180000 words in a English version Bible and Scholars say they are sure of 7\8 or 87.5%. This means over 20,000 word variables. Translations of Translations are never 100% even in linguistics as literal translations would make little sense.

Even president Kennedy nearly called himself a doughnut by saying "ich am eine Berliner" which some think should have ommited the "eine"

Baptist teaching lacks spiritual discernment because is the very rigid stance.
Click to expand...
I do not know anything about the Hebrew language so when it come things of a grammatical nature I must rely on the scholarship of others in that area. Greek however is another matter. I have some measure of capabilities in the language and am able to use the tool of the language rather well. You are right. There are indeed some variations even between the ancient manuscripts themselves but the variants we see are more often than not of little consequence to the overall meaning of the text.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#19
#19
p_rehbein said:
Oldhermit...........mayhaps you could start with the often stated "a shadow of things to come?"

I would love to read those discussions

:)
Click to expand...
to start with, a shadow is not prophesy, it is something used to teach a principle. ie baptism teaches a principle of being cleansed, which is a shadow of HS baptism.

The priestly sacrifices were shadows. it taught what must be done for the forgiveness and redemption of sin, and led to Christ.

so if your trying to use shadows to interpret prophesy, you are already in danger.
 
J

JUSTNE1

Guest
#20
#20
You are right that most Scholars say that there is little consequence.

Well I disagree. I want Truth.That is why I take time to look at the variations. The Bible takes work!! Truth is Love and I cannot Love adequately without Truth.

I have had to look up dozens of scripture where "unsure of the Hebrew meaning" appears in the margin of my Bible.

Well if unsure then don't guess!!! Its Gods word..Be Sure!!
 
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