Forgive Others or, You'll Go to Hell! (false doctrine)

[SeaBass]

But Abraham did works AFTER he believed God. It was initially his faith that made him counted as righteous before God. His works were the consequence, and they made him accounted as righteous BEFORE MEN (James 2.18).

Thus Abraham did not work in order to be accounted as righteous before God.

In the same way the true believer is saved by God's unmerited love and favour through faith, not of works (Eph 2.8-9) but this RESULTS in him being created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works (Eph 2.10).

As usual Seabass you have got it wrong. Back to the drawing board.

Abraham's faith included works Heb 11:8,17 and by those works he was justified, not justified by faith only.

 

[valiant]

Does anyone actually agree with the OP's post? Just curious.

If you mean do we agree that Christ's words concerning forgiveness are not referring to a saved person becoming unsaved, then yes we do. but the danger with such a post is that it can give the wrong impression.. A truly saved person will never be complacent about sin, unless he is in a backslidden state. But that is a temporary state from which Christ PROMISES to bring him back.

 

[SeaBass]

But the people who were to pray this were ALREADY SAVED. They were chosen in Christ and had the promise that not one of them would be lost.

And as usual your logic is haywire. They were already 'washed, sanctified and justified'. Thus the sins they were praying about were their daily sins which needed to be cleansed as well. As Jesus said, 'those who are bathed NEED ONLY TO WASH THEIR FEET. And Jesus' point, made to DISCIPLES, was that they could not expect a Father's forgiveness (not a Judge's forgiveness) unless they behave like their Father. It was not a question of salvation, but of close relationship.

Their sins would not be forgiven by God if they did not forgive others of their sins. So if they did not forgive others they would be saved anyway while their sins are unforgiven, unwashed? No.

 

[SeaBass]

That it is a wicked false doctrine to make salvation contingent upon man? Hard not to agree with that principal.

That the goodness of God and the mercy of His grace changes the heart of stone into a heart that can be touched with tenderness? Hard not to agree with that principal.

Because we as believers are forgiven we are able to forgive others. Forgiveness toward others is a fruit of the Holy Spirit in our hearts.

God forgave our sins so we are saved. Because we are saved we forgive others. As we mature in the faith we are more inclined to forgive others without reservation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The verse at hand makes salvation>forgiveness contingent upon man forgiving the sins of others.

 

[valiant]

Abraham's faith included works Heb 11:8,17 and by those works he was justified, not justified by faith only.

Abraham's faith PRECEDED his works. He believed first, His works were a consequence of his faith. You are playing with words. You are twisting faith and making it mean something else.

The whole of Hebrews 11 is about people who first believed, and then as a CONSEQUENCE of believing, revealed their belief by their lives. By their fruits they were known AMONG MEN.

 

[notuptome]

Non-response avoiding the issue I raised.

Avoiding foolishness.

Proverbs 1:20 ¶ Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:
21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,
22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[valiant]

The verse at hand makes salvation>forgiveness contingent upon man forgiving the sins of others.

Can't you ever get anything right? Or does your heresy simply blind you to the truth?. The words were spoken to those who had ALREADY been saved, and who had Christ's guaranteed promise that He would rise them up at the Last Day. They are NOT about their salvation, but about their daily forgiveness.

It spoke of a working out of their salvation because of God's work within them.

 

[valiant]

Their sins would not be forgiven by God if they did not forgive others of their sins. So if they did not forgive others they would be saved anyway while their sins are unforgiven, unwashed? No.

They were ALREADY saved. They had been washed, sanctified and justified. In Jesus words 'they were bathed fully'.What could not be forgiven if they were in an unforgiving state was their DAILY sins. They could not lose their salvation, but they could lose their fellowship with God. Thus they had to daily 'wash their feet'.

 

[SeaBass]

They were ALREADY saved. They had been washed, sanctified and justified. In Jesus words 'they were bathed fully'.What could not be forgiven if they were in an unforgiving state was their DAILY sins. They could not lose their salvation, but they could lose their fellowship with God. Thus they had to daily 'wash their feet'.

Those ALREADY saved can become lost if they do not forgive others of their sins.

Having sins unforgiven by God = lost.

Mt 6:14,15
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Jesus used the conditional word "if" making salvation (having sins forgiven) CONDITIONAL and not unconditional as eternal security falsely claims.

 

[SeaBass]

Avoiding foolishness.

Proverbs 1:20 ¶ Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:
21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,
22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You are still avoiding the issue if a Christian can be saved while not having his sins forgiven/washed then there was no purpose in Christ dying so sins could be forgiven/washed away.

 

[SeaBass]

Abraham's faith PRECEDED his works. He believed first, His works were a consequence of his faith. You are playing with words. You are twisting faith and making it mean something else.

The whole of Hebrews 11 is about people who first believed, and then as a CONSEQUENCE of believing, revealed their belief by their lives. By their fruits they were known AMONG MEN.

Heb 11:8
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

His faith included obeying,. his faith included the work of moving. Faith without works he would have done nothing and stayed where he was at without doing the work of moving. Yet it was by his faithful works he was justified and not by faith only.
Heb 11 is about those that had a faithful obedience for not a word is said that any of them were justified by faith only then did works.


Heb 11:17
By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our fatherjustified by works,(WHEN was he justified?) when he had offered Isaac his son (an obedient work) upon the altar?

 

[Jason0047]

How can someone align such a doctrine with new covenant grace? How can your stubbornness to forgive others make void the blood of Jesus Christ? How powerful is your heart! As if your lack of forgiveness towards others puts a dam up, stopping the blood of Christ from washing over you. How self-righteous to think that your salvation is dependent upon your goodness, and your generosity to forgive those that have wronged you (in whatever small way).

People will say that Jesus said that if we don't forgive others, then our heavenly Father won't forgive us and this is true that he spoke such words. However, he said this pre-cross or before sacrificing himself on the cross and then resurrecting on the third day. So you see, you must acknowledge there was a changing of covenants taking place. From the old into the new, from self-righteousness to imputed righteousness (grace).

You will notice that in the OT Law, there were many forms of doing something in order to receive something. Blessings for obedience and curses for disobedience. Do instead of done (finished). Right? So if you don't forgive someone (the do) then you won't be forgiven (the curse). But if you do forgive (the do) you will be forgiven (the blessing). But what do we say of the verses that go contrary to these pre-cross words of Jesus? What do we say to His grace that says done, instead of do?

Ephesians 4:32King James Version (KJV)

32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

"What is this?", you say. You forgive others because "God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you." You say, "Wait, what? I am forgiven and therefore I forgive others? But don't I have to forgive in order to be forgiven?" Do you see the change in covenants taking place? From a place of do, to a place of done, by grace. Here is another verse to make the point all the clearer.

Colossians 3:13King James Version (KJV)
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

Do you see it? He forgave you. Its done. You don't need to forgive in order to receive forgiveness because Christ has already forgiven you. Its done. You forgive because of this and a number of other reasons. You are coming from a place of forgiveness, Jesus is your example. Forgive as He forgives. Love, as he loves. You are forgiven.

This doctrine of forgiving in order to be forgiven makes the Gospel of Grace into a gospel of self-righteousness. It makes it your responsibility to save yourself, when Jesus is the Author and Finisher of your faith. The doctrine undermines the finished work of the cross done by Jesus Christ. If we had to forgive in order to be forgiven we would not be saved by Jesus but by our own ability and willingness to forgive. We would be saving ourselves, as if Jesus has passed us the baton and said the rest is up to us. No, the rest is where we started in Christ. In His rest. In His grace, better said, in Him. We finish where we started, and that is by faith in Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 6:11King James Version (KJV)

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

That YOU are!

No, this is called taking the Bible out of context. You cannot read one verse and focus a laser beam on just those passages you prefer seeing from an askewed point of view. All Scripture must be looked at in balance to other verses. Matthew 6:15 says if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven by the Father. Jesus' words have not changed. For Paul said if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

 

[valiant]

Those ALREADY saved can become lost if they do not forgive others of their sins.

Having sins unforgiven by God = lost.

Mt 6:14,15
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Jesus used the conditional word "if" making salvation (having sins forgiven) CONDITIONAL and not unconditional as eternal security falsely claims.

Those words have nothing to do with salvation. Show me where Jesus mentions salvation. The 'if' had nothing to do with salvation. The 'if' was in respect of daily sins such as we all commit daily. It was spoken to those already saved with an everlasting salvation.

No one who has been truly saved can be lost. Otherwise Christ would have failed in His work and broken His promises. 'This is the Father's will Who sent Me, that of all whom He has given me I should lose NOTHING, but should raise him up at th Last Day'.

Certainly your religion offers nothing certain. But the Gospel of Jesus Christ guarantees certainty.

 

[valiant]

You are still avoiding the issue if a Christian can be saved while not having his sins forgiven/washed then there was no purpose in Christ dying so sins could be forgiven/washed away.

Don't you think that is rather a silly thing to say? No one has ever doubted that a Christian must be washed and made clean, and accounted as righteous by God, in order to be saved. But once that is done he is safe in the arms of the Savior from which there is no escape. That is where you and Campbell make your great mistake. Because you are not saved you do not understand salvation.

 

[sassylady]

I have been hearing several preachers on tv saying if you don't forgive you will go to hell. I have not felt comfortable with that. I would be concerned if you are holding grudges with many people and refusing to forgive. But if you are struggling to forgive because you know you should I would not think your salvation would be affected by that. None of us will have done everything perfect up to the last minute of our lives.

 

[valiant]

Heb 11:8
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

yes his faith RESULTED in him obeying. Had he not had faith he would not have obeyed. Thank you for confirming what I have said.

His faith included obeying,.

No it did not. It RESULTED in him obeying. Believe first, act afterwards.

his faith included the work of moving.

what an illogical thing to say. faith always precedes action, the action merely indicates what kind of faith it is.

Faith without works he would have done nothing and stayed where he was at without doing the work of moving.

But there is no such thing as 'faith without works'. Such a faith is not real faith. It is dead. Real Faith always RESULTS in works. But in the case of the Gospel salvation as a consequence of God's grace, received through faith must have taken place FIRST. It is the work of Christ, not of man. As we look to Him in faith (without doing anything else) He forgives us and sanctifies us once for all. He washes us clean and counts us as righteous. From then on we are saved once for all. He then renews us within by His Spirit, and it is that which results in our good works.

Yet it was by his faithful works he was justified and not by faith only.

Not in God's eyes. God saw his true faith, and sees our true faith, and that is enough. In response to it He washes us, accounts us as righteous, and seals us until the Day of Redemption. It is BEFORE MEN that our works justify us. THAT was what James was talking about.

Heb 11 is about those that had a

faithful obedience for not a word is said that any of them were justified by faith only then did works.

But you see this is always where you go wrong. You IGNORE the context. You have no broad view of the teaching concerning salvation. You cling to verses out of context. You are a blind leader of the blind. ACTUALLY Hebrews 11 is about faith that REULTS in obedience. FIRST they must believe that God is and that He is rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. And it was as a consequence of this that they proved faithful. It is clearly stated.

Heb 11:17

By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

What CAUSED him to offer up Isaac? God spoke to him and he believed God. It underlines that fact. HE HAD RECEIVED THE PROMISES AND BELIEVED THEM. And the CONSEQUENCE was that he offered up Isaac. You see it is always the same. A man truly believes, and CONSEQUENTLY he acts.

James 2:21

Was not Abraham our fatherjustified by works,(WHEN was he justified?) when he had offered Isaac his son (an obedient work) upon the altar?

And before whom was he justified? BEFORE MEN (James 2.18 - 'by my works I will show you my faith' - that is spoken to men NOT GOD. God did not need to see any works in order to count Abraham as righteous.

 

[valiant]

No, this is called taking the Bible out of context. You cannot read one verse and focus a laser beam on just those passages you prefer seeing from an askewed point of view. All Scripture must be looked at in balance to other verses. Matthew 6:15 says if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven by the Father. Jesus' words have not changed. For Paul said if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

LOL you are in no position to criticise those who take verses out of context. YOU ARE TAKING THESE WORDS OUT OF CONTEXT. Jesus was talking to people who were eternally saved and pointing out that for their daily sins to be forgiven they must be forgiving towards others. It says nothing about their salvation. God was their Heavenly Father. And He is only that for the saved.

 

[notuptome]

You are still avoiding the issue if a Christian can be saved while not having his sins forgiven/washed then there was no purpose in Christ dying so sins could be forgiven/washed away.

For those honest enough to receive it, saved and forgiven for sins are the same thing. Saved from past sins, saved from present sins and saved from future sins. It is a continuous saving because of the blood of Christ. Saved from the penalty of sin and promised to be saved from the presence of sin in eternity.

You love to pose hypotheticals that shock rational minds with thoughts so you may create strife to promote inane doctrines. It stems from the dumb philosophy that asks can God make a rock too big for even Him to lift?

Nothing to edify only blanket condemnations on matters that are none of your business to begin with.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Jason0047]

LOL you are in no position to criticise those who take verses out of context. YOU ARE TAKING THESE WORDS OUT OF CONTEXT. Jesus was talking to people who were eternally saved and pointing out that for their daily sins to be forgiven they must be forgiving towards others. It says nothing about their salvation. God was their Heavenly Father. And He is only that for the saved.

Do a study on forgiveness in the Bible. It is always tied to salvation. For there is no example in the Scriptures were somebody was not forgiven by God and yet they were still saved.

 

[KennethC]

LOL you are in no position to criticise those who take verses out of context. YOU ARE TAKING THESE WORDS OUT OF CONTEXT. Jesus was talking to people who were eternally saved and pointing out that for their daily sins to be forgiven they must be forgiving towards others. It says nothing about their salvation. God was their Heavenly Father. And He is only that for the saved.

It is simple to show;

Point 1) To be unforgiving to others is a form of hatred !!!

Point 2) 1 John 3:15 says that those who have hatred toward others do not have eternal life abiding in them !!!