Forgive Others or, You'll Go to Hell! (false doctrine)

[mwc68]

I would always hesitate to suggest that any doctrine gives us the right to override the teaching of Jesus. When Jesus said, 'if you do not forgive men their trespasses neither will your Heavenly Father God forgive you your trespasses' He meant it to be taken seriously.

However it is not salvation which is at stake but personal communion and a right relationship with God. Jesus point was that we cannot come for daily forgiveness in a state of being unforgiving. The two are incompatible.

We can compare how He said, 'if you bring your gift to the altar, and then remember that your brother has something against you, first go and be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift'.

No arguments about covenants can remove our obligations under these words.

oh man! The end is near! I have agreed with Valiant! LOL

 

[valiant]

Do a study on forgiveness in the Bible. It is always tied to salvation. For there is no example in the Scriptures were somebody was not forgiven by God and yet they were still saved.

what you mean is that YOU always tie it to salvation. Clearly salvation includes forgiveness. But daily forgiveness is another question. Or do you have to be saved daily? LOL

Oh I forgot of course, YOU never sin. You just do things that everyone else calls sin.

 

[valiant]

It is simple to show;

Point 1) To be unforgiving to others is a form of hatred !!!

Point 2) 1 John 3:15 says that those who have hatred toward others do not have eternal life abiding in them !!!

number 1 is incorrect, so number 2 does not apply.

 

[BenFTW]

I'm going to list some assumptions and statements that were made after reading the OP and then address them.

1. "You're saying we don't have to forgive."

That is not what I said. I said our forgiveness is not dependent upon our forgiving of others, but rather is dependent upon Jesus Christ and His finished work. We ought to forgive, not by obligation (or else we go to Hell) but because we are forgiven and know the liberty that forgiveness brings. Jesus is our example, since we are forgiven we ought to forgive as Christ has forgiven us. This is not mandatory, but is a fruit of who we now are in Him.

2. This is a wicked doctrine and is dangerous promoting a life style of sin.

False assumption, grace does not lead to sin for by grace sin does not dominate us. We aren't under law. Grace actually teaches us to deny ungodliness, it teaches us! When you realize that your future sins are forgiven it does not go through your mind as, "What can I get away with!?" On the contrary, it frees you from the condemnation and guilt and makes you realize it isn't your master. It holds no weight in your eternal destination and therefore, you stop focusing on sin and get your eyes on Jesus, beholding Him and being changed. We don't need a license to sin, we already had that when we were in the world by free will. We just didn't like the consequence of the sin. Now, there is no eternal consequence, but it still affects your livelihood and grieves the Holy Spirit (because He cares about you).

3. You are overriding the teachings of Jesus.

I only need to say, "Rightly divide the Word." In doing so, we come to the conclusion that not everything Jesus said was directed to us, but the people who he was speaking to and under old covenant Law. He said things that apply to a person under Law but not under grace. A person under grace need not pull out their eye or cut off their arm because we have grace, but a person under Law was called to perfection by rules and regulations. They literally had to be perfect and Jesus was emphasizing that with such an extreme example. Of course people will say, "Jesus was only kidding." No, he was quite serious of what the Law required of man.

4. I still think we should forgive.

No where in the OP does it state we ought to not forgive others, it states that we forgive because we are forgiven. We come from a place of forgiveness having felt its goodness, and as Christ as our example, we walk it out. There are many benefits to forgiveness, and it is healthy compared to holding grudges that eat you from within hardening your heart.

I think thats all for now guys, and to the person who asked if anyone agrees with the OP, I would hope so. I gave verses that point to the truth of the matter. Our forgiveness lies not within our own ability but in Jesus Christ. That is grace, and not a self-righteous gospel mimicking religions of the world to work their way to Nirvana. No, we rest in Jesus.

 

[ember]

I still think we should forgive.

No where in the OP does it state we ought to not forgive others, it states that we forgive because we are forgiven. We come from a place of forgiveness having felt its goodness, and as Christ as our example, we walk it out. There are many benefits to forgiveness, and it is healthy compared to holding grudges that eat you from within hardening your heart.

I think thats all for now guys, and to the person who asked if anyone agrees with the OP, I would hope so. I gave verses that point to the truth of the matter. Our forgiveness lies not within our own ability but in Jesus Christ. That is grace, and not a self-righteous gospel mimicking religions of the world to work their way to Nirvana. No, we rest in Jesus.

I agree with this

Thanks

Mind you, I have never heard the 'if you don't forgive you go to hell' sermon...

2. This is a wicked doctrine and is dangerous promoting a life style of sin.

False assumption, grace does not lead to sin for by grace sin does not dominate us. We aren't under law. Grace actually teaches us to deny ungodliness, it teaches us! When you realize that your future sins are forgiven it does not go through your mind as, "What can I get away with!?" On the contrary, it frees you from the condemnation and guilt and makes you realize it isn't your master. It holds no weight in your eternal destination and therefore, you stop focusing on sin and get your eyes on Jesus, beholding Him and being changed. We don't need a license to sin, we already had that when we were in the world by free will. We just didn't like the consequence of the sin. Now, there is no eternal consequence, but it still affects your livelihood and grieves the Holy Spirit (because He cares about you).

the sinless crowd just does not understand this...no secret I'm sure

 

[ember]

Originally Posted by KennethC

It is simple to show;

Point 1) To be unforgiving to others is a form of hatred !!!


Point 2) 1 John 3:15 says that those who have hatred toward others do not have eternal life abiding in them !!!

yeah not really

many people...believers or otherwise...don't want to forgive because they don't want to let the hurt back in...they create a false boundary by wrapping hurt around themself like armor

I think we have to get used to the idea that forgivness does not mean the one who wronged or hurt you will ever acknowledge what they did

forgivness, like God's forgiveness to us, is unconditional

I'm not saying we run up and embrace the one who did whatever...and forgiveness can often be a process

well, alot can be said, but I don't think it helps to throw Bible verses like darts....I'm pretty sure that is not what the scriptures are for

 

[BenFTW]

I agree with this

Thanks

Mind you, I have never heard the 'if you don't forgive you go to hell' sermon...



the sinless crowd just does not understand this...no secret I'm sure

Its far more subtle, they just say the Lord won't forgive you. Hell was used for sensationalism, to get people to read the thread. lol I'm sure you've heard people speak of forgiving others lest the Lord not forgive you your trespasses.

 

[Jason0047]

what you mean is that YOU always tie it to salvation. Clearly salvation includes forgiveness. But daily forgiveness is another question. Or do you have to be saved daily? LOL

Oh I forgot of course, YOU never sin. You just do things that everyone else calls sin.

No. Do the study and you will see that forgiveness is tied to salvation. There is no truth taught in the Scrptures or person in the Bible that teaches us that we cannot forgive someone and yet also be saved or forgiven ourselves. If there was, you actually have to find it to actually prove you are even remotely correct.

 

[Jason0047]

As for Jesus' teachings leading up to His death upon the cross (Which officially began the New Testament): Well, Jesus was not teaching primarily Old Covenant before the cross but he was primarily teaching New Covenant. Hence, why the gospels are in the New Testament and not the Old Testament section in your Bible. Yes, technically the period of time during Christ's ministry was still the Old Covenant still, but Jesus was already making big changes to the Old Covenant (even before the cross). For Christ was preparing people for the New Testament with His teachings. For ask yourself the next time you read the gospels: Did Jesus primarily teach Old Testament or New Testament? For he said turn the other cheek instead of an eye for an eye. Jesus also said it is hard for a rich-man to enter the Kingdom of God whereas, the Lord blessed Solomon with great wealth in the Old Covenant. Jesus did not cast stones and judge the woman caught in the act of adultery but he had mercy on her. But the key difference here is that he told the woman caught in the act of adultery to sin no more, though.

But how can we know for sure that are to obey Jesus's words? Because of 1 Timothy 6:3-4 and John 12:48. Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and knows nothing. John 12:48 says if we reject the words of Jesus, then those very words will judge us on the last day.

 

[Jason0047]

Also, as mentioned before, unforgiveness is a form of hatred. But the New Testament Scriptures AFTER Christ's death teach that if you hate your brother you are a murderer and you have no eternal life abiding in you (1 John 3:15).

 

[slave]

Jesus tells me in Luke 9:26 that if I am ashamed of the Word and its teachings He will be ashamed of me. What does His Word say of forgiveness? Matt. 6:14-15 which is absolute and Matt. 18 21-22 which is non-limited becomes the point here . This is another issue as well ..."If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, This putting this issue to the curb is avoiding His teachings and His Character, it is avoiding confession.. If we are found in Him we will be found being like Christ.Put aside for the moment your gate ticket into Heavens doors...what will you do once passing the entry? Will you not want to begin in earnest the principles found in His Word? And from that become the Word yourself as Christ has been? You did not deny it's value --Forgiveness, why then debate your ultimate conclusion on the subject whether before the entry or just after? Eventually you will need to apply it right?.......God never takes one thing of Scripture out of balance with the rest of His Words. Gods will is obvious in the area of Forgiveness and how we need to apply it to others in life.

 

[EdisonTrent]

Forgive not for these reasons
Spiritual,family,friends,Neighbors
forgive because your heart wants too needs too
even A mustard seed size effort is enough to start with

 

[KennethC]

yeah not really

many people...believers or otherwise...don't want to forgive because they don't want to let the hurt back in...they create a false boundary by wrapping hurt around themself like armor

I think we have to get used to the idea that forgivness does not mean the one who wronged or hurt you will ever acknowledge what they did

forgivness, like God's forgiveness to us, is unconditional

I'm not saying we run up and embrace the one who did whatever...and forgiveness can often be a process

well, alot can be said, but I don't think it helps to throw Bible verses like darts....I'm pretty sure that is not what the scriptures are for

Well you would be kind of wrong there as the bible by Apostle Paul shows we are to use the scriptures to reprove and rebuke others with the truth in them.

To not forgive another person is showing a unloving nature, and the bible makes it clear those who have eternal life abiding in them will walk in love. They will not be uncaring, unloving, show hatred, and do wrong toward others.....

 

[KennethC]

number 1 is incorrect, so number 2 does not apply.

No it is not incorrect as if you choose to not forgive a person then you are coming from an unloving thought process toward them.
Jesus and Paul both clearly say forgiving others is a must if you want to be forgiven of your sins.

You can not get eternal life if you do not receive remission of your sins by the Lord Jesus, and that is what being forgiven, having them covered, and cleansed by His blood means. No remission = No salvation

 

[phil112]

How can someone align such a doctrine with new covenant grace? How can your stubbornness to forgive others make void the blood of Jesus Christ? ..........................

Replying to you would be easier if you would let us know how much of the bible, how much of Christ's teachings, you believe to be a lie. You know good and well Christ said otherwise.

 

[Jason0047]

Then there is also Paul's teaching on forgiveness in 2 Corinthians 2:7-11, as well (Which supports Christ's teaching on how we are supposed to forgive, too).

"So that instead you ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with too much sorrow. Therefore I beseech you that you would confirm your love toward him. For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether you be obedient in all things. To whom you forgive anything, I forgive also: for if I forgave anything, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes I forgave it in the person of Christ; Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices."

 

[ladylynn]

Does anyone actually agree with the OP's post? Just curious.

Yes, 100% because it is Biblical 100%. Before I understood grace, I refused this teaching too.

Just look at Numbers 23:21 God did not say there was no sin or iniquity in His people, He said He did not see it. Because of the blood of bulls and goats, which they offered up to the Lord DAILY.

God saw the blood., not the sin. The sin was covered. Today, because of the blood of the perfect Lamb of God He sees all our sins punished in the body of Jesus Christ. How much more true it is for us today who are washed clean forever by the blood of Jesus, the spotless Lamb of God.

Under the old covenant the Israelites enjoyed a temporal covering through the animal sacrifices, but for us, the atonement and payment for all our sins by Jesus Christ is eternal.

So God does not observe sin and iniquity in those who have Jesus. God sees us as righteous, forgiven, favored and blessed.,accepted in the beloved. All because of the cross of Jesus.
Many new covenant believers still live under the old covenant of the law. It's hard for us humans to fathom the truth of grace.

 

[Jason0047]

No. That would not be true. The Bible has to be read with a balanced approach. 1 Timothy 6:3-4 says if any man teaches contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and they know nothing. So.... if anyone is teaching contrary to Jesus's words in Matthew 6:15 in the fact that it says you must forgive in order to be forgiven then they are proud and they know nothing according to Paul.

 

[know1]

People will say that Jesus said that if we don't forgive others, then our heavenly Father won't forgive us and this is true that he spoke such words. However, he said this pre-cross or before sacrificing himself on the cross and then resurrecting on the third day. So you see, you must acknowledge there was a changing of covenants taking place. From the old into the new, from self-righteousness to imputed righteousness (grace).


Colossians 3:13King James Version (KJV)
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

Do you see it? He forgave you. Its done. You don't need to forgive in order to receive forgiveness because Christ has already forgiven you. Its done. You forgive because of this and a number of other reasons. You are coming from a place of forgiveness, Jesus is your example. Forgive as He forgives. Love, as he loves. You are forgiven.

This doctrine of forgiving in order to be forgiven makes the Gospel of Grace into a gospel of self-righteousness. It makes it your responsibility to save yourself, when Jesus is the Author and Finisher of your faith. The doctrine undermines the finished work of the cross done by Jesus Christ. If we had to forgive in order to be forgiven we would not be saved by Jesus but by our own ability and willingness to forgive. We would be saving ourselves, as if Jesus has passed us the baton and said the rest is up to us. No, the rest is where we started in Christ. In His rest. In His grace, better said, in Him. We finish where we started, and that is by faith in Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 6:11King James Version (KJV)

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

That YOU are!

God is not your Father until you are His child.
He was speaking to the new covenant believers.
Under the old covenant, the people of Israel were not called sons of God, but servants.
If all our sins have been covered as you say, past, present, and future, then why are we, the children of God, told to confess our sins so that we can be forgiven our sins and to cleanse us of all unrighteousness? If we are already forgiven and cleanse, what need have we of repentance?
That has nothing to do with self-righteousness, it has to do with repentance for forgiveness for the past and present sins so we may be forgiven of them by God. That is when the blood of Jesus washes, sanctifies, and justifies us.

 

[vic1980]

How can someone align such a doctrine with new covenant grace? How can your stubbornness to forgive others make void the blood of Jesus Christ? How powerful is your heart! As if your lack of forgiveness towards others puts a dam up, stopping the blood of Christ from washing over you. How self-righteous to think that your salvation is dependent upon your goodness, and your generosity to forgive those that have wronged you (in whatever small way).

People will say that Jesus said that if we don't forgive others, then our heavenly Father won't forgive us and this is true that he spoke such words. However, he said this pre-cross or before sacrificing himself on the cross and then resurrecting on the third day. So you see, you must acknowledge there was a changing of covenants taking place. From the old into the new, from self-righteousness to imputed righteousness (grace).

You will notice that in the OT Law, there were many forms of doing something in order to receive something. Blessings for obedience and curses for disobedience. Do instead of done (finished). Right? So if you don't forgive someone (the do) then you won't be forgiven (the curse). But if you do forgive (the do) you will be forgiven (the blessing). But what do we say of the verses that go contrary to these pre-cross words of Jesus? What do we say to His grace that says done, instead of do?

Ephesians 4:32King James Version (KJV)

32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

"What is this?", you say. You forgive others because "God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you." You say, "Wait, what? I am forgiven and therefore I forgive others? But don't I have to forgive in order to be forgiven?" Do you see the change in covenants taking place? From a place of do, to a place of done, by grace. Here is another verse to make the point all the clearer.

Colossians 3:13King James Version (KJV)
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

Do you see it? He forgave you. Its done. You don't need to forgive in order to receive forgiveness because Christ has already forgiven you. Its done. You forgive because of this and a number of other reasons. You are coming from a place of forgiveness, Jesus is your example. Forgive as He forgives. Love, as he loves. You are forgiven.

This doctrine of forgiving in order to be forgiven makes the Gospel of Grace into a gospel of self-righteousness. It makes it your responsibility to save yourself, when Jesus is the Author and Finisher of your faith. The doctrine undermines the finished work of the cross done by Jesus Christ. If we had to forgive in order to be forgiven we would not be saved by Jesus but by our own ability and willingness to forgive. We would be saving ourselves, as if Jesus has passed us the baton and said the rest is up to us. No, the rest is where we started in Christ. In His rest. In His grace, better said, in Him. We finish where we started, and that is by faith in Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 6:11King James Version (KJV)

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

That YOU are!

A warning against favoritism

James 2:12-13 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

Hmmm... The following up above states Judgement.

If we don't forgives others were is thee mercy in our Heart that God has establish by the new man we are in Christ ?

Can i say i Abide in Christ and not forgive be merciless to another , and walk away without examining what Christ did for me, He was merciful to me while i was yet a sinner and forgave me, just as He done for you. Scripture clear on if we have the Light in us how we would be living in this world. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Love must be without hypocrisy.

Ephesians 4:32 Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

Anyone who claims to walk with Christ Jesus, as does not forgive need to understand that they do not Love as He commanded.

And True Christian are clearly aware, of what occurs to those who do not Love and Forgive as He did.


Shalom