Forgive Others or, You'll Go to Hell! (false doctrine)

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BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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#1
How can someone align such a doctrine with new covenant grace? How can your stubbornness to forgive others make void the blood of Jesus Christ? How powerful is your heart! As if your lack of forgiveness towards others puts a dam up, stopping the blood of Christ from washing over you. How self-righteous to think that your salvation is dependent upon your goodness, and your generosity to forgive those that have wronged you (in whatever small way).

People will say that Jesus said that if we don't forgive others, then our heavenly Father won't forgive us and this is true that he spoke such words. However, he said this pre-cross or before sacrificing himself on the cross and then resurrecting on the third day. So you see, you must acknowledge there was a changing of covenants taking place. From the old into the new, from self-righteousness to imputed righteousness (grace).

You will notice that in the OT Law, there were many forms of doing something in order to receive something. Blessings for obedience and curses for disobedience. Do instead of done (finished). Right? So if you don't forgive someone (the do) then you won't be forgiven (the curse). But if you do forgive (the do) you will be forgiven (the blessing). But what do we say of the verses that go contrary to these pre-cross words of Jesus? What do we say to His grace that says done, instead of do?

Ephesians 4:32King James Version (KJV)

32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

"What is this?", you say. You forgive others because "God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you." You say, "Wait, what? I am forgiven and therefore I forgive others? But don't I have to forgive in order to be forgiven?" Do you see the change in covenants taking place? From a place of do, to a place of done, by grace. Here is another verse to make the point all the clearer.

Colossians 3:13King James Version (KJV)

13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

Do you see it? He forgave you. Its done. You don't need to forgive in order to receive forgiveness because Christ has already forgiven you. Its done. You forgive because of this and a number of other reasons. You are coming from a place of forgiveness, Jesus is your example. Forgive as He forgives. Love, as he loves. You are forgiven.

This doctrine of forgiving in order to be forgiven makes the Gospel of Grace into a gospel of self-righteousness. It makes it your responsibility to save yourself, when Jesus is the Author and Finisher of your faith. The doctrine undermines the finished work of the cross done by Jesus Christ. If we had to forgive in order to be forgiven we would not be saved by Jesus but by our own ability and willingness to forgive. We would be saving ourselves, as if Jesus has passed us the baton and said the rest is up to us. No, the rest is where we started in Christ. In His rest. In His grace, better said, in Him. We finish where we started, and that is by faith in Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 6:11King James Version (KJV)

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

That YOU are!
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,834
981
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#2
I suppose this unleashes a discussion on an assumed position that our sins are forgiven past, present and future. There are people that subscribe to the belief that when we accept Christ our sins are forgiven, but only our past sins. Not the present sin you have yet to repent of (also another discussion), or the sins to come. However, this perspective doesn't align with scripture that is clear that Jesus took ALL sin away and that He doesnt need to sacrifice himself again and again since the foundation of the world.

Why? Because unlike Israel having to make yearly sacrifices for sin, Christ did it once and for all. Do you see the comparison? Do you see the polarity? Like hot and cold, so it is with the old and new covenant. One of works and the other of rest. One of yearly sacrifices and the other just one. So you see, in the NT covenant of grace, we aren't just forgiven on past or present sin upon believing in Jesus, but future as well. With fresh sin there is always fresh blood to be spilled in the OT, but in the new the fresh sin is taken away by the blood of Jesus.

He need not be sacrificed again, for this new sin because its already been taken care of at the cross by His sacrifice. If Jesus' blood doesn't pay the price of future sin as well, then he would have to be sacrificed again with every new sin. However, that isn't the case because Jesus' blood isn't common like that of bulls and goats, needing to be sacrificed again and again. No. He did it once! And for all!

The Word goes on to explain to us in Hebrews 7:25 that Jesus is able to save us completely because He lives to intercede on our behalf forever, as our High Priest. The high priest would give an offering for his sins and the sins of the people and go into the Holy of Holies sprinkling blood on the mercy seat. Well, Jesus is OUR High Priest. When we sin, He is the one interceding on our behalf, pointing to His blood and finished work at the cross. He did it ONCE and for all. That means, future sins are also forgiven by the blood of Jesus Christ.

Think of it like you are being continually washed in the blood of Christ as a river, or waterfall. Your sins of scarlet are as white as snow. You are in Jesus Christ, you are the righteousness of God, in Jesus Christ because He imputes His righteousness to you. You are completely and solely dependent upon Jesus.

1 John 1:7King James Version (KJV)

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

You may be asking yourself if you're walking in the light, as if its some form of self-righteousness being spoken of. However, let me show you what Jesus said of those who would believe in Him.



John 8:12King James Version (KJV)

12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.


From Jesus' very own lips. You will not walk in the darkness but shall have the light of life, and He is that very light. Guess what? You are in Jesus, and therefore in the light. So what does that mean? His blood cleanses you, meaning that when you sin His blood washes you immediately. If you sin in the light, what happens? Do you get out of the light? Do you hop in and out? Or, do you sin IN THE LIGHT? In the light, and what happens? The blood of Christ cleanses you. What does that mean in regards to our discussion? The blood of Christ forgives us of past, present and future sin.
 
G

Gr8grace

Guest
#3
Good stuff Brother.

One thing that isn't completely clear? The OT saints were also saved by grace, they were a shadow and example of the grace and mystery revealed in the NT.

They were just as secure in their salvation as we are in ours.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#4
How can someone align such a doctrine with new covenant grace? How can your stubbornness to forgive others make void the blood of Jesus Christ? How powerful is your heart! As if your lack of forgiveness towards others puts a dam up, stopping the blood of Christ from washing over you. How self-righteous to think that your salvation is dependent upon your goodness, and your generosity to forgive those that have wronged you (in whatever small way).

People will say that Jesus said that if we don't forgive others, then our heavenly Father won't forgive us and this is true that he spoke such words. However, he said this pre-cross or before sacrificing himself on the cross and then resurrecting on the third day. So you see, you must acknowledge there was a changing of covenants taking place. From the old into the new, from self-righteousness to imputed righteousness (grace).

You will notice that in the OT Law, there were many forms of doing something in order to receive something. Blessings for obedience and curses for disobedience. Do instead of done (finished). Right? So if you don't forgive someone (the do) then you won't be forgiven (the curse). But if you do forgive (the do) you will be forgiven (the blessing). But what do we say of the verses that go contrary to these pre-cross words of Jesus? What do we say to His grace that says done, instead of do?

Ephesians 4:32King James Version (KJV)

32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

"What is this?", you say. You forgive others because "God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you." You say, "Wait, what? I am forgiven and therefore I forgive others? But don't I have to forgive in order to be forgiven?" Do you see the change in covenants taking place? From a place of do, to a place of done, by grace. Here is another verse to make the point all the clearer.

Colossians 3:13King James Version (KJV)

13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

Do you see it? He forgave you. Its done. You don't need to forgive in order to receive forgiveness because Christ has already forgiven you. Its done. You forgive because of this and a number of other reasons. You are coming from a place of forgiveness, Jesus is your example. Forgive as He forgives. Love, as he loves. You are forgiven.

This doctrine of forgiving in order to be forgiven makes the Gospel of Grace into a gospel of self-righteousness. It makes it your responsibility to save yourself, when Jesus is the Author and Finisher of your faith. The doctrine undermines the finished work of the cross done by Jesus Christ. If we had to forgive in order to be forgiven we would not be saved by Jesus but by our own ability and willingness to forgive. We would be saving ourselves, as if Jesus has passed us the baton and said the rest is up to us. No, the rest is where we started in Christ. In His rest. In His grace, better said, in Him. We finish where we started, and that is by faith in Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 6:11King James Version (KJV)

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

That YOU are!
I would always hesitate to suggest that any doctrine gives us the right to override the teaching of Jesus. When Jesus said, 'if you do not forgive men their trespasses neither will your Heavenly Father God forgive you your trespasses' He meant it to be taken seriously.

However it is not salvation which is at stake but personal communion and a right relationship with God. Jesus point was that we cannot come for daily forgiveness in a state of being unforgiving. The two are incompatible.

We can compare how He said, 'if you bring your gift to the altar, and then remember that your brother has something against you, first go and be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift'.

No arguments about covenants can remove our obligations under these words. :)
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,834
981
113
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#5
Good stuff Brother.

One thing that isn't completely clear? The OT saints were also saved by grace, they were a shadow and example of the grace and mystery revealed in the NT.

They were just as secure in their salvation as we are in ours.
For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." 4Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. 5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works: 7"Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, and whose sins have been covered. 8"Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account" (Rom. 4:3-8)

It has always been faith that saved, never works. :) Even in the OT for the saints of ole.

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into. (1 Peter 1:10–12, emphasis added)
 
Jul 25, 2013
1,329
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#6
BenFTW:

According to your understanding I can go out and shoot someone who has offended me and I'm automatically forgiven....WOW I didn't know it worked like that, thanks for setting me straight on that. I guess Jesus opening the mistery of the OT in the NT gospels was just for kicks.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,097
6,480
113
#7
I am always amused at the various sinful lifestyles people justify with ................ hey......Grace............ :)
 

emekrus

Senior Member
Jun 1, 2015
355
92
28
www.righteousfaith.wordpress.com
#8
Anybody who believes this kind of blatant scriptural aberration(falsehood) has purposely agreed to hug the devil in hell forever.

Anyone preaching this kind of gospel, is an imposter and a very wicked person. They know the truth, but trying to pervert it. They have succeeded in deluding themselves (with a seared conscience). And are all out to drag multitudes to themselves to follow suit with them.

Here is what the scripture says:

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" Revelations 21:8.

The sin of unforgiveness is as heavy as any of the sin in the above scripture.

Please for your own sake, don't give heed to this wicked machinations of the enemy in this end-time.
 
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
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#9
For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." 4Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. 5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works: 7"Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, and whose sins have been covered. 8"Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account" (Rom. 4:3-8)

It has always been faith that saved, never works. :) Even in the OT for the saints of ole.

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into. (1 Peter 1:10–12, emphasis added)
Abraham did do works (Heb 11:8,17; Gen 26:5) and was justified by those works, (James 2:21-24) so how could Abraham "worketh not" when he did do works?
 

breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
6,002
764
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Australia
#10
If you don't forgive as you have forgiven aren't you a hypocrite?
 
Dec 1, 2014
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#11
Amen, Brother! So cool..very good perspective you have on this. I Know it is hard to understand forgiving future sins, but, in CHRIST, all things are possible.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#12
If you don't forgive as you have forgiven aren't you a hypocrite?
It's another thread trying to run an "end around" the words of Christ in order to try and prove a false man-made teaching.

Mt 6:14,15 "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

If you do not forgive others of their sins then God will not forgive your sins......but according to this thread you would be saved anyway in your unforgiven, unwashed sins. If you can be saved in your unwashed, unforgiven sins, then what was the purpose of Christ coming to earth dying on the cross so that sins could be washed away, forgiven if you can be saved in those unwashed, unforgiven sins any way?
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#13
It's another thread trying to run an "end around" the words of Christ in order to try and prove a false man-made teaching.

Mt 6:14,15 "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

If you do not forgive others of their sins then God will not forgive your sins......but according to this thread you would be saved anyway in your unforgiven, unwashed sins. If you can be saved in your unwashed, unforgiven sins, then what was the purpose of Christ coming to earth dying on the cross so that sins could be washed away, forgiven if you can be saved in those unwashed, unforgiven sins any way?
Kingdom principals are for kingdom subjects. You will not comprehend apart from the Holy Spirit Who gives wisdom to all saved men liberally.

God again using the simple things to confound the wise.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
S

sealabeag

Guest
#14
Does anyone actually agree with the OP's post? Just curious.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#15
Anybody who believes this kind of blatant scriptural aberration(falsehood) has purposely agreed to hug the devil in hell forever.

Anyone preaching this kind of gospel, is an imposter and a very wicked person. They know the truth, but trying to pervert it. They have succeeded in deluding themselves (with a seared conscience). And are all out to drag multitudes to themselves to follow suit with them.

Here is what the scripture says:

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" Revelations 21:8.

The sin of unforgiveness is as heavy as any of the sin in the above scripture.

Please for your own sake, don't give heed to this wicked machinations of the enemy in this end-time.
I wonder why God forgot to mention 'not being able to forgive' How careless!!!

You know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
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#16
Abraham did do works (Heb 11:8,17; Gen 26:5) and was justified by those works, (James 2:21-24) so how could Abraham "worketh not" when he did do works?
But Abraham did works AFTER he believed God. It was initially his faith that made him counted as righteous before God. His works were the consequence, and they made him accounted as righteous BEFORE MEN (James 2.18).

Thus Abraham did not work in order to be accounted as righteous before God.

In the same way the true believer is saved by God's unmerited love and favour through faith, not of works (Eph 2.8-9) but this RESULTS in him being created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works (Eph 2.10).

As usual Seabass you have got it wrong. Back to the drawing board.
 
E

ember

Guest
#17
I believe we are instructed to forgive. I think we should take that seriously

23“Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you,24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift. Matt 5

Of course faith saves, but in that faith, doesn't obedience to what we believe testify to the fact that we actually have faith?

I mean honestly, I don't dwell in the land of the sinless and perfect, but scripture is clear about forgiveness...freely forgive as you have been forgiven

bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you. Colossians 3:13

Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you. Ephesians 4:32

How about the Lord's prayer?

And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors Matthew 6:12

Actually, forgiveness is pretty well covered and I believe, indicated that we need to forgive.

And then there is also this:

21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”22Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times. Matthew 18

Note I am not including anything about people going to hell...that could be another discussion...but I think forgiveness is more than obvious

 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#18
It's another thread trying to run an "end around" the words of Christ in order to try and prove a false man-made teaching.

Mt 6:14,15 "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

If you do not forgive others of their sins then God will not forgive your sins......but according to this thread you would be saved anyway in your unforgiven, unwashed sins. If you can be saved in your unwashed, unforgiven sins, then what was the purpose of Christ coming to earth dying on the cross so that sins could be washed away, forgiven if you can be saved in those unwashed, unforgiven sins any way?
But the people who were to pray this were ALREADY SAVED. They were chosen in Christ and had the promise that not one of them would be lost.

And as usual your logic is haywire. They were already 'washed, sanctified and justified'. Thus the sins they were praying about were their daily sins which needed to be cleansed as well. As Jesus said, 'those who are bathed NEED ONLY TO WASH THEIR FEET. And Jesus' point, made to DISCIPLES, was that they could not expect a Father's forgiveness (not a Judge's forgiveness) unless they behave like their Father. It was not a question of salvation, but of close relationship.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#19
Does anyone actually agree with the OP's post? Just curious.
That it is a wicked false doctrine to make salvation contingent upon man? Hard not to agree with that principal.

That the goodness of God and the mercy of His grace changes the heart of stone into a heart that can be touched with tenderness? Hard not to agree with that principal.

Because we as believers are forgiven we are able to forgive others. Forgiveness toward others is a fruit of the Holy Spirit in our hearts.

God forgave our sins so we are saved. Because we are saved we forgive others. As we mature in the faith we are more inclined to forgive others without reservation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
29
0
#20
Kingdom principals are for kingdom subjects. You will not comprehend apart from the Holy Spirit Who gives wisdom to all saved men liberally.

God again using the simple things to confound the wise.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Non-response avoiding the issue I raised.