What is Obedience?

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Jul 1, 2015
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#1
What is obedience?
In the body of Christ, that is, the church, it seems to me that we have a strange idea of what obedience is. Most of us attend a church building or other kind of gathering, and to some extent we do some praying, and some worship, and some study…and we enjoy fellowship together. All these things seem to be the substance of our obedience to God, and we have developed a confidence that God smiles upon us because He sees this obedience.
But what if God is not asking us to fellowship in that particular church, or to worship with those people, or to pray with them in that particular way, or even to have confidence that this form of religious works is acceptable? What would we be left with, if we had to take all that away?
I think we would be left with nothing that we could call obedience. That means we would be in a very serious position, even in a position that would cause us to ask ourselves, isn’t my obedience to God a principal requirement of service?
So, if what we are doing in all of these listed and accepted things is not obedience, wouldn’t that make it disobedience? Wouldn’t that endanger us spiritually and place us in a very problematic position before Jesus, when we finally stand before Him in that day?
To illustrate, imagine a father who has a son, and tells the son to go upstairs to the bathroom and wash his face. What would we think of the son if he instead went to the library and found the law section, and looked up whether a father has a right to tell his son to wash his face? And then, what if he came out of the library, and went to the meeting house on the corner and asked the pastor about it? And what next if he then discounted his father’s instruction by falling in with the church routine, singing the songs, praying, fellowshipping, and doing all these things rather than going to the bathroom to wash his face?
We would say, why on earth didn’t he just go upstairs to the bathroom and wash his face?
Of course, this is way more serious than face-washing.
It seems to me that the church is being just like that little disobedient boy. He has an idea what obedience might be, but his ideas are all outside of the actual obedience that would make his behaviour that of a son. He thinks obedience might exist in this or that, and all the while he is working it out, he is trying his best to avoid actually doing what his father said.
His father said to wash his face, and he hasn’t done it yet. He still hasn’t done it. He has discovered no end of other activities that he can do in place of his father’s instruction, substituting it, but that, even though it might look well and good, is still disobedience.
Something else is wanting here.
What has happened to us, in being born again, has made us one with our Father’s will. Obedience has become something much more than ritual, much more than going through the religious motions, much more than thumbing through the book of the law: it has become the substance of our relationship with the One Who loves us and Who paid the ultimate price for us to make us safe, eternally. Our obedience has become a matter of co-operation, in the present tense. This has happened because God has given us His Spirit, to tell us what He wants, how He wants us to behave, what He wants us to do, in the continuing moment of “now”.
Before church business goes too far, if we are born again, wouldn’t it be better to just do what God asks us, rather than go around all the houses trying to find loopholes in His will? Wouldn’t it be better to get up into that bathroom, and for goodness sake, just wash our face?


Much love to all
 
Nov 25, 2014
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#2
Yeah...except there are a couple of flaws in your analogy.

You're presuming that gathering with other Christians to pray, worship, and fellowship is somehow OUTSIDE the will of God. And it's not. In fact, the process of engaging in basic spiritual disciplines often provides many believers the fortitude to face the more daunting aspects of a spiritual walk with Jesus. While I'm engaged with these basics I'm communicating with God and hearing others communicate with God. I'm hearing the scriptures and letting those seeds be planted. I'm seeing real-life applications of these scriptures as people interact with each other. And I'm praising God.

You're also assuming that doing God's will means ONE kind of externalized action. I suppose the one thing demanded to truly do the will of God is ultimate surrender and submission. But that's not a one-time event. And not even an externalized event. True surrender and submission are heart issues. It's a continual process in the heart of a believer. (A process, btw, of the work of the Holy Spirit within us). Our obedience to God is only as good as our submission to HIS will above our own and our ability to perceive his desires for us.

Plus, outward actions are no indication of inner motivation.

For example, what if the child washes his face because he's scared that his father will send him to hell if he doesn't perfectly wash his face. In fact, he becomes so fearful of it that he begins to compulsively wash his face in an attempt to curry favor with the father and to not lose the love of the father. He's constantly worried that he's not washing his face enough, or he's using the wrong soap, or the wrong process....so he doesn't really spend any time with his dad because he's so concerned about earning affection.

Is that the kind of obedience God wants?

Or what if the child obeys in a perfunctory manner. He knows dad is powerful, but he hates his father's power. So he rolls his eyes as he passes dad to the bathroom and pats some water on his face and says to dad, "See! It's clean now!" And then he goes off to his room to sulk.

Is this the kind of obedience God wants?

Or what if the kid is all about the face washing, because he knows washing his face is WAY EASIER than engaging in any kind of inner examination. He smiles and gladly face washes because as long as he can say he's washing his face, like his dad told him too, then he can live in denial about how much he hates his little sister. Dad said wash my face...and my face is mighty, mighty clean, he thinks to himself as he punches his sister in the shoulder on the way to his room. Oh, and he's not spending any time with dad either...dad just wanted him to wash his face.

Is that the kind of obedience God wants?

It's really not about doing all this stuff for God. It's about having a relationship with God. So, if you are in a loving relationship with the Father and he says, "Sweetie, you may not realize it, but your face is a mess. You need to go wash your face." You gladly do it because you know your Father loves you. You trust that his instructions will never harm you, but only benefit you. Both the command and the response are predicated on RELATIONSHIP.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,095
6,479
113
#3
Obedience needs defining? Hmm.

John 14:15) If ye love me, keep my commandments

Matthew 12:50) For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Ephesians 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9) Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Now, I dare say, most people here would agree with the three passages of Scripture I posted, however I will also say most people here are not in obedience to His Commandments found in His Gospel in the New Testament. Especially the Three Ordinances He specifically gave us.

COMMUNION: Luke 22:14) And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. 15) And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: 16) For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. 17) And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: 18) For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. 19) And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. 20) Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

BAPTISM: Matthew 28:18) And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

FOOTWASHING: John 13:4) He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.
5) After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded. 6) Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?
7) Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.
8) Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. 9) Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. 10) Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. 11) For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean. 12) So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you? 13) Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. 14) If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. 15) For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. 16) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. 17) If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.


If one is not in obedience to these three, then one is not walking in obedience to Christ. There are as many excuses for not being in obedience to these three as there are those no in obedience to these three. Just wait, they will be revealed. However, there is only ONE reason to be in obedience to these three............HE SAID TO.

What is obedience? Did you not read this comment?
 
Jul 1, 2015
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#4
What I am saying is, that obedience needs to be in the present tense, as I said, the substance of our relationship with God, as a Father to a son or a daughter. And also I wasn't assuming or presuming anything, I was challenging and saying "what if...?"

Recently I have met numbers of Christians who believe that the power of God doesn't operate today. Some here may be in a fellowship where that is being taught. God says if they have the form of godliness but deny the power thereof, from such turn away. So (as was my experience a few years back) if we are busy developing human relationships and filling our day with church activities all centred on that fellowship, it could be that we will not hear when God says personally to us, COME OUT FROM THERE.

I know there are some very good fellowships out there, and fellowship is a wonderful thing, if it is in the Spirit. But it needs to be said that much of what we do, we just do, whether God approves or commands us personally or not. We just do the accepted thing and slot God into our prayer time some time later in the day. That is what happens on the broad road of Christianity.

Here is a command of Jesus:

Luke 13: [SUP]23 [/SUP]Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”And He said to them, [SUP]24 [/SUP]“Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. [SUP]25 [/SUP]When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ [SUP]26 [/SUP]then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ [SUP]27 [/SUP]But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’

Considering the perilous times we are undoubtedly in today, it isn't a bad idea to reconsider our doings, remember our first Love, and sharpen up our spiritual walk.

Love to all!
 
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
413
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#5
What is obedience?
In the body of Christ, that is, the church, it seems to me that we have a strange idea of what obedience is. Most of us attend a church building or other kind of gathering, and to some extent we do some praying, and some worship, and some study…and we enjoy fellowship together. All these things seem to be the substance of our obedience to God, and we have developed a confidence that God smiles upon us because He sees this obedience.
But what if God is not asking us to fellowship in that particular church, or to worship with those people, or to pray with them in that particular way, or even to have confidence that this form of religious works is acceptable? What would we be left with, if we had to take all that away?
I think we would be left with nothing that we could call obedience. That means we would be in a very serious position, even in a position that would cause us to ask ourselves, isn’t my obedience to God a principal requirement of service?
So, if what we are doing in all of these listed and accepted things is not obedience, wouldn’t that make it disobedience? Wouldn’t that endanger us spiritually and place us in a very problematic position before Jesus, when we finally stand before Him in that day?
To illustrate, imagine a father who has a son, and tells the son to go upstairs to the bathroom and wash his face. What would we think of the son if he instead went to the library and found the law section, and looked up whether a father has a right to tell his son to wash his face? And then, what if he came out of the library, and went to the meeting house on the corner and asked the pastor about it? And what next if he then discounted his father’s instruction by falling in with the church routine, singing the songs, praying, fellowshipping, and doing all these things rather than going to the bathroom to wash his face?
We would say, why on earth didn’t he just go upstairs to the bathroom and wash his face?
Of course, this is way more serious than face-washing.
It seems to me that the church is being just like that little disobedient boy. He has an idea what obedience might be, but his ideas are all outside of the actual obedience that would make his behaviour that of a son. He thinks obedience might exist in this or that, and all the while he is working it out, he is trying his best to avoid actually doing what his father said.
His father said to wash his face, and he hasn’t done it yet. He still hasn’t done it. He has discovered no end of other activities that he can do in place of his father’s instruction, substituting it, but that, even though it might look well and good, is still disobedience.
Something else is wanting here.
What has happened to us, in being born again, has made us one with our Father’s will. Obedience has become something much more than ritual, much more than going through the religious motions, much more than thumbing through the book of the law: it has become the substance of our relationship with the One Who loves us and Who paid the ultimate price for us to make us safe, eternally. Our obedience has become a matter of co-operation, in the present tense. This has happened because God has given us His Spirit, to tell us what He wants, how He wants us to behave, what He wants us to do, in the continuing moment of “now”.
Before church business goes too far, if we are born again, wouldn’t it be better to just do what God asks us, rather than go around all the houses trying to find loopholes in His will? Wouldn’t it be better to get up into that bathroom, and for goodness sake, just wash our face?


Much love to all
Sadly, if this is how you are seeing your relationship with Jesus, then you might as well go to the Library, and try to find everything that looks like a rule you can follow to "earn " and "prove" your worthiness.
 
V

VioletReigns

Guest
#6
I think I get where you're coming from, Sister Convallaria and I think I'm in agreement, if what you're saying is that obedience is something God works out in our spirit individually.

I was just reading the Word this morning about how God created us to be His natural children. And that the Spirit of Jesus Christ conforms us into His Divine Nature. It's all to God's credit. We are participating in His Divine Nature only because Jesus lives in us, and in Him we live and move and have our being.

Is that what you're saying?
 
Jul 1, 2015
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9
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#7
Obedience needs defining? Hmm.
Well yes, I think it does.

John 15:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]“These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. [SUP]12 [/SUP]This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. [SUP]14 [/SUP]You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. [SUP]15 [/SUP]No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. [SUP]16 [/SUP]You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. [SUP]17 [/SUP]These things I command you, that you love one another.


We are to love one another in Christ, and we are to bear fruit. I wonder how many of us have that experience in reality? Here's another:
1 Peter 5:[SUP]5 [/SUP]Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders. Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for
“God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.”[SUP][b][/SUP]

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time, [SUP]7 [/SUP]casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you.

I think it is important to say that a religious mindset is not often the same as a Holy Spirit mindset. A religious mindset will tend to pride and will resist challenge, whereas a mindset yielded to the Holy Spirit will examine itself immediately to see if it is falling on the wrong side of the challenge, humble itself, and repent if necessary. These are the things that bring powerful change in the church, because God can do something with us if we are yielded to Him.

I think it is a beautiful thing that God chooses the weak things of the world to confound the wise, and that he tells us unless we repent and become as little children we cannot enter the kingdom of God (Matt 18:3).

Re foot washing, I remember a good while ago, the look of horror on a pastor's face when I said "I think we could wash each others' feet". I had been reading the scriptures and loving the picture presented of servanthood, that Christ is among us to serve, and that this is our example. The pastor said flatly "we are not to do it literally" and that was the end of that. But the thing was, we didn't do it metaphorically either, we just didn't do it. In fact, many times the vulnerable among us were left without any kind of Godly counsel, or assistance, or ministerial servanthood. We were taught to slap on the smile and pretend that all was well.

Would you say that that was a church where obedience was practised? Not to the vulnerable it wasn't.

So yes I do think obedience needs to be defined, because it should be in the Spirit, according to the heart God has for the needy, and according to our capacity as our own heart responds to Him as the need arises.... and not according to the cold letter made of none effect by the traditions of men.
 
P

phil112

Guest
#8
Obedience needs defining? Hmm.................................................
This.

The problem is that people choose to be disobedient. They know what they're doing.
If they are unaware of what the bible says about a particular subject, it has been pointed out to them, especially here.
They desire to live as they are and they only try to justify what they do and frown on those that point out the errors of their ways.
 
Jul 1, 2015
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9
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#9
I think I get where you're coming from, Sister Convallaria and I think I'm in agreement, if what you're saying is that obedience is something God works out in our spirit individually.

I was just reading the Word this morning about how God created us to be His natural children. And that the Spirit of Jesus Christ conforms us into His Divine Nature. It's all to God's credit. We are participating in His Divine Nature only because Jesus lives in us, and in Him we live and move and have our being.

Is that what you're saying?
Absolutely sister Violet! Well put. Participating is the perfect word in this context, and it is a powerful process that in Him we LIVE and MOVE and have our BEING. I am saying we can't participate in the past tense, because that is actually disobedience...but in the present tense...as God moves us....we are in the Spirit!!

Praise God
 
R

Rosesrock

Guest
#10
Now im singing this song

"Obedience is the very best way
To show that you believe:
Doing exactly what the Lord commands,
Doing it happily.
Action is the key--do it immediately,
The joy you will receive!
Obedience is the very best way
To show that you believe.
O-B-E-D-I-E-N-C-E (Yes, sir!)
Obedience is the very best way
To show that you believe."
 
V

VioletReigns

Guest
#11
When I was a young Christian, I obeyed the Lord outwardly and thought that it proved I was righteous before God. I went through all the motions and "walked the walk" of church attendance and getting involved in various ministries and prayed "fervent" prayers and listened only to Christian radio programs. Obeying the letter of the law. And that was just fine. I was a babe in Christ, just learning to "walk" ya know?

But then it came time to walk on the water, to face impossible situations, to depend only on the grace of God in my difficult circumstances, to trust and obey from the heart and soul... and in THAT I failed miserably.

But here's the amazing grace.... every single time I found myself bankrupt of strength and wisdom, every single time I ran out of resources, every single time I cried out to God that I had no idea what to do and was afraid, every single time I was left all alone with nobody to help me, the Lord glorified Himself to me by making a way when there was no way. The Lord proved Himself to me personally in all of my circumstances in spite of me having nothing.

Because He first loved me, because the Lord my Father & God keeps proving Himself to me in glorious power, because the reality of God is becoming more and more real to me than everything else in this life, because Jesus is faithful... Faithful Lord!... He conforms me and makes my mind in agreement with Him and I can't help but obey. It's becoming my nature to be His Divine Nature. All glory to God! Absolutely none to me. Hallelujah! \:D/
 
Last edited:

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,704
3,649
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#12
Obedience, whatever it may be is rooted in faith, for whatever is not of faith is sin.
 
Jul 1, 2015
584
9
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#13
When I was a young Christian, I obeyed the Lord outwardly and thought that it proved I was righteous before God. I went through all the motions and "walked the walk" of church attendance and getting involved in various ministries and prayed "fervent" prayers and listened only to Christian radio programs. Obeying the letter of the law. And that was just fine. I was a babe in Christ, just learning to "walk" ya know?

But then it came time to walk on the water, to face impossible situations, to depend only on the grace of God in my difficult circumstances, to trust and obey from the heart and soul... and in THAT I failed miserably.

But here's the amazing grace.... every single time I found myself bankrupt of strength and wisdom, every single time I ran out of resources, every single time I cried out to God that I had no idea what to do and was afraid, every single time I was left all alone with nobody to help me, the Lord glorified Himself to me by making a way when there was no way. The Lord proved Himself to me personally in all of my circumstances in spite of me having nothing.

Because He first loved me, because the Lord my Father & God keeps proving Himself to me in glorious power, because the reality of God is becoming more and more real to me than everything else in this life, because Jesus is faithful... Faithful Lord!... He conforms me and makes my mind in agreement with Him and I can't help but obey. It's becoming my nature to be His Divine Nature. All glory to God! Absolutely none to me. Hallelujah! \:D/

Awesome sister and AMEN!!! :)
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,095
6,479
113
#14
QUOTE:

Re foot washing, I remember a good while ago, the look of horror on a pastor's face when I said "I think we could wash each others' feet". I had been reading the scriptures and loving the picture presented of servanthood, that Christ is among us to serve, and that this is our example. The pastor said flatly "we are not to do it literally" and that was the end of that. But the thing was, we didn't do it metaphorically either, we just didn't do it. In fact, many times the vulnerable among us were left without any kind of Godly counsel, or assistance, or ministerial servanthood. We were taught to slap on the smile and pretend that all was well.

Would you say that that was a church where obedience was practised? Not to the vulnerable it wasn't.

END QUOTATION

It they did not act in obedience to His Commandment, then, no, I would not say they were obedient, would you?
 

JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
14,551
2,171
113
#15
Building a love relationship with God.....

What if God asked you to take your only son up on top of a mountain and sacrifice him? Would you do it?

Abraham did and it was counted to him as being obedient to God because God directed Abraham to do it and it was counted as faith because Abraham listened to what God told him to do and he obeyed God......

How many of us are prompted by the Holy Spirit to do something and then obey and do it? How much faith do we have?
 
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
413
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#16
Building a love relationship with God.....

What if God asked you to take your only son up on top of a mountain and sacrifice him? Would you do it?

Abraham did and it was counted to him as being obedient to God because God directed Abraham to do it and it was counted as faith because Abraham listened to what God told him to do and he obeyed God......

How many of us are prompted by the Holy Spirit to do something and then obey and do it? How much faith do we have?
Truth? I avoid it more than I just go ahead and do it. I might eventually do it, but usually not without some resistance first.
 
Jul 1, 2015
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#17
Truth? I avoid it more than I just go ahead and do it. I might eventually do it, but usually not without some resistance first.
Honest response!
Matt 21:
[SUP]28 [/SUP]“But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, ‘Son, go, work today in my vineyard.’ [SUP]29 [/SUP]He answered and said, ‘I will not,’ but afterward he regretted it and went. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Then he came to the second and said likewise. And he answered and said, ‘I go, sir,’ but he did not go. [SUP]31 [/SUP]Which of the two did the will of his father?”
They said to Him, “The first.”