Question about bible interpretation?...

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
V

Vidy

Guest
#1
Ok, Imma keep this short, and I may as well include my motive for the question too =P


Me and my girlfriend are having a small disagreement over a certain principle. She believes that God has "ONE perfect plan for you," and God wants you to make certain choices to fulfill this plan. I believe that we have a little more freedom within God's will, and that we have a few options that are STILL godly. Now, the verse her mom uses for her side of view is Jeremiah 29:11, which talks about God having a plan for you, giving you hope and a prosperous future.

Now, reading the context, it is clearly talking about Israel as a nation, or certain enslaved people or something, talking about how it will eventually release them from captivity. However, the specific verse, 11, doesn't happen to mention all that.

My question is should this verse be considered "independent" and applied to all situations? Did the original writers of these passages really separate their writings like this, or was it meant to be read as a whole?

And as a side-note, it'd be nice if you could refer me to more scriptures on my specific situation =P
 
Feb 3, 2010
1,238
3
0
#2
God's plan for us it to love God and love our neighbor and care for the creation.

Our freedom is in how we choose to act this out.

It is like a painter

Paint + creativity = masterpiece
 
M

machew

Guest
#3
Ok, Imma keep this short, and I may as well include my motive for the question too =P


Me and my girlfriend are having a small disagreement over a certain principle. She believes that God has "ONE perfect plan for you," and God wants you to make certain choices to fulfill this plan. I believe that we have a little more freedom within God's will, and that we have a few options that are STILL godly. Now, the verse her mom uses for her side of view is Jeremiah 29:11, which talks about God having a plan for you, giving you hope and a prosperous future.

Now, reading the context, it is clearly talking about Israel as a nation, or certain enslaved people or something, talking about how it will eventually release them from captivity. However, the specific verse, 11, doesn't happen to mention all that.

My question is should this verse be considered "independent" and applied to all situations? Did the original writers of these passages really separate their writings like this, or was it meant to be read as a whole?

And as a side-note, it'd be nice if you could refer me to more scriptures on my specific situation =P
Before I start, I need to mention that God does not predestine our choices, some of the verses below are often used by Calvinist to argue that every choice we make was predestined by God. This of course is not true. God predestines His plans for us not our choices. We make the choice to follow His plan. Here is the scriptural support for Him predestining His plans for us.

Ephesians 1:11 (NASB)(emphasis mine)
11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
If you read this carefully you will notice that it is talking about His predestined purpose for our life that is according to the counsel of His will.

Now I will talk about how God accomplishes this:

Romans 8:28-30(NASB)(emphasis mine)
28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
So because God is completely outside of time and space, He was able to know beforehand the choices that we are going to make. God was able to predestine our purpose according to our choices and decisions. So what does this mean? It means that God can work all of our decisions for good because He already knows what we are going to choose. That is what Romans 8:28-30 is talking about.

My paraphrase of these verses(Romans 8:28-30):
He foreknew our existence and choices, so he predestined His plans for us to become like His Son Jesus, so that we would walk the earth just as Jesus did. So, He predestined this plan for us and called us into these plans, which is why He sent His Son to die for us on the cross to justify us, so that we would be glorified with Jesus.

A vital component to all of this is our choices. Essentially what this means is that God will work out everything as good as is possible without violating our choices. Paul many times brought correction to the Corinthians, Romans, etc. If you have read these letters enough you come to realize that despite the plan of God for their lives they made some poor decisions that Paul had to correct. It was great that Paul was able to correct them, but it was still their choice that got them down the wrong path. Had Paul not decided to follow God's leading to write a letter of correction, the world could be quite different today. So our choices actually can effect the plan that God has for our life. Each decision you make will effect the plan that God can carry out through you. Remember He predestined His plan for you based on your past, present, and future decisions. Some of these decisions are the difference between heaven and hell, most are not. However many decisions do determine how much God can use us. Consequently, both you and your girlfriend are right. God's plan for you is based on your freedom to make choices, but your choices effect how good that plan can be.

This is scary for a lot of people to realize, that God actually has ordained a lot of what happens on this planet to our choices. Now there are certain things that He ordained to happen regardless of our decisions. Something that is important to note is that in order for us to be a part of His non-negotiable sovereign plan, we do have to make a lot of the good choices that He leads us to. But a portion of what happens really is up to us. And our decisions will be tested in the fire when we approach Him in heaven. So saying that God has a perfect plan for you is true because His plan is shaped around your past, present, and future decision. It is also true that you have freedom to do what you want. But, what you choose shapes the plan that He has for you. Remember, that God is completely outside of time, knowing past, present, and future. But in order for Him to honor our free will some of what happens is decided by us.

In conclusion: You have freedom to make choices, but your choices can effect certain aspects of God's will, for the better or for the worse. Why would God entrust us with such a responsibility? I don't know. I sure wouldn't do the same, but I am not God, and realize that He sees the future and I do not.


Before ending on this note, I must emphasize that God is intentionally trying to communicate to us in ways to help us make good decisions. So it is not like God gave us authority over the world and our own lives, and is not a part of what is going on. He most assuredly is, and is looking for people who are seeking after His heart like David, where we can partner with Him, and He can show up supernaturally to shape the course of history through us.

I know this is more than you asked for, but I figured I would be thorough :p

Blessings,

Machew
 
M

machew

Guest
#4
My question is should this verse be considered "independent" and applied to all situations? Did the original writers of these passages really separate their writings like this, or was it meant to be read as a whole?
I just realized that I never really answered this question. What God has spoken in the Bible reveals His nature and character. And since God's character and nature never changed. This verse can be applied to many other situations (with what I spoke above in mind).
 
O

oopsies

Guest
#5
Ok, Imma keep this short, and I may as well include my motive for the question too =P


Me and my girlfriend are having a small disagreement over a certain principle. She believes that God has "ONE perfect plan for you," and God wants you to make certain choices to fulfill this plan. I believe that we have a little more freedom within God's will, and that we have a few options that are STILL godly. Now, the verse her mom uses for her side of view is Jeremiah 29:11, which talks about God having a plan for you, giving you hope and a prosperous future.

Now, reading the context, it is clearly talking about Israel as a nation, or certain enslaved people or something, talking about how it will eventually release them from captivity. However, the specific verse, 11, doesn't happen to mention all that.

My question is should this verse be considered "independent" and applied to all situations? Did the original writers of these passages really separate their writings like this, or was it meant to be read as a whole?

And as a side-note, it'd be nice if you could refer me to more scriptures on my specific situation =P
I agree with aspen and machew but thought I'd give you also yet another perspective.

Under the new covenant, we have Matthew 22:37-39:

Jesus replied said:
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbour as yourself.
In other words, love God with your entire self and after that, love everyone else like you would want to be loved.

Love isn't always a fuzzy feeling - more often than not, there is no fuzzy feeling - it is the act that defines love. When you truly love someone, you would want to do whatever it takes to make them happy. So, to love God with your entire self, you would want to do whatever it takes to make God happy. How do you know what makes God happy? Well, we read the Bible to find out what makes God happy.

To answer your question, yes in the passage, God is talking to Israel. He has plans for them - everyone, in fact - from Israel to the nations God will destroy and punish. That is a characteristic of God. That's what we learn from the Bible - the characteristics of God. One of them is that He has plans for everyone.

Now, I have a hunch that the question you really want to ask is do you have to follow God's plan for you? Somehow, I think you're worried about what plan God has for you. So if you can find out that God has no plan for you, then you don't have to follow this "non-existent" plan. ;) If that is the case, then not to worry. God wouldn't ask you to do something that is beyond your skill.
 
V

Vidy

Guest
#6
^^Not quite, but close. The thing is, in my relationship with my girlfriend, her parents are CONSTANTLY saying that I'm not permanent yet, and that we don't know if I'm "In God's plan for her," or if she's in mine. I know God has plans for me, but the thing is, is there only ONE plan he would like us to take?

I'm just kinda confused on the whole thing, because the logic runs in circles... What if you sin and it messes up God's intended plan? People tell me, "Oh, he accounts for you sin and makes a new plan." But did he not know of the sin and make the plan ahead of time? But if he knew about it, why was the "new" plan not in the original plan?


If you want the true root of the question, it's fear that God will "split" me and my girlfriend, because it's not in his intended "plan." I'm not TOO worried atm, because there are no signs that He wants that right now, but still... Can I not choose who I want to be with unless he specifically tells me not to be with them? And if I can't, but do anyway, is it sin??



But yeah, this is off the main topic I was trying to put in the thread... Is the Bible supposed to be read as a whole, or are the numbers and spacing placed AFTER the Bible was written of any significance? I mean, the Bible wasn't spaced into these small sentences piece by piece while it was being written... At least I don't think so... So why on earth would Jeremiah 29:11 not be applied to Israel and only Israel? Is it PURELY because of those numbers that happen to have been placed there?



This question also comes from a background of me hating English class. I don't like deep meanings, and like to see things at face value. In fact, in English class I've been asked to find the OPPOSITE of what the author was conveying, using strategies similar to this that involves removing context like this. I don't like to look at the small particulars that may or may not mean something significant, and rather like to look at what it actually SAYS.

Another things I HATE is when people say, "Oh, it can be interpreted this way, this way, this way, AND this way!!" Now, while I agree some authors may use double entendres, I honestly think that in most cases, and author wrote something to have one meaning, and then an over-eager literature critic comes along and BAM, twelve different "meanings." See what I mean?
 
Dec 19, 2009
27,513
128
0
71
#7
Ok, Imma keep this short, and I may as well include my motive for the question too =P


Me and my girlfriend are having a small disagreement over a certain principle. She believes that God has "ONE perfect plan for you," and God wants you to make certain choices to fulfill this plan. I believe that we have a little more freedom within God's will, and that we have a few options that are STILL godly. Now, the verse her mom uses for her side of view is Jeremiah 29:11, which talks about God having a plan for you, giving you hope and a prosperous future.

Now, reading the context, it is clearly talking about Israel as a nation, or certain enslaved people or something, talking about how it will eventually release them from captivity. However, the specific verse, 11, doesn't happen to mention all that.

My question is should this verse be considered "independent" and applied to all situations? Did the original writers of these passages really separate their writings like this, or was it meant to be read as a whole?

And as a side-note, it'd be nice if you could refer me to more scriptures on my specific situation =P
On the one hand, you need to be willing to do what the Lord asks you to do. I imagine he has a plan for all of us.

On the other hand, your girlfriend and her mother can’t know for sure what it is the Lord is asking you to do, and they need to let you decide for yourself.

Right?
 
V

Vidy

Guest
#8
On the one hand, you need to be willing to do what the Lord asks you to do. I imagine he has a plan for all of us.

On the other hand, your girlfriend and her mother can’t know for sure what it is the Lord is asking you to do, and they need to let you decide for yourself.

Right?
True, but it's not JUST me, it's also her, which makes it complicated =P

I'm (barely) willing to leave if God makes it PERFECTLY clear that I shouldn't be with her (though it will definitely be hard because I do, without a doubt, love her unconditionally). And what do I do if God doesn't tell me no, but He doesn't really say yes or make it clear that she's "the one." Or what if he tells one of us yes and one of us no?? How do we know who's actually receiving an answer from God, and who's just rationalizing the situation themselves?

It's an all-around confusing situation, and it can be neither resolved nor dropped... Bleh.
 
G

glenwood74

Guest
#9
Psalm 139: 16....You(GOD) saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in Your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed.

Is it predestination that God knows the choices we will make before we make them? The Lord sees the choice coming towards us and He knows which way we have already chosen, but we exist in time and we can't even imagine the coming choice until it presents itself at the proper time.

A paradox that truly boggles the mind. I need a Tylenol.
 
Dec 19, 2009
27,513
128
0
71
#10
True, but it's not JUST me, it's also her, which makes it complicated =P

I'm (barely) willing to leave if God makes it PERFECTLY clear that I shouldn't be with her (though it will definitely be hard because I do, without a doubt, love her unconditionally). And what do I do if God doesn't tell me no, but He doesn't really say yes or make it clear that she's "the one." Or what if he tells one of us yes and one of us no?? How do we know who's actually receiving an answer from God, and who's just rationalizing the situation themselves?

It's an all-around confusing situation, and it can be neither resolved nor dropped... Bleh.
I can’t know from here what the Lord’s will is regarding your girlfriend and you. You just have to do your best to walk with the Lord. He will show you what to do. Have some patience.
 
V

Vidy

Guest
#11
Psalm 139: 16....You(GOD) saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in Your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed.

Is it predestination that God knows the choices we will make before we make them? The Lord sees the choice coming towards us and He knows which way we have already chosen, but we exist in time and we can't even imagine the coming choice until it presents itself at the proper time.

A paradox that truly boggles the mind. I need a Tylenol.
Lol, yeah XD But that doesn't necessarily imply that he wants you to do a certain thing, but rather he knows what you WILL do lol. That in itself is not a paradox I don't think, though it is a difficult concept to grasp sometimes ~_o
 
V

Vidy

Guest
#12
Here's a (kinda funny) example of what I'm saying that I just grabbed from another topic XD Psalm 151:5

5My brothers were handsome and tall,
but the Lord was not pleased with them.

Now, my brother is tall and questionably handsome. Does this mean that the Lord is not pleased with him?!!? THIS VERSE SAYS SO!!!!

lol
 
G

glenwood74

Guest
#13
You understand there is no psalm 151.....
 
V

Vidy

Guest
#15
Lol, oops XD But I'm sure there are other verses within the Bible that similar things can be done with. You just don't do it, because it's obviously very stupid to do so. However, when things become just slightly fuzzier, or sound good explained in a different way, people tend to be quick to jump on this alternate interpretation. My question is if the Bible is MEANT to be interpreted in this way, or is the truth that in most cases, it's supposed to be relatively clear?
 
O

oopsies

Guest
#16
^^Not quite, but close. The thing is, in my relationship with my girlfriend, her parents are CONSTANTLY saying that I'm not permanent yet, and that we don't know if I'm "In God's plan for her," or if she's in mine. I know God has plans for me, but the thing is, is there only ONE plan he would like us to take?

I'm just kinda confused on the whole thing, because the logic runs in circles... What if you sin and it messes up God's intended plan? People tell me, "Oh, he accounts for you sin and makes a new plan." But did he not know of the sin and make the plan ahead of time? But if he knew about it, why was the "new" plan not in the original plan?

If you want the true root of the question, it's fear that God will "split" me and my girlfriend, because it's not in his intended "plan." I'm not TOO worried atm, because there are no signs that He wants that right now, but still... Can I not choose who I want to be with unless he specifically tells me not to be with them? And if I can't, but do anyway, is it sin??

This question also comes from a background of me hating English class. I don't like deep meanings, and like to see things at face value. In fact, in English class I've been asked to find the OPPOSITE of what the author was conveying, using strategies similar to this that involves removing context like this. I don't like to look at the small particulars that may or may not mean something significant, and rather like to look at what it actually SAYS.

Another things I HATE is when people say, "Oh, it can be interpreted this way, this way, this way, AND this way!!" Now, while I agree some authors may use double entendres, I honestly think that in most cases, and author wrote something to have one meaning, and then an over-eager literature critic comes along and BAM, twelve different "meanings." See what I mean?
Oh, well... hmmm... I do believe that God has a plan for us and I use it as an overarching singular noun (though this one great plan can have many sub-plans to get us to the end). So, there's that overall great big plan but at any particular moment in our lives, there are small plans (or nudges) to get us to complete the overall great plan for our lives.

As for responding, I don't think there's an issue with that. If it's not because you did something wrong, I don't think God would purposely put you in a place you don't want to be. So if you don't want God's plan to send you to a very dangerous part of Africa, He probably won't send you there. But over time, you might suddenly one day feel like it might not be so bad to go to Africa. If that's part of His plan, then He might nudge you to then take action by opening doors and closing others - either to prepare you to go to Africa or to send you there right away! So if you're worried that God will break up the two of you, I say you don't need to worry if it's not an unholy relationship. But will you break up with her in the future? I don't know but if it does happen, it's either your girlfriend who wants to break up (so, not God's doing), or you want to break up (not God's doing), or both of you want to break up (not God's doing).

You have to remember that God is omnipotent and omniscient - He can see the future. We can't do that. So one has to be careful of how we assign or interpret this "plan." Just move along in life but pay attention to any surprising feelings you may have. Those are your "nudges." But you need to be careful in how you discern because you don't want to respond to the wrong "nudge" that might not be from the Holy Spirit!

You can choose to ignore the plan (which probably isn't such a great idea) or you can choose to respond to it. I chose to respond to mine and though it is difficult and trying at times, it is not as bad as it sounds. If you were to ask me to respond to the calling a few years ago, I would have balked and said no. I wouldn't worry too much about it other than to listen and discern. When you're ready, you will know. Unfortunately, there's no magical formula to all this. :(

But yeah, this is off the main topic I was trying to put in the thread... Is the Bible supposed to be read as a whole, or are the numbers and spacing placed AFTER the Bible was written of any significance? I mean, the Bible wasn't spaced into these small sentences piece by piece while it was being written... At least I don't think so... So why on earth would Jeremiah 29:11 not be applied to Israel and only Israel? Is it PURELY because of those numbers that happen to have been placed there?
I believe in both - as a whole and separate parts but I'm not sure how to explain it to you... it just... makes sense to me lol

This question also comes from a background of me hating English class. I don't like deep meanings, and like to see things at face value. In fact, in English class I've been asked to find the OPPOSITE of what the author was conveying, using strategies similar to this that involves removing context like this. I don't like to look at the small particulars that may or may not mean something significant, and rather like to look at what it actually SAYS.

Another things I HATE is when people say, "Oh, it can be interpreted this way, this way, this way, AND this way!!" Now, while I agree some authors may use double entendres, I honestly think that in most cases, and author wrote something to have one meaning, and then an over-eager literature critic comes along and BAM, twelve different "meanings." See what I mean?
The Bible was never meant to be difficult for people to read and understand. It is God's Word. He wants us to understand - not to be confused with everything He has for us to read. I hold to two ways of interpreting it - a strict way and a casual way. Guess which one is more dangerous? ;) Keep in mind a few things.

a) most of us are not Jewish
b) we don't live in Israel (or at least I don't)
c) we don't fully understand the cultural and society aspects of ancient times
d) the Bible was written during a time where a lot of the history and culture is lost or destroyed

To understand what's going on, you need to place yourself in the shoes of the Jews back in the day. It is not easy - that's why we have historians, archaeologists, and scholars to help us with that. Then look at the passage/verses through their eyes. For example, many of Jesus' parables were about farming, viticulture, fishing, etc. These were occupations that most people understood back in those times. So when Jesus told a parable, they understood what He was saying. We don't. The last time I checked, few of us have fished on the Sea of Galilee. But if you put yourself in their shoes, you would understand that the Sea of Galilee experiences great storms quite often. So now when you read the story where Jesus walked on water, it puts you in their shoes - the disciples were absolutely stricken with fear in that rickety wooden boat! Or, when Jesus gives the parable of the enemy sowing weeds in the master's fields, historians have provided us with information that back then, it was very common for a jealous neighbouring farmer to sow weeds in their neighbour's fields. If we were neighbours and I saw that your fields produced a better crop of wheat, I might sow some weeds. This weed I sow is poisonous and actually looks like the wheat you grow until they mature (then you can tell the difference). This became a huge problem so the Romans passed a law to criminalize the practice. Now when you read Matthew13:24 - 30, you will look at it from a new understanding and perspective. But would you have understood all that from a modern-day life-view? No.

Then there is the language barrier. The English Bible(s) you have are all translated. When you translate from one language to another, some meanings are lost. There's no argument there. The English language (which will surprise many people) is actually a very poor language to communicate feelings, culture, and history. So much is lost when you translate into English. Many Middle-Eastern, Slavic, and Asian languages are far more novel and delicate when it comes to words as compared to the English language. So keep that in mind. When you read something, wonder what the original word really means. Try to find out. When you start doing this, you will begin to realize that there are some interpretations that just don't hold water simply because the Bible doesn't say either for or against.

So if you have an interpretation that's unclear because the Bible is apparently silent on the matter, what do you do then? You look at the whole Bible to see if there is a general rule or teaching that can be used to interpret the question/passage/verse. What if there isn't one? Well, it could mean one of a few things:

a) it's not an issue with God
b) it's an issue but you can only understand it from the original writings which we don't have or are lost
c) it is unknown, err on the side of caution

One popular example of that is the age-old question of is masturbation a sin? There are several places in the Bible where there could be examples of masturbation but it is not clear in the original writings (you need a Bible encyclopedia to help you out with this). Even if there were examples of it, the Bible does not make an issue of it in those verses/passages. So, we rule out the first way of reading it. Can some other lessons, laws, understandings, and teachings in other parts of the Bible help us interpret this issue? The answer is no - at least not on the act of masturbating. There are many verses and passages to help us interpret on whether the thoughts, the feelings, and other actions associated with this act is a sin or not but not on this act specifically. For example, fantasizing while masturbating could be a sin but it doesn't mean the act of masturbating is a sin. Or, masturbation can lead to an addiction. The addiction would be wrong but that still leaves us wondering if the act of masturbation without an addiction is a sin or not. So we have a problem. We still don't have an answer. So, let's look at what Jews hold to back in the day. Jews hold that masturbation is a sin. They use Onan as an example. However, from step 1, you would have understood from your research that Onan's example is really about corpus interuptus. It was where Onan violated the levirate laws that Judah had created. It was also an issue of greed and selfishness. Seed-wasting is also not very clear as to whether that is an act of masturbation or not. It can have multiple meanings! So we're still stuck. What to do?

a) God doesn't really care about this issue, or
b) it's an issue and God does care but we can't find it from the original writings, or
c) the Holy Spirit convicts you every time you masturbate and therefore you should stop, or
d) err on the side of caution - don't masturbate

I would probably take the stance of c) or d) as the safest bets.

A casual interpretation would not go through all these steps. It would stop short of putting ourselves in the shoes of the people in ancient times. It would not look at logical fallacies of different interpretations. It would only hold to tradition and verses quoted out of context. Sometimes, a casual interpretation is correct. Sometimes, it is not. You have to be careful. Again, there's no hard and fast rule to all this. It takes practice and time.

If you're really interested in figuring all this stuff out, try the exercise of figuring out whether the Bible says masturbation is a sin or not. Once you begin digging around, you will understand what I mean. If you don't have a Bible encyclopedia, try the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia edited by Bromiley. It's free online (I have the book version). You will not find "masturbate/masturbation" under "M." So you might start with Onan, then levirate, Judah, Tamar, covering of one's feet, Saul, David, right (for right hand), left, eye, gouge, punishments, emission, and so forth. Then Google to find an interpretation that makes sense. Keep a handy list of logical fallacies beside you and compare each explanation with that list. I can assure you that you will only really find a few handful of biblically researched interpretations and only one site that attempts to point out all the fallacies for each argument given complete with verses and passages.

Try doing the research. It will be a great learning exercise for you.
 
V

Vidy

Guest
#17
Hey oopsies, I did that just a few weeks ago ^_^ There was a topic here on CC so I decided to google search the topic, and surprisingly the first three results said it WASN'T as long as there was no lusting, and some went mroe in depth than others. The best one mentioned these things-

#1- There is a part where it declares certain actions "unclean." Emission of semen is one of these, but right after it also said sex with your wife meant you were unclean also, so unclean is not necessarily sin. Also, if it WAS sin, this would have been a good time to bring up the topic, seeing as it's not like the Bible ignored "taboo" topics and masturbation was probably existent at the time.

#2- The story with Onan, like you said, was more about refusing to bear a child and lose his inheritance than it was about wasting his seed. It was not a sexual sin, but a sin of greed.

#3- The whole "covering your feet" thing could mean either peeing or masturbating, and in both cases that it happens in the Bible, it is not condemned.

Also, something about your "Jewish law" thing. Jewish law was flawed, as we see in Jesus's teaching. One example is that Jewish law stated that you could only take x amount of steps on the Sabbath, and you could not do miracles, ect. Jesus made it a point that it doesn't matter, as long as you are honoring God in what you do.

A point on honoring God that I haven't seen anywhere, but came up with myself (tell me if I'm right here). Masturbation, at least for guys, could be considered something "personal." It is not necessarily sin, but it doesn't really worship God. It's like taking a crap- Sometimes you just do it, and it's not like "Thank you God for expelling this waste from my body!@#$!@" As long as you are not DIShonoring God with unholy lust, it's OK =)

The only real question that remains for me on this subject is this- What defines "adultery in your heart?" Is it thoughts about a specific woman? Or is it just general sexual thoughts about women in general? For example, excuse me for the slightly crude example, if I imagined a woman's crotch area during masturbation. Would this be having sex with a woman, or does it have to be a specific person for it to count? And if it IS a specific person, does hentai (animated porn) count also??

Also, sexual topics are generally confusing anyway. Even in the standard "marrying before sex," it can get pretty confusing. It's right to have a physical attraction to your partner before marriage, but doing certain physical things is definitely off-limits. It's ALL fine once you're in the marriage, but until that point, you are very limited (and some may have to limit themselves more than others). Same concept with masturbation- It is fine and good unless it's done in particular ways or circumstances, namely lusting and addiction.


That's what I came to anyway, are there any logical flaws there? Thanks =) Oh, and I love logic, especially in debates (though I don't think we're really debating here lol). It annoys my parents and my girlfriend's parents, because I argue over picky stuff because I really think it's fun =P It has nothing to do with resisting authority or anything, it's just a fun way to keep my mind exercised and stuff lol. Unfortunately, I sometimes forget that the other person may not be so fond of arguing =S=P
 
O

oopsies

Guest
#18
Hey oopsies, I did that just a few weeks ago ^_^ There was a topic here on CC so I decided to google search the topic, and surprisingly the first three results said it WASN'T as long as there was no lusting, and some went mroe in depth than others. The best one mentioned these things-
Ah but that is a logical fallacy in its own. Just because the Bible is silent on the issue, it doesn't mean it's not a sin. See, it is an unknown. To say that it's not a sin because of a, b, or c becomes casual interpretation. So although some of the sites say that it wasn't a sin as long as there's no lusting, etc. then that would be a casual interpretation because the Bible doesn't say either.

#1- There is a part where it declares certain actions "unclean." Emission of semen is one of these, but right after it also said sex with your wife meant you were unclean also, so unclean is not necessarily sin. Also, if it WAS sin, this would have been a good time to bring up the topic, seeing as it's not like the Bible ignored "taboo" topics and masturbation was probably existent at the time.
Yes, that is true. In the Book of Leviticus, there is a list of sexual or sexual-related "uncleanliness." Here's where you need to be careful of the word "unclean." Scholars themselves aren't sure of whether it is referring to sin or to uncleanliness as in disease or to something else. So although it is "unclean," it does not mean it is sin or not a sin. It is silent or not understood by us today. A casual interpretation would be to say that women can't control their monthly period (which is unclean) and men cannot control nocturnal emissions (which by the way, several verses are not referring specifically to emissions made at night or when asleep).

Can you then say that the entire section implies that we are unclean even of the things we do that are beyond our control, sinful in nature? (Because of the uncleanliness, people had to make sin offerings every time they had an emission, every time they had a period, every time they had marital sex.) I would say yes because of the Book of Ecclesiastes (all things we do is meaningless without God) and in one of Paul's letters, he basically says that we are all sinful and that no one is righteous, and in Job, though he followed all of God's sacrificial commands, etc. he was still found to be guilty of self-righteousness. But that does not tell us whether masturbation is a "sin" or not. All it tells us is that all things are sinful in nature and that includes masturbation as much as it includes breathing, eating, and sleeping.

#2- The story with Onan, like you said, was more about refusing to bear a child and lose his inheritance than it was about wasting his seed. It was not a sexual sin, but a sin of greed.
I agree with this though there are many who do not because it is wasted "seed." One point of interest is that there is a medical myth that has been circulating that if a man does not masturbate and excrete the spermatozoa, he would get an infection in the testes. That's a fallacy. Our sperm is made of protein and if not "used," the (if I recall correctly) white blood cells break it down so that the protein can be reabsorbed by our bloodstream. So to say that masturbation is required for health reasons is a fallacy - it is not - our body knows how to deal with it. For women, they can't control their "seed" or rather, egg. Every month, the ovary(ies?) will release an egg(s?). If it is not fertilized, the egg "forms" on the side of the uterus. At the end of the month, the inner lining will be pushed out - we know this as the monthly emission (period). So a female wastes her "seed" every month.

Here's the thing, if you look at Jewish law, it is forbidden for males to masturbate but it is not forbidden for women to masturbate (although it is frowned upon). Check out AskMoses.com to read their explanations - it is quite interesting.

#3- The whole "covering your feet" thing could mean either peeing or masturbating, and in both cases that it happens in the Bible, it is not condemned.
Yes, I agree.

Also, something about your "Jewish law" thing. Jewish law was flawed, as we see in Jesus's teaching. One example is that Jewish law stated that you could only take x amount of steps on the Sabbath, and you could not do miracles, ect. Jesus made it a point that it doesn't matter, as long as you are honoring God in what you do.
Jewish law is not always flawed or wrong. There is a lot that is added to the original Mosaic laws. You'll have to refer to another thread in the forum about whether it is necessary to continue to obey the mosaic laws (or was it the 10 commandments?) I forget. Maybe someone can help you out here.

But the point is not about honouring God - it is about loving God with your entire self - your mind, your soul, your heart. Part of loving God is to honour Him but here's the flaw - one can say that we honour God for anything. Bodybuilders have told me before that they lift in honour of God - what does that mean? It can mean anything! It is a dangerous interpretation that they made for themselves. I can say I'm honouring God whenever I laugh at Miktre, watchman, and cup of ruin. But does that mean I'm actually honouring God? You cannot say and it is very difficult to say otherwise too. Robert Pickton said he killed all those prostitutes because he was honouring God - the prostitutes were sinning sexually, so he said he "honoured" God by killing them. So one cannot say that whatever they do, do in honour of God because that would lead to a dangerous place. Which leads us back to masturbation - you cannot say that you can masturbate as long as you are honouring God in the act because that would be a logical fallacy.

A point on honoring God that I haven't seen anywhere, but came up with myself (tell me if I'm right here). Masturbation, at least for guys, could be considered something "personal." It is not necessarily sin, but it doesn't really worship God. It's like taking a crap- Sometimes you just do it, and it's not like "Thank you God for expelling this waste from my body!@#$!@" As long as you are not DIShonoring God with unholy lust, it's OK =)
See above on the medical part and the honouring God part.

The only real question that remains for me on this subject is this- What defines "adultery in your heart?" Is it thoughts about a specific woman? Or is it just general sexual thoughts about women in general? For example, excuse me for the slightly crude example, if I imagined a woman's crotch area during masturbation. Would this be having sex with a woman, or does it have to be a specific person for it to count? And if it IS a specific person, does hentai (animated porn) count also??
If you are married, then that would be much easier to answer because a single thought of another person done in lust (or any sexual "feeling" - including porn - animated or not) would disqualify you from innocence. i.e. you would have sinned.

For singles, that is much more difficult to answer. Check out a thread... there was one about singles and adultery. Someone raised a point in that thread - how then do you become attracted to another individual who may eventually become your husband/wife? But I would say any form of pornography (as we know it today) would be sinful though I have not done any research on it - be careful not to fall into the "well, the Bible never mentions computers and cars so it must be ok" kind of thinking.

Also, sexual topics are generally confusing anyway. Even in the standard "marrying before sex," it can get pretty confusing. It's right to have a physical attraction to your partner before marriage, but doing certain physical things is definitely off-limits. It's ALL fine once you're in the marriage, but until that point, you are very limited (and some may have to limit themselves more than others). Same concept with masturbation- It is fine and good unless it's done in particular ways or circumstances, namely lusting and addiction.
I would look at the root of why you would want to do those "things" whatever they may be. So if you and your girlfriend have this sudden urge to passionately make out, ask yourself why? I heard a pastor once suggest that a great exercise to find out the why in some of the things you do is to keep asking why. Do it alone because if you're around someone, you tend to be dishonest. If you're alone, it is easier. Keep asking why for every answer you get. Eventually, you'll get to the real truth - the one that's deep down in your heart.

That's what I came to anyway, are there any logical flaws there? Thanks =) Oh, and I love logic, especially in debates (though I don't think we're really debating here lol). It annoys my parents and my girlfriend's parents, because I argue over picky stuff because I really think it's fun =P It has nothing to do with resisting authority or anything, it's just a fun way to keep my mind exercised and stuff lol. Unfortunately, I sometimes forget that the other person may not be so fond of arguing =S=P
This one is easier. Paul instructs us to lift up the body of Christ at whatever cost to ourselves. Your girlfriend and her parents are part of the the body of Christ (I assume) so it is better that you do not argue than to place a stumbling block in their path so that they become angry or upset because you wish to debate/argue. Check out the "What is love?" thread that I started - some people have provided great responses. You might get something there and apply it to your own relationship with your girlfriend and her family.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#19
God's plan for us is to be conformed to the image of Christ Jesus. How that happens in this life is just that, life, in Him. The more we become immersed in Him, in His life, the less we will have burned up when we see Him. I am always amazed when people think that they know what God has for another, and your girlfriends parents saying that they do not know if you have a place in their daughters life is a little more than strange. I have found after 38 years of being married that God chooses our partners for this life, and if He draws us to another who is to be our life partner, we will know, sooner or later. We commit to our partner, and we accept that this commitment will affect every aspect of our lives. Even our lives in Christ. He is big enough for this.
 
V

Vidy

Guest
#20
Ok, a few things ^_^

Where are you getting the "unknown does not necessarily mean not sinful" thing? If God really wanted to speak out against something, he certainly would have, huh?

Also, the Jewish law, while I realize it wasn't always flawed, it still had flaws and is not a Biblical basis. Jewish custom can sometimes be used to get a clearer picture of the circumstance, but I don't think you should use it by itself in judging the sinful nature of a certain activity. Also, I believe we're ont he same page on the "honouring God" thing. Not everything you do is supposed to honour God (thought nothing is supposed to dishonour Him), and calling something honour does not change dishonouring behavior into honouring behavior.

Also, for the whole questions I have remaining thing- I knew hentai was probably wrong, but what about it makes it wrong? Is it just the general lust of women, period? And if so, that means just coming up with a 100% imaginary picture of (parts of) someone in your picture would also be wrong? Anyway, an interesting thing I've noticed, but been kinda scared to point out- the verse says adultery. Adultery implies that you are in a marriage, because otherwise it is fornication. Is there any reason to believe that this philosophy applies also to the unmarried? I'm definitely NOT trying to make a point here, I'm genuinely curious.


And finally, the whole arguing thing... Yeah, I know ^_^ Unfortunately, my gf's mom declared an ultimatum and said that if she keeps seeing conflict between me and her, she is ending the relationship... I have yet to talk to my gf about this since she happens to be grounded until Friday+, but I'm just going to give my gf's mom a cold shoulder and occasionally thank her for the effort she goes through to plan trips and get Mr V to let me date her daughter... Since apparently she wasn't supposed to be in a "serious" emotional relationship like this until she was 16 (even though she could have a boyfriend at 13... The logic behind THIS one makes no sense to me XD). And- this is the hard one- I'm supposed to encourage her to give full respect to her parents even when her parents are dead wrong. Woo -.- Trying and learning, but I hate being scared to death over this whole thing =(


Oh, and to prevent a few possible confusions about what I just said, here's some info- I'm 17, she's 15. Our B-days are right around standard school entrance cut-off dates in September. I barely missed the cut, but got in anyway since my parents taught me advanced stuff like multiplication before kindergarten XD Her birth parents... Not so much... Plus, she missed the date my a couple more weeks than I did, and her parents weren't very concerned about her =( She's adopted now with different parents though, so it's cool. Anyway, the point of that was explain grade difference- She's in 9th and I'm in 12th. It's hard, and even though her parents preach about how they're doing all this stuff to help us, they honestly just make it harder =/ </off-topicminirant)