The beginning of salvation

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wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
2,987
1,014
113
New Zealand
#1
Now I don't want this to be an OSAS or not debate but I do want to address something that is quite a big difference between OSAS believers.

It is the starting point at salvation.

The calvinist may believe in OSAS but never actual call for salvation... how is this biblical?

Is not the biblical example.. BELIEVE in Jesus Christ.. call for salvation.. and then you are eternally saved?

The person is of course convicted by the Holy Spirit first.. but I do not believe.. nor do I believe the bible teaches that this is irresistable.

If Romans 10-- is NOT an act of free will to call for salvation from Jesus to be eternally saved... then what is it?



I am neither Calvinist nor Armenian.. I believe the bible teaches that salvation IS called for.. by free will after being convicted by the Holy Spirit.

I also believe contrary to the armenian that this is completely eternally secure.

Anyway..


I don't know where in the bible the idea is that a person cannot actually call for salvation in the first place. Surely the likes of Romans chapter 10 are a direct contradiction to that teaching.
 
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sparkman

Guest
#2
To be honest, a Calvinist is a practical Arminian when it comes to evangelizing or talking to a seeker. By the way I dislike the word Calvinist. Monergist is a much better word. I have never read a book by John Calvin but I am a monergist.

The only difference is that the monergist views salvation as God's work from beginning to end, and has confidence that God's work is not a matter of randomness, but that he is confident to bring that person to faith, from the initial point to the completion. This is reflected in the golden chain of redemption in Romans 8:28-30. God speaks of the salvation of those he saves as if it is past tense.

Monergists have confidence that God knows what he is doing, and that he is capable of bringing the worst sinner to faith. Paul would be a very good example. Despite his fierce persecution of Christians, he was easily brought to submission by God on the Road To Damascus. It took knocking him off his donkey and blinding him to get his attention, but he was able to accomplish it with ease. I don't think any of us is any bigger challenge to God than the Apostle Paul.

At any rate, man's responsibility and God's sovereignty is a great mystery even though Scripture teaches both. I am also convinced that no man suffers eternal punishment without deserving it, and that no Christian can boast of anything regarding his salvation. Exactly how all that works out is beyond me.

Ephesians 2:8-9 clearly says that all parts of salvation are a gift from God, including the faith that enables him to respond. Repentance is also given by God.

The amazing thing is that God himself gives us faith (Acts 16:14, Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Peter 1:1, Philippians 1:29, Acts 3:16) and grants us repentance (Acts 11:18, 2 Timothy 2:25).Those who are saved have nothing to boast about whatsoever because of this; it is not about human works (Romans 3:20, 27-28, 4:5, 1 Corinthians 1:31, Galatians 2:16).Salvation is God’s work.

Now I don't want this to be an OSAS or not debate but I do want to address something that is quite a big difference between OSAS believers.

It is the starting point at salvation.

The calvinist may believe in OSAS but never actual call for salvation... how is this biblical?

Is not the biblical example.. BELIEVE in Jesus Christ.. call for salvation.. and then you are eternally saved?

The person is of course convicted by the Holy Spirit first.. but I do not believe.. nor do I believe the bible teaches that this is irresistable.

If Romans 10-- is NOT an act of free will to call for salvation from Jesus to be eternally saved... then what is it?



I am neither Calvinist nor Armenian.. I believe the bible teaches that salvation IS called for.. by free will after being convicted by the Holy Spirit.

I also believe contrary to the armenian that this is completely eternally secure.

Anyway..


I don't know where in the bible the idea is that a person cannot actually call for salvation in the first place. Surely the likes of Romans chapter 10 are a direct contradiction to that teaching.
 
Last edited:
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sparkman

Guest
#3
I would also suggest that you read a systematic theology by a monergistic author, as I don't think you are reflecting what monergists believe in regards to how God works in salvation. They do in fact believe that God calls sinners to repentance.

John Frame has a good systematic theology written from a monergistic perspective.

Now I don't want this to be an OSAS or not debate but I do want to address something that is quite a big difference between OSAS believers.

It is the starting point at salvation.

The calvinist may believe in OSAS but never actual call for salvation... how is this biblical?

Is not the biblical example.. BELIEVE in Jesus Christ.. call for salvation.. and then you are eternally saved?

The person is of course convicted by the Holy Spirit first.. but I do not believe.. nor do I believe the bible teaches that this is irresistable.

If Romans 10-- is NOT an act of free will to call for salvation from Jesus to be eternally saved... then what is it?



I am neither Calvinist nor Armenian.. I believe the bible teaches that salvation IS called for.. by free will after being convicted by the Holy Spirit.

I also believe contrary to the armenian that this is completely eternally secure.

Anyway..


I don't know where in the bible the idea is that a person cannot actually call for salvation in the first place. Surely the likes of Romans chapter 10 are a direct contradiction to that teaching.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
#4
Hey Wattie...how is Christchurch going.....so...if it is not eternal then what cause one to lose it and I would reccomend a different church if you reject eternal security.....so does eternal mean temporary?
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
2,987
1,014
113
New Zealand
#5
Hey Wattie...how is Christchurch going.....so...if it is not eternal then what cause one to lose it and I would reccomend a different church if you reject eternal security.....so does eternal mean temporary?
Hi DC--

Christchurch is going alright.. still taking a long time to repair from the earthquake in 2011.. but..

I fully believe in eternal security. I don't believe we can leave God.. I don't believe God will leave me.

I am just trying to understand.. for the calvinist how they never actually call for salvation.. (even though they believe in eternal security)..

I believe someone does call for salvation to start with.. by the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

But don't worry about me believing salvation can be lossed... I stopped believing that could happen about 10 years ago.


See the whole post I put.. I had.. 'I believe salvation is completely eternally secure' :)

:)
 
Jul 6, 2015
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#6
Hi DC--

Christchurch is going alright.. still taking a long time to repair from the earthquake in 2011.. but..

I fully believe in eternal security. I don't believe we can leave God.. I don't believe God will leave me.

I am just trying to understand.. for the calvinist how they never actually call for salvation.. (even though they believe in eternal security)..

I believe someone does call for salvation to start with.. by the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

But don't worry about me believing salvation can be lossed... I stopped believing that could happen about 10 years ago.


See the whole post I put.. I had.. 'I believe salvation is completely eternally secure' :)

:)
This wouldn't even be a question if we understand how salvation works...

The 'big lie' is that we have until we die in this world to decide, and after that it's over. If you still have a choice at the final resurrection (which you do), then this whole 'lose it or keep it' thing is a total moot point.

God is a much better father than to judge his children eternally based upon whether Satan was able to deceive them. And the Bible says as much.
 
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sparkman

Guest
#7
This guy has been taught by Armstrongites who claim that everyone except them are deceived, including other Christians who don't accept their cult's teachings.

They believe that there's going to be a third resurrection where the vast majority of people are going to receive salvation...everyone except for them. They are in the first resurrection and will be god beings in the resurrection.

He's been here under multiple handles before and has been banned. He's got 3 that I know of right now.

This wouldn't even be a question if we understand how salvation works...

The 'big lie' is that we have until we die in this world to decide, and after that it's over. If you still have a choice at the final resurrection (which you do), then this whole 'lose it or keep it' thing is a total moot point.

God is a much better father than to judge his children eternally based upon whether Satan was able to deceive them. And the Bible says as much.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
#8
Hi DC--

Christchurch is going alright.. still taking a long time to repair from the earthquake in 2011.. but..

I fully believe in eternal security. I don't believe we can leave God.. I don't believe God will leave me.

I am just trying to understand.. for the calvinist how they never actually call for salvation.. (even though they believe in eternal security)..

I believe someone does call for salvation to start with.. by the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

But don't worry about me believing salvation can be lossed... I stopped believing that could happen about 10 years ago.


See the whole post I put.. I had.. 'I believe salvation is completely eternally secure' :)

:)
HAHAH sorry I missed the past tense (had) hahaha...I thought I knew better but maybe still have a little Jet Lag.....hey from just west of Sydney :)
 
Jul 6, 2015
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#9
This guy has been taught by Armstrongites who claim that everyone except them are deceived, including other Christians who don't accept their cult's teachings.

They believe that there's going to be a third resurrection where the vast majority of people are going to receive salvation...everyone except for them. They are in the first resurrection and will be god beings in the resurrection.

He's been here under multiple handles before and has been banned. He's got 3 that I know of right now.
I have no idea of who the armstrongites are, there are quite clearly 2 resurrections not 3, and obviously all of Christianity is deceived or else they wouldn't be arguing so much.
 
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sparkman

Guest
#10
I have no idea of who the armstrongites are, there are quite clearly 2 resurrections not 3, and obviously all of Christianity is deceived or else they wouldn't be arguing so much.
Ah ok..but you're proposing a post-mortem salvation opportunity, which is not biblical.
 
S

sparkman

Guest
#11
I have no idea of who the armstrongites are, there are quite clearly 2 resurrections not 3, and obviously all of Christianity is deceived or else they wouldn't be arguing so much.

Hebrews 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
 
Jul 6, 2015
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#12
Ah ok..but you're proposing a post-mortem salvation opportunity, which is not biblical.
I quoted verses in the other thread, I'd be happy to discuss them with you. I would say, though, that post-mortem opportunities of any kind are unbiblical, though. You're either alive or dead, and if you're dead then...
[Psalm 146:4 NKJV] His spirit departs, he returns to his earth; In that very day his plans perish.
[Ecclesiastes 9:5 NKJV] For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.
 
S

sparkman

Guest
#13
OK..it's too late to discuss wonky theology but I'm guessing you believe in soul sleep and annihilationism..true or false?

I quoted verses in the other thread, I'd be happy to discuss them with you. I would say, though, that post-mortem opportunities of any kind are unbiblical, though. You're either alive or dead, and if you're dead then...
[Psalm 146:4 NKJV] His spirit departs, he returns to his earth; In that very day his plans perish.
[Ecclesiastes 9:5 NKJV] For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.
 
Jul 6, 2015
59
0
0
#14
Hebrews 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
Yes, as the angel said to Daniel,
[Daniel 12:13 NKJV] "But you, go [your way] till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days."
 
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sparkman

Guest
#15
I quoted verses in the other thread, I'd be happy to discuss them with you. I would say, though, that post-mortem opportunities of any kind are unbiblical, though. You're either alive or dead, and if you're dead then...
[Psalm 146:4 NKJV] His spirit departs, he returns to his earth; In that very day his plans perish.
[Ecclesiastes 9:5 NKJV] For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.
By the way I'd caution you with using Ecclesiastes 9:5 to prove doctrine in that regard. Ecclesiastes was written by Solomon in a backslidden state. Some of the remarks he made reflected that backslidden state. For instance, he made remarks about everything being useless, and if a person took that as their theology, they'd be really messed up.

However that's where soul sleep people go to prove their "point".

By the way with regards to soul sleep or annihilationism, I could see either one being supported biblically, but they are not bulletproof arguments. I would say that annihilationism could be supported more effectively than soul sleep.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
113
#16
Now I don't want this to be an OSAS or not debate but I do want to address something that is quite a big difference between OSAS believers.

It is the starting point at salvation.

The calvinist may believe in OSAS but never actual call for salvation... how is this biblical?

Is not the biblical example.. BELIEVE in Jesus Christ.. call for salvation.. and then you are eternally saved?

The person is of course convicted by the Holy Spirit first.. but I do not believe.. nor do I believe the bible teaches that this is irresistable.

If Romans 10-- is NOT an act of free will to call for salvation from Jesus to be eternally saved... then what is it?



I am neither Calvinist nor Armenian.. I believe the bible teaches that salvation IS called for.. by free will after being convicted by the Holy Spirit.

I also believe contrary to the armenian that this is completely eternally secure.

Anyway..


I don't know where in the bible the idea is that a person cannot actually call for salvation in the first place. Surely the likes of Romans chapter 10 are a direct contradiction to that teaching.
What do you mean by call for salvation?

Do you mean ask?
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
2,987
1,014
113
New Zealand
#17
What do you mean by call for salvation?

Do you mean ask?
I mean- the Holy Spirit convicts someone.. they are feeling the conviction.. they can then either respond and call for rescue.. ask for salvation.. or resist and remain unsaved.

Not a work on the part of the person being convicted.. but a response to the conviction.. the 'yes!' Lord save me.

Romans chapter 10 in other words :)

'Believe' 'Confess with thy mouth'
 
Jul 6, 2015
59
0
0
#18
By the way I'd caution you with using Ecclesiastes 9:5 to prove doctrine in that regard. Ecclesiastes was written by Solomon in a backslidden state. Some of the remarks he made reflected that backslidden state. For instance, he made remarks about everything being useless, and if a person took that as their theology, they'd be really messed up.

However that's where soul sleep people go to prove their "point".

By the way with regards to soul sleep or annihilationism, I could see either one being supported biblically, but they are not bulletproof arguments. I would say that annihilationism could be supported more effectively than soul sleep.
Yeah, Solomon was pretty screwed up while he wrote that - no doubt. Suffice to say, if you are 'no more', there isn't much opportunity for choice there. I always thought soul sleep was a mystical way of putting it. God describes resurrection in Ezekiel pretty clearly - dead bones are dead bones, they aren't people again until God breaths into them as He did Adam.
 
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sparkman

Guest
#19
Yeah, Solomon was pretty screwed up while he wrote that - no doubt. Suffice to say, if you are 'no more', there isn't much opportunity for choice there. I always thought soul sleep was a mystical way of putting it. God describes resurrection in Ezekiel pretty clearly - dead bones are dead bones, they aren't people again until God breaths into them as He did Adam.
With regards to soul sleep, a counterargument would be this verse:

2 Cor 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Note that this cannot be referring to the resurrection, as the spirit will be joined to the body, and the body will be glorified.

By the way, I am not saying that soul sleep is incorrect..I could mount an argument on either side, and Martin Luther held the position of soul sleep.
 
G

Gr8grace

Guest
#20
Now I don't want this to be an OSAS or not debate but I do want to address something that is quite a big difference between OSAS believers.

It is the starting point at salvation.

The calvinist may believe in OSAS but never actual call for salvation... how is this biblical?

Is not the biblical example.. BELIEVE in Jesus Christ.. call for salvation.. and then you are eternally saved?

The person is of course convicted by the Holy Spirit first.. but I do not believe.. nor do I believe the bible teaches that this is irresistable.

If Romans 10-- is NOT an act of free will to call for salvation from Jesus to be eternally saved... then what is it?



I am neither Calvinist nor Armenian.. I believe the bible teaches that salvation IS called for.. by free will after being convicted by the Holy Spirit.

I also believe contrary to the armenian that this is completely eternally secure.

Anyway..


I don't know where in the bible the idea is that a person cannot actually call for salvation in the first place. Surely the likes of Romans chapter 10 are a direct contradiction to that teaching.
I am with you Sir.

All men can be saved. Christ ripped our veil down. and we no longer know men as in the flesh. We know men as one whom Christ died for.

And the person who FREELY believes on Christ is eternally secure. They are not their own and have been bought with a price.

I honestly can't imagine looking at a person and saying in my heart," Did Christ die for you or not?"