Acts 8:12-17; Acts 10:43-47; Romans 8:9

mailmandan · Jul 9, 2015

I was in a discussion with someone who insists on altering the terms "the gift of the Holy Spirit" in Acts 10:45 and "received the Holy Spirit" in Acts 10:47 to merely received a miraculous gift, the spiritual gift of tongues, but not the indwelling Holy Spirit. He argues that from my view, "received the Holy Spirit" (Acts 10:47) amounts to these Samaritan believers in Acts 8:16-17 remaining lost when they believed and not saved until after the apostles laid hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit. He argues this point from Romans 8:9 - But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit,if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Any thoughts? I have some thoughts.

KennethC · Jul 9, 2015

Well first the passage in Acts 10:47 is about keeping the command to be water baptized in the name of the Lord.

The reason those who are being mentioned here had received the Holy Spirit before the water baptism was because the Apostles/Jewish disciples were arguing among themselves on rather the Gentiles should be allowed to receive the gift of salvation through faith in Christ just as them.

The Lord baptized them with the Holy Spirit to show those who were in disagreement that Gentiles do have the right to salvation to.

This is not the standard though on how the Holy Spirit is received as Apostle Peter shows the order in which one is to take to receive the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38. There he clearly says after faith has been established from hearing the word, then we are to repent of our sins and get baptized (H2O) in His name, then we will receive the Holy Spirit.

Notice how Acts 5:32 says the Holy Spirit is given to those who obey, obey what you may ask, well Peter gives us the answer there in Acts 2:38 of repenting and getting baptized.

mailmandan · Jul 10, 2015

KennethC said:

Peter stated in Acts 10:43 that whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. These Gentiles believed in Him, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47). In Acts 11:17, we read they received the same gift (Holy Spirit) WHEN THEY BELIEVED ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST (compare with Acts 16:31) and this was established BEFORE water baptism. Peter referred to this as repentance unto life (vs. 18).

This is why they spoke in tongues to demonstrate that they have received the gift of the Holy Spirit and that God has accepted these Gentiles into the body of Christ BEFORE water baptism.

Yet they believed in Him, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues and were saved BEFORE water baptism.

Do you attend the church of Christ? In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. If your argument is true, then it should be consistently taught throughout scripture. Right? Yet, that is not the case as I will show you.

Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" *What happened to baptism in verse 43?

Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved - which was established BEFORE water baptism) who was I that I could withstand God?" 18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 15:8 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. *What happened to baptism?

Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31). *Perfect Harmony*

*Also notice in Ephesians 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation - having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise. *What happened to baptism?

Wait minute, faith first established then "after" that repent to receive the remission of sins? We actually repent before saving faith in Christ is established. Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, (faith not established before repentance) but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. *Now faith is established after repentance. Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel. *Notice the order. It's not believe the gospel then afterwards repent. Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. *Notice the order.

In Acts 2:36-37, their faith/belief at that point was only "mental assent" that Jesus was the Messiah and that they were guilty of crucifying Him. Saving faith was not established yet. They still needed to trust exclusively in Christ for salvation and this is why they still needed to repent and believe the gospel/believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved. Baptism symbolizes what repentance/faith secures. The remission of sins is signified, yet not procured in the waters of baptism.

Those who repent and believe the gospel have obeyed Him. Choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes. Getting water baptized "after we have been saved through faith" is an act of obedience, a work (along with other works of righteousness which are also acts of obedience that FOLLOW saving faith in Christ BUT we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done - Titus 3:5).

Elin · Jul 10, 2015

mailmandan said:

However, Peter refers to what they received, and manifested in the speaking of tongues, as the same as Peter received at the beginning (Ac 10:47, 11:15). The apostles received more than a miraculous gift at the beginning (Jn 20:22).

The Holy Spirit was not always given with manifestation at the time of his giving.

The Holy Spirit coming within and the Holy Spirit coming upon are not the same thing.
The former is indwelling, while the latter is miraculous manifestation of that indwelling.

The Spirit of God did dwell in those in Ac 8:16-17 when they believed and were baptized.
But the external manifestation in the miraculous speaking in tongues was not given until the apsotles laid their hands on them.

In Ac 8:16-17 the manifestation of the Holy Spirit was given after their baptism, by the laying on of hands.
In Ac 10:45-47, the manifestation of the Holy Spirit was given before their baptism, by faith only.

Acts is not a normative book, but a transitional book, as chp 15 also shows.

robinriley · Jul 10, 2015

(Robin)
Not that it's going to have much affect on this conversation, but I thought it noticable that your having ask the question, and referred to three verses, that the one from Romans was never subsequently discussed, nor even quoted ...

"Yet you, you be not in flesh, but in spirit, if-even [the] spirit of God, it dwells in you;
yet if any, to a spirit of [the] Anointed he holds not, this [one] he be not of Same." (~Robin)

***

8:9* Ὑμεῖς δὲ οὐκ ἐστὲ ἐν σαρκί, ἀλλʼ ἐν πνεύματι, εἴπερ πνεῦμα θεοῦ οἰκεῖ ἐν ὑμῖν. Εἰ δέ τις πνεῦμα χριστοῦ οὐκ ἔχει, οὗτος οὐκ ἔστιν αὐτοῦ. you {1473 P-2NP} yet {1161 CONJ} not {3756 PRT-N} you be {1510 V-PAI-2P} in {1722 PREP} unto a flesh {4561 N-DSF} but {0235 CONJ} in {1722 PREP} unto a spirit {4151 N-DSN} if-even {1512 COND} a spirit {4151 N-NSN} of God {2316 N-GSM} it dwells {3611 V-PAI-3S} in {1722 PREP} unto you {1473 P-2DP} if {1487 COND} yet {1161 CONJ} any [one] {5100 X-NSM} to a spirit {4151 N-ASN} of Anointed/ of Christ {5547 N-GSM} not {3756 PRT-N} he holds {2192 V-PAI-3S} this [one] {3778 D-NSM} not {3756 PRT-N} he be {1510 V-PAI-3S} of same [One] {0846 P-GSM}

mailmandan · Jul 11, 2015

Elin said:

All believers receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:17; Ephesians 1:13) but not all believers receive the spiritual gift of tongues. This person that I was in a conversation with was trying to imply that these Gentiles in Acts 10 had merely received the gift of tongues "which is only for the body of Christ" - 1 Corinthians 12 (apart from receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit) in a vain effort to prove that these Gentiles were not saved until after they were water baptized. He even used the ludicrous argument that Balaam's donkey spoke in tongues but was not saved to try and support his argument from Acts 10.

Believers were saved prior to receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit (sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit) in John 7:38-39 and the same can be said of these Samaritan believers in this unique situation in Acts 8. Receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit was delayed until the apostles laid their hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:17). Exception, not the rule (Acts 10:43-47; Ephesians 1:13). Because of the animosity that existed between Jews and Samaritans, it was essential for the Samaritans to receive the Spirit in the presence of the leaders of the Jerusalem church for the purpose of maintaining a unified church. They didn't have the indwelling Holy Spirit in John 3:16 when Jesus spoke these words, yet these believers were still saved. The Samaritans believed and were baptized (Acts 8:12), but did not receive the indwelling Holy Spirit until the apostles laid hands on them (Acts 8:17), but were still saved when they believed, which is in harmony with John 3:16 and Acts 10:43.

Both Acts 8:17 and Acts 10:47 say receive/received the Holy Spirit.

I agree that Acts is a transitional book. In regards to my discussion with that person who attends the church of Christ, he argues that from my view, "received the Holy Spirit" (Acts 10:47) amounts to these Samaritan believers in Acts 8:16-17 remained lost when they believed and were not saved until after the apostles laid hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit. He argues this point from Romans 8:9 - But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Yet he fails to understand that this is the earliest stages of the church. Paul is still Saul and has not yet been converted, much less appointed as an apostle to the Gentiles to declare this statement in Romans 8:9. Believers were saved prior to receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit (sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit) - John 3:15,16,18 prior to Pentecost - John 7:38-39. This man's ultimate goal is to try and prove that we are not saved UNTIL we are water baptized. That's why Acts 10:43-47 and Acts 11:17,18 remain his achilles heel.

jb · Jul 11, 2015

mailmandan said:

I was in a discussion with someone who insists on altering the terms "the gift of the Holy Spirit" in Acts 10:45 and "received the Holy Spirit" in Acts 10:47 to merely received a miraculous gift, the spiritual gift of tongues, but not the indwelling Holy Spirit. He argues that from my view, "received the Holy Spirit" (Acts 10:47) amounts to these Samaritan believers in Acts 8:16-17 remaining lost when they believed and not saved until after the apostles laid hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit. He argues this point from Romans 8:9 - But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit,if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Any thoughts? I have some thoughts.

For those interested you might want to have a look at This...

Yahweh Shalom

mailmandan · Jul 11, 2015

jb said:

1 Corinthians 12:13 says - For by one Spirit we were ALL baptized into one body (Spirit baptized into the body of Christ) whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have ALL been made to drink into one Spirit.

Certain Pentecostal groups seem to confuse Spirit baptism with being filled with the Holy Spirit and manifesting spiritual gifts.

jb · Jul 11, 2015

mailmandan said:

Absolutely NO confusion on my behalf, dear boy!

MarcR · Jul 11, 2015

mailmandan said:

IMO, the someone who insists on altering terms has no basis for his position.

The three passages all speak of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

In Ac 10:43-47, IMO, mention is made of the manifestation of known tongues only because convincing evidence was necessary to persuade Jewish believers that Gentiles had indeed received the Holy Spirit.

Elin · Jul 11, 2015

mailmandan said:

Can spiritually powerless unregenerate man believe (Ro 8:7-9, 5:6)?
Must he not be regenerated (born again) of the Holy Spirit to believe (Jn 3:3)?

What those in Jn 7:39 had not yet received was that abundant outpouring of the Holy Spirit promised in Joel 2:28 and fulfilled in Ac 2, with a manifestation by tongues. But they did have the indwelling Holy Spirit.

For the Holy Spirit was in the OT prophets and saints (Nu 27:18; Dt 34:9; Lk 1:15, 41, 67; cf Nu 11:25; Jdg 3:10, 14:6) in abundance, like he was in the apostles after Pentecost as manifested by tongues, compared to before Pentecost when they had only the first fruits of the Spirit and no tongues. The apostles and believers before Pentecost were like Israel in general; after Pentecost they were like the prophets and saints of old in their abundance of the Holy Spirit.

However, in harmony with Jn 3:3; Ro 8:7-9, 5:6, they did have the first fruits of the Holy Spirit, which abundant outpouring was later given as visible proof in a manifestation by tongues.

However, the spiritual reality of Ro 8:7-9, 5:6 didn't come into existence when Paul wrote of it.
It has existed since Adam--the unregenerate are spiritually powerless and cannot believe (Ro 8:8).
Paul simply revealed what has always been since Adam.

Your friend concludes, from believers not receiving the abundant outpouring of the Holy Spirit manifested by tongues, that they did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit and, therefore, were not saved. He argues correctly from Ro 8:7-9.

You conclude, from believers not receiving the abundant outpouring of the Holy Spirit manifested by tongues, that they did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit but were saved anyway.
You do not argue correctly from Ro 8:7-9.

And you both do not argue correctly regarding the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in Ac 8:16-17.
You were wise to suspect that something was amiss somewhere--for it was amiss in both arguments.

Both arguments are contrary to Jn 3:36, 5:24, 6:47: "He who believes has eternal life (Holy Spirit life),"
which he also will have in everlasting eternity.

The believers in Jn 7 and Ac 8 did have the indwelling Holy Spirit, they just did not yet have that abundant outpouring manifested by tongues for a witness.

However, there is no eternal life (salvation) without the indwelling Holy Spirit (Ro 8:9).

mailmandan · Jul 12, 2015

Elin said:

Unless the Father draws us (John 6:44) and enables us (John 6:65) unregenerate man would not come to believe all by himself, but that does not mean that regeneration precedes man choosing to believe. Faith is the response of a sinner, enlightened and convicted by the Holy Spirit who employs the message of the gospel. This work is essential to and prior to the sinner coming to the place where he may respond in faith--believe--the gospel. That saving faith necessarily precedes regeneration.

John 7:39 does not say for the gift of tongues was not yet given, but "the Spirit was not yet given." In addition to that, the gift of tongues may have been manifested, but not in every case, not all speak in tongues (1 Corinthians 12:30). Where does the Bible say that believers received the indwelling Holy Spirit/were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise prior to Pentecost?

In the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit was given selectively and temporarily to indwell certainly individuals for special ministries. It was not universal nor was it permanent, like we see in Acts 10:44-47; 11:17; Ephesians 1:13; 4:30).

So you are saying that prior to Pentecost and after Pentecost, believers received the indwelling Holy Spirit/were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise and John 7:39 merely means they have not received the gift of tongues yet?

Say what?

He is arguing this from Acts 10:43-47 and is trying to use Romans 8:7-9 against me, but it didn't work. He is arguing that these Gentiles received the outpouring of the Holy Spirit manifested by tongues in Acts 10:44-47 but were not yet indwelled by the Holy Spirit and were still lost until they were water baptized. I'm not hearing you say they were not yet indwelled yet in Acts 10:44-47. You have them indwelled before Pentecost.

Prior to Jesus being glorified, believers had not yet received the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 7:39) were not yet sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13) but were saved anyway because they believe (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26).

Prior to believers receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit I do (John 7:39).

Receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit was delayed until the apostles laid their hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:17). Exception, not the rule (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; Ephesians 1:13). Acts 8:17 simply says they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. Acts 11:17 also simply says they received the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38 simply says the gift of the Holy Spirit and Acts 10:45 simply says the gift of the Holy Spirit yet certain people seem determined to re-define terms in order to accommodate their theology. His agenda for doing so was to support that we are not saved until water baptism. Your agenda seems to support that prior to receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit, we already have received the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, in HIS argument AND in YOUR argument.

He who believes has eternal life and John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Is that what it says in John 7:39? NO. Show me in scripture where ALL believers are baptized by one Spirit into one body/receive the gift of the Holy Spirit/are indwelled by the Holy Spirit/are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise PRIOR TO PENTECOST.

That is true in this dispensation. Yet believers were still saved prior to this dispensation - "the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. - John 7:39

mailmandan · Jul 12, 2015

jb said:

Whatever you say. LOL!

mailmandan · Jul 12, 2015

MarcR said:

IMO, the someone who insists on altering terms has no basis for his position.

The three passages all speak of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

In Ac 10:43-47, IMO, mention is made of the manifestation of known tongues only because convincing evidence was necessary to persuade Jewish believers that Gentiles had indeed received the Holy Spirit.

Amen brother! Good post.

Elin · Jul 12, 2015

mailmandan said:

Not quite. . .

You are much too informed to set the Scriptures against themselves, Jn 7:39 against Jn 20:22;
Ro 8:7-9; 1Co 2:14.

You are not allowing for the difference between the indwelling Holy Spirit (Jn 20:22) and the effusive outpouring of the Spirit, with manifestation in tongues, prophesied in Joel 2:28 and fulfilled in Ac 2 at Pentecost.
The apostles were not without the Spirit prior to Ac 2 (Jn 20:22).

Nor can the unregenerate spiritually powerless (Ro 8:7-9) be convicted of sin (1Co 2:14).
They must be regenerate to receive anything from the Holy Spirit.

peacefulbeliever · Jul 12, 2015

mailmandan said:

I see "Spirit baptism"; immersed in/by the Spirit the same as being "filled" with the holy Spirit. Any believer has the ability to manifest the Spirit (1 Cor. 12:7). There are some that believe unless you manifest tongues you are not born again of the Spirit, i.e. the Spirit does not dwell in you, i.e. you have not been filled with the Spirit, i.e. you have been baptized/immersed with holy Spirit.

mailmandan · Jul 13, 2015

Elin said:

I'm not setting John 7:39 against John 20:22. Although it has been argued that "receive the Holy Spirit" in John 20:22 is best understood as "receive a foretaste of what would happen when the Holy Spirit was given at Pentecost," Jesus breathed on "His disciples" and said receive the Holy Spirit, NOT on ALL believers prior to Pentecost. Another exception, not the rule. John 20:22 does not negate John 7:39 - for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Those in the flesh/the natural man are lost unbelievers. Romans 8:9 is true after the Holy Spirit has been given. How can the Holy Spirit dwell in those prior to the Holy Spirit being given? - John 7:39. We must rightly divide the word of truth.

Joel 2:28 says - "And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions. This prophecy isn't all about tongues. You said the "apostles" were not without the Spirit prior to Acts 2 yet what about EVERYONE ELSE? - John 7:39.

John 16:8 - And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment. 1 Thessalonians 1:5 - For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake. As I mentioned before unless the Father draws us (John 6:44) and enables us (John 6:65) we would not come to saving faith in Christ all by ourselves but "convict, draw, enable" does not equate to regeneration. Faith precedes regeneration. Otherwise, we have God fatalistically determining who will and won't be saved. How soon does regeneration take place after faith? How long does it take for a light to come on after you flip the switch?

They must be regenerate to receive spiritual gifts from the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12) but we must first believe to receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:17; Ephesians 1:13) and become regenerate.

mailmandan · Jul 13, 2015

peacefulbeliever said:

I see a difference between being indwell by the Holy Spirit and being filled with the Holy Spirit. Indwelling is a living presence associated with a home, abode, or even temple.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

Being "filled" is more quantitative and has to do with capacity and abundance.

Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit. It's a choice. Paul was addressing believers here, those who were already indwelled by the Holy Spirit.

filled = plēroō = 1) to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full, 1a) to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally, 2) to render full, i.e. to complete - Thayer

Notice in Acts 4:8-12 that Peter was said to be "filled" with the Holy Spirit when he spoke those words. Yet in Galatians 2:11-15, Peter was obviously not filled with the Holy Spirit (though he was still indwelled by the Holy Spirit) when he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision and the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, when they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel. Paul even had to rebuke Peter.

In regards to 1 Corinthians 12:7 - But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all, vs. 11 - But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills. Vs. 29 - yet NOT ALL are apostles, prophets, teachers, workers of miracles, have gifts of healing or speak with tongues. I know that certain Pentecostal groups believe that unless you manifest the spiritual gift of tongues you are not saved. I disagree with them. Certain Pentecostal groups seem to confuse Spirit baptism - 1 Corinthians 12:13 (as if it happens later down the road, after conversion) with being filled with the Holy Spirit and manifesting spiritual gifts.

mailmandan · Jul 20, 2015

I was expecting SeaBass to jump in this thread and put in his two cents, but it looks like he may have been banned from Christian Chat.

Elin · Jul 20, 2015

mailmandan said:

He was not yet given in the full effusion of Pentecost to all believers, but he had been given to the apostles in Jn 20:22

Faith is a gift, not of our own doing (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3), as is repentance (2Ti 2:25; Ac 11:18, 5:31) and righteousness (Ro 5:17).

Acts 8:12-17; Acts 10:43-47; Romans 8:9

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