Why I'm neither Catholic nor Protestant, but Baptist

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Viligant_Warrior

Guest
#1
Obviously, this is in response to the thread "Do you know why you are a Protestant?" That has degenerated into a dual bashing of viewpoints, whereas the original question prompted me to respond only once, to say, "I'm neither. I'm a Baptist." Meant to deflect the animosity that was developing on that thread, it instead went unnoticed. So, I'm going to lay out my case for rejecting both ideologies.

Baptists are not Protestants but hold tenaciously to the original precepts and practices of Christ and the apostles. Baptists believe the pure Word of God to be sufficient authority on all matters. Baptists reject all human religious traditions and practices that have originated since the time of the apostles. Full historical data immediately refutes the view that there was only one religious group -- the Roman Catholic church -- until the time of Martin Luther. Anyone who claims this simply has not done his homework.

Baptists make no effort to trace a historical succession back to the age of the Apostles. Their only claim is that at every age in church history there have been groups that have held to the same doctrines that Baptists hold today. These groups may or may not have been connected and they have been known by various names.

There were the Montanists (150 A.D.), the Novatians (240 A.D.), Donatists (305 A.D.), Albigenses (1022 A.D.), Waldensians (1170 A.D.), and the name Anabaptists came into prominence just before the time of the Protestant Reformation. In fact, the first use of a form of the Baptist name may be found in a response to the Diet of Speier in 1529, taking action against the Turks and the Lutheran groups who questioned the doctrines of the Catholic Church.

Certain Lutheran princes appeared before this Roman Catholic Diet with a formal written protest against those matters in which the Diet went contrary to the Christian faith as they understood it. This protest was signed by Elector John of Saxony, Margrave George of Brandenburg, Dukes Ernest and Francis of Braunschweig-Luneburg, Landgrave Philip of Hesse, Prince Wolfgang of Anhalt and the representatives of fourteen imperial cities.

Once the Diet's edicts were published, a formal letter of protest by these government authorities was also issued to counter the Church's pronouncement, but they made it clear the did not speak for Baptists. n their written statement, "All Anabaptists and rebaptized persons, male or female, of mature age, shall be judged and brought from natural life to death, by fire, or sword or otherwise, as may benefit the persons, without preceding trial by spiritual judges." The Baptists then did not share in this protest and consequently cannot bear the name "Protestant."

Catholic prelate Stanislaus Hosius spoke of the history of the Baptist movement predating the Lutheran separation by centuries. Pope Paul IV designated Cardinal Hosius as one of the three papal presidents of the famous Council of Trent. Hosius carried on vigorously the work of the counter-reformation. If anyone in post-reformation times knew the doctrines and history of non-Catholic groups, it was Hosius. Cardinal Hosius wrote, "Were it not that the Baptists have been grievously tormented and cut off with the knife during the past 1,200 years, they would swarm in greater number than all the Reformers"

It is also evident that the Baptists were not Protestants because they were fiercely persecuted by the Protestant Reformers and their followers. Uncounted thousands of them lost their goods, their lands, and their lives in these persecutions. Konred Grebel died in prison in 1526. Felix Manz was drowned by the authorities at Zurich in 1527. Noted Baptist leader Baithauser Hubmaier was burned alive at the stake in Vienna March 10, 1528. Three days later his wife was drowned by being thrown over the Danube bridge with a stone tied to her neck. The facts abundantly attest that historically Baptists are not Protestants.

While modern Protestant churches have largely abandoned Catholic doctrine regarding infant baptism, an Earthly head of the church, and other Catholic teachings that Luther and others brought out of the Church with them, Baptists have never believed those things. And there are numerous remnants of Catholic doctrine still sprinkled among Protest denominations.

Doctrinally, Baptists differ even from the modern Lutherian teachings.

  • God's Word alone is sufficient for faith and practice. We read "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine..." (II Timothy 3:16). Various Protestant denominations have creeds, catechisms and assorted doctrinal standards.
  • Baptists believe that Christ and only Christ is the Head of the Church even as the Scripture says, "Christ is the head of the church" (Ephesians 5:23). There is no man who has the oversight of Baptist churches.
  • Baptists believe in a free church in a free state. Christ plainly taught that the state and the church each had its own realm when he said, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things which are God's" (Matthew 22:21 ). While most American churches of Protestant origin have also adopted that view, many European and South American Protestant churches align themselves as a sanctioned state church.
  • Baptists believe strongly in individual accountability to God because the Scriptures clearly teach that "every one of us shall give account of himself to God" (Romans 14:12). Again, most American Protestant denominations have slowly adopted this view, but Luther, Calvin, and others did not, and many European and South American Protestant churches continue to practice formal confession as do Catholics.
  • Baptist people furthermore have always held to believers' baptism. None of the Protestant Reformers held this Bible teaching, and sprinkling rather than immersion is practiced by those churches today.
  • Baptists, on the basis of Scripture, have always held to a regenerate church membership; that is, a membership that is made up only of people who give a credible profession of faith in Christ. There is no automatic or formalistic membership in Baptist churches today, but there is in both Protestant and Catholic churches.
From a practical point of view, we have little in common with Protestants.

  • The Protestant groups look to some human being as their founder, often even taking their name from a man: Luther, Calvin, Knox, Wesley. Here is a historical question worthy of serious investigation: Who was the Baptist founder? It is impossible to find any one man who gave rise to Baptist churches.
  • The creed of Baptists is not the Augsburg Confession, the Canons of Dort, or the Westminster Confession, but the simple Word of God.

  • Baptists have never been linked with Protestants and have never been identified with the Roman Catholic Church. Through the years before and after the Reformation, they have maintained their identity and been faithful to the Scriptures. Real Baptists hold to the plain teaching of Christ and the Apostles. For these God-given doctrines they have been willing to die.
At the time of the Reformation, Baptists were considered by both Protestants and Catholics to be heretics. In Rottenburg in Reformation times there were 900 executions of Baptists in less than ten years. These deaths were often vicious and cruel. The execution of Baptist believer Michael Sateler in 1527 included hanging, having his tongue cut out, having his flesh burned with hot tongs, and then his body hung on the city gate as a warning to other Baptists. His wife and children were drowned, and many other men were beheaded for their Baptist faith ...

... By Protestants following Luther.

No, I am not a Protestant, not that I accuse any today of being as those Protestants were, just as I do not accuse Calvinists of being the murderous John Calvin. I am proudly, fundamentally, and always a Christian who calls himself a Baptist, Southern variety.
 
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Galahad

Guest
#2
I am a Christian. Period. Well, I try to be.
 
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didymos

Guest
#3
I believe Michael Sateler was killed by catholics. The socalled radical anabaptists gave baptists a bad reputation for centuries to come. Those were true anarchists, not the kind of people you'd want to relate to. It's understandable such individuals were persecuted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnster_Rebellion. Most mennonites and baptists see my fellow countryman Menno Simons as the founding father of their movement though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menno_Simons I'm not a baptist myself, and don't agree with their overall theology, but that doesn't keep me from regarding them as fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,704
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#4
Now VW, are you Primitive, Southern, FreeWill, Reformed, First, American, Landmark Baptist etc? :)
...oh...Southern, I found it.
 
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Gr8grace

Guest
#6
This is just my opinion and pure speculation on my part.

I believe there have always been doctrinal churches around apart from any denomination. You don't hear about them, they have never made the news,they have never been popular,never had big names or a specific man of notary. They have always just been around on the periphery of all the "popular" christian world.

When the believer gets sick of reformed theology or Arminian theology and all the denomination garbage......theres a little humble,doctrinal church associated with no one just on the periphery for us. they have always been there, just chugging along.

I think that these little churches with no name are the true denomination.
 
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atwhatcost

Guest
#7
Now VW, are you Primitive, Southern, FreeWill, Reformed, First, American, Landmark Baptist etc? :)
...oh...Southern, I found it.
When I was in grade school, one of my friends told me she wasn't Catholic. (No memory of what she was other than some denomination of Christianity.) I was shocked and horrified that she was going to hell. She was shocked and horrified that I was going to hell, because I was Catholic. And then we went back to playing whatever we were playing.

In 1994, I met a fellow reformed Christian online in a Christian chat room. We became friends. We were great friends for a couple of years, before I found out she was Baptist in that chatroom. I really am as naive as I keep saying, so I blurted out, "You can't be Baptists AND reformed." (Others blurted out that she couldn't be a Christian and Baptist. Others blurted out she couldn't be a Calvinist and be a Christian. Others simply didn't like her, because she was as straight forward as I am on her opinions. lol)

She listed the wide variety of Baptists, like you just did. I was shocked. (At least I wasn't horrified. lol)

Now I've read VW's history of Baptists. I'm backed to shocked.

Hey, VW? If the Baptists never left the roots, then why are there so many varieties? I do understand you're Baptist and proud of that. I'm reformed and proud of that. More importantly, I'm proud you're my bro.

Does that work for you?
 
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kaylagrl

Guest
#8
Now VW, are you Primitive, Southern, FreeWill, Reformed, First, American, Landmark Baptist etc? :)
...oh...Southern, I found it.

Ahhh the "we four and no more" crowd. Been to those churches. Im Pentecostal in background.I traveled and sang for 20yrs though and Ive sung in Baptist {all versions},Wesleyan,Nazarene,Catholic,United,Non Denominational Pentecostal and about everything in between.And what I have found is we have more in common than we think we do.I was accepted in all these churches though we had various different beliefs.We worshiped together,prayed and fellow-shipped together. Its sad to see how people react to each other in here. As Howard Goodman,of the Happy Goodmans {only old timers would know him} said one time "Im letting more people into heaven these days".
 
Dec 1, 2014
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#9
Vigilant Warrior...I too was brought up a baptist minister's son, so I understand your study and conclusions. However, due to mom being extremely legalistic and NO gray areas, I presently am a member of a local pentacostal country church. It does not keep a clock on the back wall of the santuary to remind the preacher when Noon is near. A bulletin is not needed to dictate the order of service. Women do participate in all functions of the church body. THere is plenty of room for the Holy Spirit to be part of the worship service. We sing praise songs along with the classic old hymns. When someone shouts out 'AMEN" or "PRAISE GOD!", nobody turns around and glares.
In all my years of being a southern baptist, I never ever heard a sermon on the gifts of the spirit, but plenty of sermons on the 'fruits of the spirit". All visitors and families in my church are invited to participate in the LORD's Supper. I never saw that happen in my old baptist church! lol This is NOT ridicule, this is simple observation.
I was discouraged to never dance, even at weddings, for dancing is a SIN. I was not allowed to attend my own prom. My dad was asked to pray over the food at my daughter's wedding. HE leaned over and informed me that he can't, because someone put an iced champaigne bucket as part of the decor. He told me that baptists don't pray over any food table that has alcohol on it. I said the blessing of the food and event.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
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#10
i'm not baptist either.

i love Jesus & my faith is in Him. i don't care to add anything to that. :)

isn't it written, something about not being an 'Apollos-ite' or a 'Paul-ite' or an '_____-ite' ?

this is like that whole Calvin thing again; i had no idea what 'Calvanism' was and didn't really want to know, for fear i'd get categorized by some other name than Christ. it became sort of unavoidable to learn though, and now i have to spend energy denying that i'm a 'Calvin-ite' -- i just happen to believe much of the same truth that he believes. :p

so yeah, i'm probably baptist, catholic, protestant, charismatic and whatever else too in some measure. but please don't call me any​ of that! :D
 
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KennethC

Guest
#11
Now VW, are you Primitive, Southern, FreeWill, Reformed, First, American, Landmark Baptist etc? :)
...oh...Southern, I found it.

Yes exactly you nailed it !!!

I was brought up in a Baptist upbringing myself, and also was in the Catholic church for 5 years then left that church.
Returned to being Baptist for a couple years, but now am just plain Christian that belongs to no denomination, so in essence I am Non-Denominational.

Anyway yes it matters what branch of Baptist one belongs to because some of them do not stick to the scriptures, and run their churches in a snobbish manner. For I know some of them that are come as you are to service, then others I have seen turn you away if you are a man and are not in a suit and tie or a woman who is not wearing a long dress.

This is why I have always said be careful with supporting every church that says it is part of your denominations, because some of them are not run properly or follow the word God completely.
 

Utah

Banned
Dec 1, 2014
9,701
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#12
I responded to the Protestant thread and found my words to be hurtful to MWC68, but he is gracious and I'm a better man because of his grace. With that, I'm sitting this one out. :)
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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#13
Most protestants consider Baptists to be protestants. Actually anything that's not Jewish or RCC or eastern occult is considered protestant.

As long as I am one of the Lords children and a born again believer I could care less what kind of label you tag me with. I know the Shepherd and most importantly He knows me.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Jun 23, 2015
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#14
"Obviously, this is in response to the thread "Do you know why you are a Protestant?" That has degenerated into a dual bashing of viewpoints" IMHO that thread needs to go away. :eek:
What a train wreck..........
 

jsr1221

Senior Member
Jul 7, 2013
4,265
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#15
These threads are absolutely ridiculous. Protestant. Baptist. Calvinist. Non denominational... Does Jesus have a label next to Him? What ever happened to just being called a follower of Christ?
 
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Viligant_Warrior

Guest
#16
This is just my opinion and pure speculation on my part.

I believe there have always been doctrinal churches around apart from any denomination. You don't hear about them, they have never made the news,they have never been popular,never had big names or a specific man of notary. They have always just been around on the periphery of all the "popular" christian world.

When the believer gets sick of reformed theology or Arminian theology and all the denomination garbage......theres a little humble,doctrinal church associated with no one just on the periphery for us. they have always been there, just chugging along.

I think that these little churches with no name are the true denomination.
I 100% agree, Gr8, there are thousands of churches down through the ages that have adhered to the doctrines I mention, and as you can see in that third paragraph, I don't believe efforts to trace the Baptist tradition all the way back to Peter, Paul, and John are valid. But there have always been churches, denominations, movements -- whatever they might be called -- that have simply believed the Bible. The Baptists weren't first, but we were never considered by other, non-Catholic believers, to share their doctrinal differences with "Mother Church" either. Doesn't matter. We all got to the same place, regardless.
 
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atwhatcost

Guest
#17
This is just my opinion and pure speculation on my part.

I believe there have always been doctrinal churches around apart from any denomination. You don't hear about them, they have never made the news,they have never been popular,never had big names or a specific man of notary. They have always just been around on the periphery of all the "popular" christian world.

When the believer gets sick of reformed theology or Arminian theology and all the denomination garbage......theres a little humble,doctrinal church associated with no one just on the periphery for us. they have always been there, just chugging along.

I think that these little churches with no name are the true denomination.
Actually, when you get tired of fluctuating theories in your church, you are always free to go to a denominational church that, long ago, established their doctrines. I spent 20 years of my Christian life in nondenoms, and when I got tired of them changing their minds on their beliefs, I found a denom that rarely does, because they teach nothing but verse by verse in the Bible, instead of trends. I've spent equal amount of time there, fully satisfied with the doctrine. You'll get it, later. I hope. :D
 
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atwhatcost

Guest
#18
I see many ridiculous threads on here. I don't waste my time going to them to tell them they are ridiculous. After all, what's the difference if I'm still participating? Doesn't that make me ridiculous? (Silence from the peanut gallery. lol)
 

jsr1221

Senior Member
Jul 7, 2013
4,265
77
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#19
I see many ridiculous threads on here. I don't waste my time going to them to tell them they are ridiculous. After all, what's the difference if I'm still participating? Doesn't that make me ridiculous? (Silence from the peanut gallery. lol)
Maybe sometimes it takes someone outside to tell people that are involved in such threads they are acting ridiculous?
 
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Viligant_Warrior

Guest
#20
Hey, VW? If the Baptists never left the roots, then why are there so many varieties?
Good question. Can't answer it. Most Baptist denominations adhere pretty closely to the original tenets of the faith, from what I've been able to ascertain. Free Will tend to believe, though not across the board from church to church, that salvation can be lost. There are other quirks too, including those that get facetiously labeled "bapticostals" who embrace continuance of the miraculous gifts. But if you look at the mainstream Baptists, we all pretty much embrace the same doctrines, most important of which, to us, is local church autonomy and the word of God as final authority.

I do understand you're Baptist and proud of that. I'm reformed and proud of that. More importantly, I'm proud you're my bro.
I'm blessed to get to know people like you, too, AWC, and most of the others on CC&F. There are a lot of Reformed/Calvinist Baptists. In fact, it's a movement among SBCers. They call themselves the "Young, Restless, and Reformed." I believe most of what they believe, but cannot see biblically that they can support limited atonement and irresistible grace. But that's another thread.

Does that work for you?
Beyond a shadow of a doubt, dear friend, beyond a shadow of a doubt.