Exodus and God's "Laws"

[woopydalan]

Hello,

I have read these chapters regarding the laws God gives to Moses. Some of these laws seem reasonable, but other laws are completely vicious and vile.

With regard to the Hebrew Servants, in Exodus 21:20,

Ex. 21:20 (NIV)
If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property

So I guess slaveholders in the 1800s could biblically justify beating their slaves.

Another Sabbath law given by God,

Ex. 31:15 (NIV)
For six days, work is to be done, but on the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.

So working on Sunday is punishable by death in the Bible.

 

[purgedconscience]

Hello,

I have read these chapters regarding the laws God gives to Moses. Some of these laws seem reasonable, but other laws are completely vicious and vile.

With regard to the Hebrew Servants, in Exodus 21:20,

Ex. 21:20 (NIV)
If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property

So I guess slaveholders in the 1800s could biblically justify beating their slaves.

Perhaps you should guess again.

For starters, the Israelites to whom these laws were being given had just been delivered from hard, cruel slavery themselves, so these provisions for the slaves' protection were actually progressive in nature in that they were meant to hinder slave owners from using cruel punishment upon their slaves. Also, if you had kept reading just a few verses, then you would have read this:

Exodus chapter 21 verses 26 and 27

And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake.
And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.

Again, God made provision for the protection of slaves which if ignored would result in the freedom of the slaves from their masters.

Another Sabbath law given by God,

Ex. 31:15 (NIV)
For six days, work is to be done, but on the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.

So working on Sunday is punishable by death in the Bible.

Sunday is the first day of the week and not the seventh day of the week. Furthermore, when God originally ordained the seventh day Sabbath, He apparently did so as a foreshadowing of the Millennial Reign of Christ. I addressed that recently on another thread and you can check it out at this link if you'd like to:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ation-flood-millions-years-4.html#post2174029

If such is indeed the case and I personally believe that it is, then God's disliking of working on the Sabbath is more in line with ruining the type which it represents in that it suggests that there is no coming rest for the saints of God.

 

[woopydalan]

So, you are still ignoring the part about it being okay to beat a slave as long as he doesn't die.

 

[just-me]

Hello,

I have read these chapters regarding the laws God gives to Moses. Some of these laws seem reasonable, but other laws are completely vicious and vile.

With regard to the Hebrew Servants, in Exodus 21:20,



So I guess slaveholders in the 1800s could biblically justify beating their slaves.

Another Sabbath law given by God,

So working on Sunday is punishable by death in the Bible.

Take the reality of the physical, and put spiritual meanings that compare to them into effect. The law is spiritual and "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. John 4:24

Physical laws are for governing a nation. Spiritual aspects of the same are for governing the individual believer in Christ.

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:15

 

[purgedconscience]

So, you are still ignoring the part about it being okay to beat a slave as long as he doesn't die.

I normally answer with my own commentary, but I'm strapped for time. This ought to help to answer your question...assuming that you actually are looking for an answer:

Bible Says It’s Okay to Beat Your Slave, As Long As They Don’t Die? Exodus 21:20-21?

 

[woopydalan]

I don't want to be argumentative, but the whole thing about a slave loving their master can easily be attributed to Stockholm Syndrome, as in Ex. 21:5.

But anyways, so the article says that the Bible doesn't condone slavery, but the verse in question just gives the punishments. I believe the punishment for a non-lethal beating of a slave (no punishment at all) is unjust, so I will rest my case and move on to Leviticus now.

About the Sabbath, the Bible is very clear that the punishment for working on the Sabbath is death. That is vicious

 

[just-me]

I don't want to be argumentative, but the whole thing about a slave loving their master can easily be attributed to Stockholm Syndrome, as in Ex. 21:5.

But anyways, so the article says that the Bible doesn't condone slavery, but the verse in question just gives the punishments. I believe the punishment for a non-lethal beating of a slave (no punishment at all) is unjust, so I will rest my case and move on to Leviticus now.

About the Sabbath, the Bible is very clear that the punishment for working on the Sabbath is death. That is vicious

Greek meaning for a slave (literal or figurative, involuntary or voluntary; frequently, therefore in a qualified sense of subjection or subserviency):--bond(-man), servant.

Bond-servants were paid for their work. Scottish POWs were sent to the colonies during the English civil war were "indentured servants" paying for the transport. The was a 7 year service, and then they were free to do as they wanted.

Hebrew meaning for slave = a servant:--X bondage, bondman, (bond-)servant, (man-)servant.

Concerning the Sabbath, it was/is a time to do God's work, and to cease from doing work for profit. Israel built tabernacles (booths) on a Sabbath. Jesus healed on the Sabbath. etc. See Hebrews chapter 4

 

[just-me]

Greek meaning for a slave (literal or figurative, involuntary or voluntary; frequently, therefore in a qualified sense of subjection or subserviency):--bond(-man), servant.

Bond-servants were paid for their work. Scottish POWs were sent to the colonies during the English civil war were "indentured servants" paying for the transport. The was a 7 year service, and then they were free to do as they wanted.

Hebrew meaning for slave = a servant:--X bondage, bondman, (bond-)servant, (man-)servant.

Concerning the Sabbath, it was/is a time to do God's work, and to cease from doing work for profit. Israel built tabernacles (booths) on a Sabbath. Jesus healed on the Sabbath. etc. See Hebrews chapter 4

I forgot to say that in the American colonies, sometimes the servant continued to work for the householder after the 7 years were complete, and sometimes they even married the land owners daughters. They went by the old Testament laws. They were well noted for being Presbyterians, (the religion of Scotland at that time) different than today's Presbyterians by a long shot. LOL

 

[GuessWho]

I think the laws are vicious and vile because you read them from your perspective and not from the Hebrew one.

The verses about slavery do not say "it's okay/it's not okay to beat a slave". The verses you cited address a reality (a disturbing one for us) and how to approach the relation master-slave. Slavery was a social component of many ancient civilizations that had a pyramid-like structure where slaves occupied the lowest position. Slavery was not invented by the Hebrew people.

Also, the capital punishment for breaking the Sabbath is really hard for us to understand but again, can we put aside our modern thinking and see the Sabbath, God, the covenant, the election etc., from the perspective of Hebrew people? This little, unimportant people was chosen by God to prepare the Incarnation, to provide the mean of salvation for all mankind. Can we put ourselves in the skin of a Hebrew and feel the joy, responsibility and love they felt towards the living God who chose them (for no specific reason), who showed such personal interest in them and made a covenant with them? After all what God did for them, the Hebrews unanimously regarded Sabbath as a constant reminder that God showed them mercy and love and breaking the Sabbath would be the most infamous act of ingratitude towards their beloved God.

Also, the capital punishment was always avoided and was rarely applied. Because, in general, it wasn't necessary to use such extreme punishment. The Hebrews wanted to be in the right with God out of love and gratitude.

 

[JimmieD]

Perhaps you should guess again.

For starters, the Israelites to whom these laws were being given had just been delivered from hard, cruel slavery themselves, so these provisions for the slaves' protection were actually progressive in nature in that they were meant to hinder slave owners from using cruel punishment upon their slaves. Also, if you had kept reading just a few verses, then you would have read this:

Exodus chapter 21 verses 26 and 27

And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake.
And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.

Again, God made provision for the protection of slaves which if ignored would result in the freedom of the slaves from their masters.

Sunday is the first day of the week and not the seventh day of the week. Furthermore, when God originally ordained the seventh day Sabbath, He apparently did so as a foreshadowing of the Millennial Reign of Christ. I addressed that recently on another thread and you can check it out at this link if you'd like to:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ation-flood-millions-years-4.html#post2174029

If such is indeed the case and I personally believe that it is, then God's disliking of working on the Sabbath is more in line with ruining the type which it represents in that it suggests that there is no coming rest for the saints of God.

I think this is ignoring the fact of slavery - one person could be the legal property of another person. It assumes that people do not have a right to ownership of their own life and do not have a right to their own freedom and liberty. That's really the crux of the matter. There is nothing that can erase this fundamental difference between how Western society views the individual and how the ancient Israelite society viewed the individual (really, it was ancient society in general, not Israelites particularly).

I guess we could try to say that Israelite society was "progressive," but it seems to me they really weren't in this regard. Salves were not treated as equal before the law and Israelites weren't the only ones with rules regulating the treatment of slaves. Fundamentally, salves were the legal property of another person and had very limited protection under the law, and certainly not the same status before the law as the more fortunate.

Let's just all agree that the laws regarding slaves don't apply to anyone because the institution of slavery is evil by it's very nature?

 

[JimmieD]

I don't want to be argumentative, but the whole thing about a slave loving their master can easily be attributed to Stockholm Syndrome, as in Ex. 21:5.

It's not Stockholm Syndrome. "Loving" your master has more to do with loyalty and faithfulness to your master than feelings of adoration.

 

[atwhatcost]

Hello,

I have read these chapters regarding the laws God gives to Moses. Some of these laws seem reasonable, but other laws are completely vicious and vile.

With regard to the Hebrew Servants, in Exodus 21:20,



So I guess slaveholders in the 1800s could biblically justify beating their slaves.

Another Sabbath law given by God,

So working on Sunday is punishable by death in the Bible.

Have you hit the part where you find out what a slave is?

This really sounds like the same old argument from people who hate God. If you're really reading Exodus, you get a sense of what a slave was, who they were, and how all that is completely different from the 1700's and 1800's version of slavery.

 

[woopydalan]

Well, it says in Exodus in that same chapter that a slave is the master's property. That sounds the same as the 1700/1800 version of slavery. The bible says there is no punishment for a non-lethal beating of a slave, for he or she is your property.

 

[woopydalan]

Claim that they are an indentured servant, but how will you justify this verse other than saying that I hate God or that slavery has a different definition? A slave by the bible's definition is the property of the master just as in colonial America and pre-civil war America.

Ex. 21:20
"Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result,

Ex. 21:21
but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.

Can anyone provide a rational reason for why this is God's law? God doesn't say that you should beat your slave, but He certainly says that if you do, and if the slave gets up after a day or two, then the slave master is not to be punished.

 

[just-me]

Well, it says in Exodus in that same chapter that a slave is the master's property. That sounds the same as the 1700/1800 version of slavery. The bible says there is no punishment for a non-lethal beating of a slave, for he or she is your property.

Study the "eye for an eye, tooth for tooth concept, and you will see that the owner of the "slave" suffers consequence. This principle is backed up with the beatitudes that Jesus taught. Take Hebrew culture into consideration. It goes the same about the coat and the cloak that Jesus taught.

 

[GuessWho]

A slave by the bible's definition is the property of the master just as in colonial America and pre-civil war America.

A slave is the property of the master by the definition of slavery itself.

Can anyone provide a rational reason for why this is God's law? God doesn't say that you should beat your slave, but He certainly says that if you do, and if the slave gets up after a day or two, then the slave master is not to be punished.

Although I'm sure you'll stay pissed off, I will give a last try.

I believe that the ancient men (in general) were very violent, their violence was almost like a necessary element of their nature because of the rough times they were living in, with wars, fights, attacks, hunting, etc. Also, the violence, the wars represent a consequence of the fallen world.
So, when God gave the Laws (thousands of years before the coming of Christ), God knew the instinctive violence of men and He understood that this violence doesn't necessarily come from pure, evil hate, but from the fallen nature of the man and from the roughness of those times.
The ancient men was not intellectually and spiritually prepared for the kindness, love and forgiveness taught by Jesus Christ and I believe that this is why, God asks from the ancient man according to his power of understanding.

I don't know if you understand. To me it makes perfect sense.

 

[Magenta]

To me it makes perfect sense.

The way you explained it made perfect sense to me, also

 

[GuessWho]

The way you explained it made perfect sense to me, also

Thank's.

 

[Magenta]

Thank's.

You are welcome!

 

[purgedconscience]

I think this is ignoring the fact of slavery - one person could be the legal property of another person. It assumes that people do not have a right to ownership of their own life and do not have a right to their own freedom and liberty. That's really the crux of the matter. There is nothing that can erase this fundamental difference between how Western society views the individual and how the ancient Israelite society viewed the individual (really, it was ancient society in general, not Israelites particularly).

I guess we could try to say that Israelite society was "progressive," but it seems to me they really weren't in this regard. Salves were not treated as equal before the law and Israelites weren't the only ones with rules regulating the treatment of slaves. Fundamentally, salves were the legal property of another person and had very limited protection under the law, and certainly not the same status before the law as the more fortunate.

Let's just all agree that the laws regarding slaves don't apply to anyone because the institution of slavery is evil by it's very nature?

You may find this a bit harsh, but here is my response to what you've written:

If you actually believe these things, then now would be a good time for you to publicly renounce both Christ and Christianity if you haven't already.

Why do I say this? Well, I say it because Christians are the legal property of Another. Yes, we've been bought with a price and we are no longer our own. In fact, Christians are called servants or slaves all throughout the New Testament and people like Paul, Peter and James, no lightweights, referred to themselves as slaves of the Lord. Chew on this for a minute:

I Corinthians chapter 7 verses 21 thru 23

Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather.
For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.
Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

The same Greek word, doulos, is used here to describe both natural servants or slaves and spiritual servants or slaves. Again, as we just read, Christians were bought with a price. Furthermore, Christians are called to be servants or slaves to righteousness, Romans chapter 6 verse 19, so if you're that opposed to evil slavery, then Christianity isn't for you.