Have we actually been saved?

[KennethC]

OK, but if you commit the least little sin you're going to be fire tender. If you have one lustful thought, then you will be separated from Christ forever and the smoke of your torment will ascend up forever. Watch you walk now.

First your statement is not correct because the difference between a born again believer and a false profession of faith is that the born again believer will repent/confess of those sins when they commit them and a false faith will not.

That and the whole thing about thoughts being sin that will lead to death is false, as Jesus and James both show it is when they turn into lustful feelings that get full grown and control you to come out in action do they lead to death unless they are repented of. (Matthew 5:28, James 1:14-16)

A wrongful thought does not separate you from God and lead to eternal death unless it becomes full grown and becomes action !!!

 

[Willie-T]

For a lot of people, I would say, "No."

Because it all hinges upon understanding WHO Christ is, WHAT He did, and actually BELIEVING it

If you ask many people to explain those questions above, you often will get not much more than vague replies that they "believe in Jesus." When pressed any further, many people honestly can't even tell you what they mean by that statement.

 

[passing_through]

First your statement is not correct because the difference between a born again believer and a false profession of faith is that the born again believer will repent/confess of those sins when they commit them and a false faith will not.

That and the whole thing about thoughts being sin that will lead to death is false, as Jesus and James both show it is when they turn into lustful feelings that get full grown and control you to come out in action do they lead to death unless they are repented of. (Matthew 5:28, James 1:14-16)

A wrongful thought does not separate you from God and lead to eternal death unless it becomes full grown and becomes action !!!

I was just trying to follow you theology, and dwelling on a lustfull thought is sin.

I thought your whole thesis was on Christians can lose their salvation, now I am confused by you.

 

[Magenta]

For a lot of people, I would say, "No."

Because it all hinges upon understanding WHO Christ is, WHAT He did, and actually BELIEVING it

If you ask many people to explain those questions above, you often will get not much more than vague replies that they "believe in Jesus." When pressed any further, many people honestly can't even tell you what they mean by that statement.

It is difficult to be luke warm when you really have been pulled from the flames.

 

[Gr8grace]

I can only answer for myself.
YES I am saved. Have been since July 27, 1962. I will never forget that glorious night!
God gave me ETERNAL life and will NEVER take back that gift.

Im with you brother. Not only do we have the scriptures that tell us we are secure in Christ. I have a personal experience that not one man can take from me.

What a day, what a moment, what a change.............He is Glorious indeed Brother.

 

[KennethC]

I was just trying to follow you theology, and dwelling on a lustfull thought is sin.

I thought your whole thesis was on Christians can lose their salvation, now I am confused by you.

Well Jesus (Matthew 24:10-13), Apostle Paul (Colossians 1:22-23, Acts 20:28-31), Holy Spirit (1 Timothy 4:1), and Hebrews 3:12-14 all show some falling away/departing from the faith and not receiving eternal life.

What one must understand as what is said in 1 John 5:16 that there are sins that lead to death, and sins that do not lead to death. Those sins that lead to death are unrepented sins and sins done deliberately to where one's actions show their repentance/confession was not a truthful one. Sins that do not lead to death are those that have been repented of, or have been stopped while they remained only a thought.

Remember again James 1:15 says only when the sin becomes full grown does it lead to eternal death, not when it is still in a thought stage. If thoughts themselves lead to eternal death then everybody rather a believer or not is condemned, which is not what the bible says !!!

 

[KennethC]

For a lot of people, I would say, "No."

Because it all hinges upon understanding WHO Christ is, WHAT He did, and actually BELIEVING it

If you ask many people to explain those questions above, you often will get not much more than vague replies that they "believe in Jesus." When pressed any further, many people honestly can't even tell you what they mean by that statement.

I actually agree with you here because I have asked a number of people this exact question of what it means to believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior.

They do one of three things:

Either they have no answer, say just believe in Jesus, or try their hardest to leave off passages such as Luke 6:46-49, Luke 12:43-49, and Matthew 25.

 

[passing_through]

Well Jesus (Matthew 24:10-13), Apostle Paul (Colossians 1:22-23, Acts 20:28-31), Holy Spirit (1 Timothy 4:1), and Hebrews 3:12-14 all show some falling away/departing from the faith and not receiving eternal life.

What one must understand as what is said in 1 John 5:16 that there are sins that lead to death, and sins that do not lead to death. Those sins that lead to death are unrepented sins and sins done deliberately to where one's actions show their repentance/confession was not a truthful one. Sins that do not lead to death are those that have been repented of, or have been stopped while they remained only a thought.

Remember again James 1:15 says only when the sin becomes full grown does it lead to eternal death, not when it is still in a thought stage. If thoughts themselves lead to eternal death then everybody rather a believer or not is condemned, which is not what the bible says !!!

I disagree with what you get out of those scriptures.

I am going to move on from the thread, read into that what you will. ??????

 

[BarlyGurl]

This devilish doctrine causes fear in God's people who are babes or not equipped with the word.

I think you should be very careful about what or who you call devilish. Babe's should have some FEAR, also known as HOLY REVERENCE so that they are stirred to seek and grow in knowledge and wisdom through the scriptures.

The scripture is CLEAR, you must be born again! if you are, then you are a BABY irrespective of your "human age".

FEAR OF GOD is GOOD!!!!
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline (Proverbs 1:7).
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding (Psalm 111:10).
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding (Proverbs 9:10).
But he stands alone, and who can oppose him? He does whatever he pleases. He carries out his decree against me, and many such plans he still has in store. That is why I am terrified before him; when I think of all this, I fear him. God has made my heart faint; the Almighty has terrified me (Job 23:13-16).
“Should you not fear me?" declares the Lord. "Should you not tremble in my presence?" (Jeremiah 5:22).
Serve the LORD with fear and rejoice with trembling (Psalm 2:11).
The fear of the LORD is pure, enduring forever (Psalm 19:9).
Let all the earth fear the LORD; let all the people of the world revere him (Psalm 33:8).
Come, my children, listen to me; I will teach you the fear of the LORD (Psalm 34:11).
Teach me your way, O LORD, and I will walk in your truth; give me an undivided heart, that I may fear your name (Psalm 86:11).
Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man (Ecclesiastes 12:13).

I agree with GOD.... apparently YOU don't.

 

[Magenta]

When fear has done its job and propelled us into better understanding
with the help of the Holy Spirit of God, then perfect love casts out fear.

 

[ember]

Marc have you ever looked at James 2:14 as deliverance in this life? Not as justification unto salvation.

Once we are saved/born again, our object of faith becomes the mind of Christ.......bible doctrine.

If we don't grow in grace and knowledge(Faith) in this life we will not have the right kind of faith to deliver us the right works in everyday situations.

I believe this is why James goes right into a real world situation that requires the right kind of discernment in a real life situation.

If we don't make bible doctrine the object of our faith after we are saved, we will not have the right kind of faith to save us in everyday situations and problems. We will just have human solutions and not divine solutions.

I lean more to the idea James is talking about being saved(delivered) in our everyday activities and situations. With out bible doctrine as the object of our faith...........its useless and dead to deliver us from problems and provide divine solutions for us or others when we need them.

Bible doctrine never becomes the object of our faith.

Jesus Christ is the object...actually Person...of our faith. We never depend on doctrine for our faith ... faith does not issue from doctrine

Divine solutions come about by the Spirit of God...not the Bible...you cannot engage doctrine and make it work for you

 

[KennethC]

I disagree with what you get out of those scriptures.

I am going to move on from the thread, read into that what you will. ������

You can disagree all you want but that is what they say but good luck on your path and growing in the word !!!

 

[KennethC]

Bible doctrine never becomes the object of our faith.

Jesus Christ is the object...actually Person...of our faith. We never depend on doctrine for our faith ... faith does not issue from doctrine

Divine solutions come about by the Spirit of God...not the Bible...you cannot engage doctrine and make it work for you

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

Titus 1:9
Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

Titus 2:1
But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

2 Timothy 4:2
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.


1 Timothy 6:3
If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

 

[ember]

19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.Righteousness Through Faith21But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.22This righteousness is given through faith in[SUP]h[/SUP] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

24and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[SUP]i[/SUP] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.

28For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

 

[ember]

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

Titus 1:9
Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

Titus 2:1
But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

2 Timothy 4:2
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.


1 Timothy 6:3
If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

The problem appears to be understanding what sound doctrine consists of.

Faith saves, doctrine does not.

At any rate, your verses have nothing to do with what I wrote.

Check out the verses from Romans I posted as they indicate the actual doctrine one needs to ACCEPT and believe in order to be acceptable to God

Your works and your doctrine do not save

 

[Willie-T]

I actually agree with you here because I have asked a number of people this exact question of what it means to believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior.

They do one of three things:

Either they have no answer, say just believe in Jesus, or try their hardest to leave off passages such as Luke 6:46-49, Luke 12:43-49, and Matthew 25.

Well, we are still not on the same page, it seems. All you seem to be doing is just reestablishing yourself back under a law in order to claim to be saved. Really, not much different than the Jews had already been doing for generations. While, I was speaking of understanding who Jesus is, and what and why His death accomplished something that affected our condition.

 

[Josefnospam]

Saved from what?

 

[Willie-T]

Saved from what?

EXACTLY. Jews didn't need to "be saved" from some afterlife hassles. They were solidly convinced that, as Jews, salvation was automatically theirs. They believed it was their right of birth as children of Abraham.

The "Hell" thing was an adopted notion that came back from Babylonia with the exiles.

 

[valiant]

Indeed the mention our salvation comes with our faith to Jesus, and not by any of our actions. In Ephesaisn 2:8, God tell us that "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God". It is further supported by the fact that the thief at the cross got saved simply because he repent and believed in Jesus Christ, he did nothing for the kingdom but yet his faith saved him.


However, is that the whole story? The scriptures I have found in the bible seems to suggest otherwise.


In James 2:14, God tell us "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?". Suggesting work would be required to be saved, then what happen to be saved by grace? Also in Matthew 3:12 He tells us this "His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”. Similar to the scriptures found in Matthew 25 where the unprepared virgins will be left behind. So in another word, we need to be prepared to get saved? Then what happen to the thief at the cross? I seriously doubt he had the time nor the ability to do all those things before dying at the cross.


There are so many things that can take you out of salvation, according to the bible itself.


In 1 John 3:15, God says "Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." As much as we like to forgive everyone we have encountered in our life, its simply impossible to do so. You would be bound to hold grudges against someone at some point at your life. How can one forgives everyone?


Also in Matthew 5:20, God tell us "For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." So we need to be better than the scribes and Pharisees in order to be saved? Then what happen to save by faith? what happen to "Salvation is a gift"?


In Matthew 22:14, God tell us "Many were called, few were chosen", what makes you think you were the few who were choosen? Remember its God who has chosen us, not us who have chosen God. Is there a scripture in the bible that suggest you are the one being selected to go to heaven? If there is, please do tell me.


In Matthew 7:21 God tell us that “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.". I am confused now, so is work now required for salvation? From what I understand, the thief at the cross get a really good deal, he dies immediately after getting saved by Christ. Christian being alive today were being tested in different ways, there is a possibility we can lose our faith if we do not passed those test. (WARNING: THE PREVIOUS STATEMENT MIGHT BE FALSE, THIS IS ONLY MY UNDERSTANDING OF THE BIBLE SO FAR). But just for the sake of discussion, in Romans 10:13 God saids "“everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” So what is it?

It depends on what you mean by being saved.

Do you mean have you everlastingly been saved from the guilt and judgmental power of sin? Then my answer is 'yes, because Jesus Christ bore my sin in His own body on the tree' (Titus 3.5; 1 Peter 2.24).

If you mean are you now saved from the guilt and judgmental power of sin my answer is yes because I have been saved through the unmerited love and favour of God without works (Eph 2.8-9).

If you mean, have you been wholly saved from the power of sin, my reply is no, but it is a work that is in process and is guaranteed to be completed by my Saviour. He is at work in me to will and do of His good pleasure (Phil 2.13) through His cross (1 Cor 1.18).

If you mean have you been totally saved from the very presence of sin my reply is no. But it is something that is guaranteed to me by Christ my Saviour. It will happen when I die.

If you say 'can you lose it?' The answer is NO, it is not mine to lose. Salvation is of the Lord.

Thus I know that all the exhortations and warnings of Scripture are in order to urge me on. But I know that I do not need to fear them because it is CHRIST WHO IS SAVING ME

 

[Gr8grace]

The problem appears to be understanding what sound doctrine consists of.

Faith saves, doctrine does not.

At any rate, your verses have nothing to do with what I wrote.

Check out the verses from Romans I posted as they indicate the actual doctrine one needs to ACCEPT and believe in order to be acceptable to God

Your works and your doctrine do not save

Ember, maybe I wasn't clear in my post? Your responses here don't add up to what I "think" I said.

I ain't the greatest at these darn word things we have to use to communicate!!!

Maybe Marc will answer my post? I think he will see where I am coming from? If not, I will try to splain better