Good manners -- questions. Not a sermon.

[atwhatcost]

[SUB]I'm a bit perplexed. I'm hoping to get some help.

I know we're supposed to love one another. I know we're supposed to press toward being more like Christ. I just don't know how to tell the difference between that and good manners, or even if there is a difference. I suspect there is.

I see people bending over backward and even maybe a little upside down to reprove in a loving way, and I really get they are loving. It's not an act. I'd like to be more like that.

But then I see others being just as loving and yet say things I don't dare say, because it doesn't seem mannerly. (Manners was really drilled into me as a kid -- even before I remembered having anything drilled into me. lol)

And, in both cases, I see the same results -- 90% of the time they get sliced-and-diced by the person they're trying to talk things out with. So, frankly, neither approach seems to work, and it feels like there is no approach that will ever work, except through a major miracle from God.

So, honestly asking? Anyone have any scripture that tells us how to do this? Anyone know the differences of "nice," "mannerly," "boldly," or "God's way" of handling it?

And, yes, I know the go-to verses.

Matt. 15:15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

I just don't know the Biblical way to "tell him his faults." I know what my training is. Not the same thing.

I don't want to be a doormat nor "brutally honest." I want it God's way, but I don't know what that looks like, so does anyone have any verses for that? Including how to react when it doesn't go well? (I'm thinking punching isn't it. lol)[/SUB]

 

[oldthennew]

the very first thing we should always do is to examine ourselves and our motives.

something we have discovered in our Spiritual journey is that our Father will often place certain exaggerated
personalities right in from of us at any given time or place - when we can't get away from them, it's almost
a surety that God is pointing His finger at something in us through them...

the scripture, in numerous places, lets us realize that some will just not receive correction, it tells us that even
if they witness signs and wonders beyond belief, they will still harden their hearts - this is hard to believe,
but oh so true.

during our life-long refining process, we are taught to master/control our emotions for if we don't learn this,
then our emotions will always master us and usually get us into troubles.

one of the positive things about this site is that we are able to go back and examine our words and other
people's responses, and this can result in our improving in our Godly speech patterns which will roll over
into our improving our thoughts and actions in our daily living.....

my wife, after spending several hours with different people in different activities, she will review her speech
for the time she spent with them and see if her conversation was acceptable according to God's standards and she
will discover ways in which she can improve and become the best woman she can be.
she has done this for many years and I have seen her grow in leaps and bounds in her service to God and
fellow man.

no matter if we are working on our speech, anger issues, lust of the flesh issues, insecurities, or anything that
is not pleasing to our Father, we must do all we can to grow into 'our new-man-person' - but knowing that the
case is, that Christ will step-in at a certain point, after our heartfelt efforts and take-on or fulfill the scripture
that He is the Author and Fininsher of our Faith.

as it is written,
And he touched my mouth with it, and said: "behold, this has touched your lips; your iniquity is taken away,
and you sin purged."

 

[oldhermit]

[SUB]I'm a bit perplexed. I'm hoping to get some help.

I know we're supposed to love one another. I know we're supposed to press toward being more like Christ. I just don't know how to tell the difference between that and good manners, or even if there is a difference. I suspect there is.

I see people bending over backward and even maybe a little upside down to reprove in a loving way, and I really get they are loving. It's not an act. I'd like to be more like that.

But then I see others being just as loving and yet say things I don't dare say, because it doesn't seem mannerly. (Manners was really drilled into me as a kid -- even before I remembered having anything drilled into me. lol)

And, in both cases, I see the same results -- 90% of the time they get sliced-and-diced by the person they're trying to talk things out with. So, frankly, neither approach seems to work, and it feels like there is no approach that will ever work, except through a major miracle from God.

So, honestly asking? Anyone have any scripture that tells us how to do this? Anyone know the differences of "nice," "mannerly," "boldly," or "God's way" of handling it?

And, yes, I know the go-to verses.

Matt. 15:15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

I just don't know the Biblical way to "tell him his faults." I know what my training is. Not the same thing.

I don't want to be a doormat nor "brutally honest." I want it God's way, but I don't know what that looks like, so does anyone have any verses for that? Including how to react when it doesn't go well? (I'm thinking punching isn't it. lol)[/SUB]

If you a looking for a methodology that will guarantee a favorable result, I am afraid there isn't one. Some people are simply not receptive to kindness. Some people simply choose to be belligerent and the kinder you are the more angry they become. That's just the way it is. I think we need to strike a balance between the two following passages.

"Finally, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, affectionate, compassionate, and humble. Do not return evil for evil or insult for insult, but instead bless others because you were called to inherit a blessing." 1Peter 3:8-9

"Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing." 2Timothy 4:3.

 

[Willie-T]

I honestly don't care if people remember me as rude, abrupt and harsh... as long as one day a light bulb goes off, and they think, "Willie seemed like a mean ol' codger, but danged if he didn't really deeply care that I got to meet Jesus."

The song "Smiling Faces" put some real meaning in me when I was younger.

 

[Willie-T]

I honestly don't care if people remember me as rude, abrupt and harsh... as long as one day a light bulb goes off, and they think, "Willie seemed like a mean ol' codger, but danged if he didn't really deeply care that I got to meet Jesus."

The song "Smiling Faces" put some real meaning in me when I was younger.

[video=youtube;sV69WBvFGBA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV69WBvFGBA[/video]

 

[Joidevivre]

It helps to always pray before confronting and ask for the Holy Spirit to use you. And then be aware of the presence of Christ with you and the other person the entire time. I know this works - but I don't always remember to do this.

And you can be bold with manners.

Hard to see manners on a website - there is no smile, no soft eye contact, no gently heard words, and no one seen eye level with you. Sometimes I get the feeling that what is being said on some threads is from someone who is standing over you looking down at you!

Scripture tells us to always speak with grace. (Col. 4:6) And in words that minister grace to the hearer. (Eph. 4:29)

 

[oldhermit]

If you a looking for a methodology that will guarantee a favorable result, I am afraid there isn't one. Some people are simply not receptive to kindness. Some people simply choose to be belligerent and the kinder you are the more angry they become. That's just the way it is. I think we need to strike a balance between the two following passages.

"Finally, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, affectionate, compassionate, and humble. Do not return evil for evil or insult for insult, but instead bless others because you were called to inherit a blessing." 1Peter 3:8-9

"Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing." 2Timothy 4:3.

I just noticed, the 2Timoty 4:2 passage is suppose to read "...Refute, warn, and encourage with the utmost patience when you teach."

 

[KennethC]

If you a looking for a methodology that will guarantee a favorable result, I am afraid there isn't one. Some people are simply not receptive to kindness. Some people simply choose to be belligerent and the kinder you are the more angry they become. That's just the way it is. I think we need to strike a balance between the two following passages.

"Finally, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, affectionate, compassionate, and humble. Do not return evil for evil or insult for insult, but instead bless others because you were called to inherit a blessing." 1Peter 3:8-9

"Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing." 2Timothy 4:3.

Yes this is exactly true and we also need to remember to take this into account:

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

When you take and are reproofing, rebuking for correction, and instructing others, if you are not using the Sword (Word of God) then the way you are doing it is wrong. For the scriptures are what we are to use in pointing out to others how they are walking or acting wrong in the faith, and not use conjectured opinions.

When you see a person constantly using scripture over and over again, and the other person/s hardly ever give scripture (Book, chapter, and scripture number) then you know who is following the proper pattern by the Holy Spirit.

The Whole Armor of God:

Helmet - hope of receiving salvation

Breast plate - righteousness

Girdle on waste - full truth of God

shod your feet - prepare yourself

Shield of faith - Holy Spirits received by the Lord to guide you

Sword - Word of God

 

[crossnote]

I'll use the kind tender approach when dealing with babes and those with sincere questions.
I use the 'rougher' more direct approach with those spreading false doctrine.
...Jesus did the same and was still assaulted by the self righteous.
I suppose I could turn the other cheek, nnnn not there yet, and am not convinced that's the right path in these cases.

 

[BarlyGurl]

......JUDE 1:18-23

 

[BarlyGurl]

I just noticed, the 2Timoty 4:2 passage is suppose to read "...Refute, warn, and encourage with the utmost patience when you teach."

Keeping in our mind.... that every twice born person comes from "whatever life circumstances" and by the operation of the HS in them UTMOST PATIENCE is not necessarily executed by the same "method" in person "A" as in you person "B".... but still the HS is manifesting.

 

[atwhatcost]

the very first thing we should always do is to examine ourselves and our motives.

something we have discovered in our Spiritual journey is that our Father will often place certain exaggerated
personalities right in from of us at any given time or place - when we can't get away from them, it's almost
a surety that God is pointing His finger at something in us through them...

the scripture, in numerous places, lets us realize that some will just not receive correction, it tells us that even
if they witness signs and wonders beyond belief, they will still harden their hearts - this is hard to believe,
but oh so true.

during our life-long refining process, we are taught to master/control our emotions for if we don't learn this,
then our emotions will always master us and usually get us into troubles.

one of the positive things about this site is that we are able to go back and examine our words and other
people's responses, and this can result in our improving in our Godly speech patterns which will roll over
into our improving our thoughts and actions in our daily living.....

my wife, after spending several hours with different people in different activities, she will review her speech
for the time she spent with them and see if her conversation was acceptable according to God's standards and she
will discover ways in which she can improve and become the best woman she can be.
she has done this for many years and I have seen her grow in leaps and bounds in her service to God and
fellow man.

no matter if we are working on our speech, anger issues, lust of the flesh issues, insecurities, or anything that
is not pleasing to our Father, we must do all we can to grow into 'our new-man-person' - but knowing that the
case is, that Christ will step-in at a certain point, after our heartfelt efforts and take-on or fulfill the scripture
that He is the Author and Fininsher of our Faith.

as it is written,
And he touched my mouth with it, and said: "behold, this has touched your lips; your iniquity is taken away,
and you sin purged."

I thought it was God working in us that works. I just wish he'd step in quicker.

(Have I mentioned lately, I really hate this patience stuff? I want that patience NOW! I know people think I'm kidding with that line, but it always seem to come down with my lack of patience, even all these years later.)

 

[Willie-T]

I thought it was God working in us that works. I just wish he'd step in quicker.

(Have I mentioned lately, I really hate this patience stuff? I want that patience NOW! I know people think I'm kidding with that line, but it always seem to come down with my lack of patience, even all these years later.)

No.... Really?

 

[atwhatcost]

If you a looking for a methodology that will guarantee a favorable result, I am afraid there isn't one. Some people are simply not receptive to kindness. Some people simply choose to be belligerent and the kinder you are the more angry they become. That's just the way it is. I think we need to strike a balance between the two following passages.

"Finally, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, affectionate, compassionate, and humble. Do not return evil for evil or insult for insult, but instead bless others because you were called to inherit a blessing." 1Peter 3:8-9

"Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing." 2Timothy 4:3.

Yes, I really am looking for a methodology that guarantees favorable results. But I suspect you're thinking of a different result than I am. I've been a Christian for 43 years and I did telemarketing successfully for 3-5 years. How are the two connected? The key to successful telemarketing is not to give up trying and to know when I have a shot at closing the deal and when it's time to walk away. No hard feelings if the person didn't want the deal even when that deal was me. (I telemarketed myself once to get a new job. It worked, but not on the first call. lol)

There are hard feelings when I'm unsuccessful in reaching a brother. The stakes are higher. (God.) The product is more important. (People's lives.) It gets emotional, and somewhere along the way, it stops being about that and starts being about me. The result I want is less me (no me is better) and more God and others. Somehow I think that is connected to manners, boldness, and "brutal honesty," (which truthfully usually means we've lost prospective so claim that to slam another.)

Have you ever noticed that when most people do that blessing you talk about from 2 Tim., what they're really doing is pretending they're taking the higher ground, because they're really losing? They're angry. It doesn't seem right to use God as a weapon in such a situation, and yet that's how I've always seen people using that. I don't know what properly using that looks like, because of that.

So, yes, I want a favorable result. I want it to work out right in me, even when it's one of many of those times when the only way a person will hear is through that major miracle, but God doesn't give that miracle that time. Then the other major miracle is I walk away knowing God is thinking, "Well done, good and faithful servant" so I didn't screw up. Favorable result.

 

[Willie-T]

Yes, I really am looking for a methodology that guarantees favorable results. But I suspect you're thinking of a different result than I am. I've been a Christian for 43 years and I did telemarketing successfully for 3-5 years. How are the two connected? The key to successful telemarketing is not to give up trying and to know when I have a shot at closing the deal and when it's time to walk away. No hard feelings if the person didn't want the deal even when that deal was me. (I telemarketed myself once to get a new job. It worked, but not on the first call. lol)

There are hard feelings when I'm unsuccessful in reaching a brother. The stakes are higher. (God.) The product is more important. (People's lives.) It gets emotional, and somewhere along the way, it stops being about that and starts being about me. The result I want is less me (no me is better) and more God and others. Somehow I think that is connected to manners, boldness, and "brutal honesty," (which truthfully usually means we've lost prospective so claim that to slam another.)

Have you ever noticed that when most people do that blessing you talk about from 2 Tim., what they're really doing is pretending they're taking the higher ground, because they're really losing? They're angry. It doesn't seem right to use God as a weapon in such a situation, and yet that's how I've always seen people using that. I don't know what properly using that looks like, because of that.

So, yes, I want a favorable result. I want it to work out right in me, even when it's one of many of those times when the only way a person will hear is through that major miracle, but God doesn't give that miracle that time. Then the other major miracle is I walk away knowing God is thinking, "Well done, good and faithful servant" so I didn't screw up. Favorable result.

That was a beautiful post. Not many people have the insight (or guts) to post so openly.

 

[oldthennew]

WOW!!!

the honesty by some in here is so REFRESHING!!!

as pointed out, there are a LOT of aspects to the 'good manners' question that 'atwhatcost' presented.

soul-searching 101 is a must.......may we inquire with humble hearts to our Maker in order for us to grow
in grace and Godly character....
Father, please show us our weaknesses and please give us the strength in You to become stronger and stronger
in Your righteousness and Your Holy Faith...
'



as it is written,
we can do nothing without You.'

 

[atwhatcost]

I honestly don't care if people remember me as rude, abrupt and harsh... as long as one day a light bulb goes off, and they think, "Willie seemed like a mean ol' codger, but danged if he didn't really deeply care that I got to meet Jesus."

The song "Smiling Faces" put some real meaning in me when I was younger.

[video=youtube;sV69WBvFGBA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV69WBvFGBA[/video]

(I remember the song.)

Yeah, there's the difference. This isn't about how people take me. This is about me doing it God's way, not upbringing way, nor my way. Even not caring about how others take me is still caring about how others take me. Me is the center. I want me out of the center. I want God as the center and me serving the master in the best possible way -- his way.

I'm trying to find out what that looks like.

 

[Willie-T]

(I remember the song.)

Yeah, there's the difference. This isn't about how people take me. This is about me doing it God's way, not upbringing way, nor my way. Even not caring about how others take me is still caring about how others take me. Me is the center. I want me out of the center. I want God as the center and me serving the master in the best possible way -- his way.

I'm trying to find out what that looks like.

Well, it's elusive, that's for sure. I had someone on here who I think the world of, PM me and ask me to stop posting what I believe is right, and post things that would make people like me more. It seems that sometimes people feel you need to do that. I don't.

 

[atwhatcost]

It helps to always pray before confronting and ask for the Holy Spirit to use you. And then be aware of the presence of Christ with you and the other person the entire time. I know this works - but I don't always remember to do this.

And you can be bold with manners.

Hard to see manners on a website - there is no smile, no soft eye contact, no gently heard words, and no one seen eye level with you. Sometimes I get the feeling that what is being said on some threads is from someone who is standing over you looking down at you!

Scripture tells us to always speak with grace. (Col. 4:6) And in words that minister grace to the hearer. (Eph. 4:29)

Honest question. Do you think the Holy Spirit answers that prayer quickly all the time?

The reason I ask is I have a strong Mama Bear instinct. I see someone being attacked and my tendency is to swarm all over the attacker. My goal is to stop the person from being attacked even if that means the attacker go after me. My fear in praying is God often takes a long time to get his answer through to me, and meanwhile that person is being attacked.

So, honest question, when you do remember to do that do you get a quick response?

And, yes, I see my problem there too. I'm going to protect that person until God shows up. (Dumb, dumb, dumb concept!!!) So I'm really asking if God shows up in time if I didn't take that approach?

 

[BarlyGurl]

Yes, I really am looking for a methodology that guarantees favorable results. But I suspect you're thinking of a different result than I am. I've been a Christian for 43 years and I did telemarketing successfully for 3-5 years. How are the two connected? The key to successful telemarketing is not to give up trying and to know when I have a shot at closing the deal and when it's time to walk away. No hard feelings if the person didn't want the deal even when that deal was me. (I telemarketed myself once to get a new job. It worked, but not on the first call. lol)

There are hard feelings when I'm unsuccessful in reaching a brother. The stakes are higher. (God.) The product is more important. (People's lives.) It gets emotional, and somewhere along the way, it stops being about that and starts being about me. The result I want is less me (no me is better) and more God and others. Somehow I think that is connected to manners, boldness, and "brutal honesty," (which truthfully usually means we've lost prospective so claim that to slam another.)

Have you ever noticed that when most people do that blessing you talk about from 2 Tim., what they're really doing is pretending they're taking the higher ground, because they're really losing? They're angry. It doesn't seem right to use God as a weapon in such a situation, and yet that's how I've always seen people using that. I don't know what properly using that looks like, because of that.

So, yes, I want a favorable result. I want it to work out right in me, even when it's one of many of those times when the only way a person will hear is through that major miracle, but God doesn't give that miracle that time. Then the other major miracle is I walk away knowing God is thinking, "Well done, good and faithful servant" so I didn't screw up. Favorable result.

I could write a post likened to yours, but my words would be different... because we are different... but my heart yearns in the same manner. God looks at the inward man.... so if I wrote that corresponding post <as mentioned above> should we lay them side by side and let people critique who did it better... or would it be more pleasing to the LORD to ask Him to help us discern with our spiritually eyes and see HIM expressed in the two?